2nd Round Gonzo vs. BBN93/Aike

[DraftCat]

Draft Bracket - http://challonge.com/vgm0ajvi

gonzocat90 - Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green, Chris Paul, Avery Bradley, Markelle Fultz, Steven Adams, Brook Lopez, Gary Harris, Robert Covington, Ricky Rubio, Lauri Markkanen, Marcus Morris

John Wall, Klay Thompson, Blake Griffin, Nerlens Noel, Zach LaVine, Clint Capela, Goran Dragic, Joe Ingles, RHJ, James Johnson, Domantis Sabonis, Caris Lavert


This is the playoffs who has the best team and will win the most championships over a 7 year period. Please vote. This round ends 8/17 at 10:00 PM Est.

 

[GonzoCat90]

My case:

To start, I have the best defensive team in the league. Paul, Kawhi and Draymond were first team all defense (again) with Kawhi and Draymond finishing at the top of the DPOY voting. Plus, Avery Bradley has been in the past and players were outraged that he wasn't selected this year.

I have three guys who finished top 30 in blocks, and FIVE of the top 9 in steals per game (draymond 1, CP3 3, Covington 4, kawhi 7, Rubio 9)

My team is build for the modern NBA, and my defensive stars can all guard multiple positions.

My best offensive lineup (and starters in many cases) has 3 20 point scorers and all five guys made 1.5 threes per game.

I also have three of the top ten in assists with CP3, Draymond and Rubio.

From a pure talent level, I have three of the fifteen best players in the league, the number one overall draft pick (who experts say is the next DWade or James Harden), a slew of versatile forwards that can play in the post of perimeter.

Defense, offense, shooting, passing, steals, rim protection, versatility. The perfect fit for the modern NBA.

Remember, this is the team that will win the most titles in the next 7 years. Not the team you want to cheer for because John Wall is on it and the other has Draymond Green. The best team. Best. Not favorite.

 

[drcats2013]

No offense to the other team, as it was not all drafted by Aike, but this shouldn't be close. The fact it is 4-4 right now has to be the John Wall and Noel factor. Love to hear someone argue against team Gonzo in this particular matchup.

 

[WildMoon]

No offense to the other team, as it was not all drafted by Aike, but this shouldn't be close. The fact it is 4-4 right now has to be the John Wall and Noel factor. Love to hear someone argue against team Gonzo in this particular matchup.

Yeah. I thought this is a blow out. But 4-5 for BBN/aike.

Interested to hear the opposing argument.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Yeah. I thought this is a blow out. But 4-5 for BBN/aike.

Interested to hear the opposing argument.

"We'd like to win this thing and this is our chance to get the best team out of here."

 

[Rupp'sRunt]

"We'd like to win this thing and this is our chance to get the best team out of here."

I think counting the first nine votes for a leader is early. We've been averaging around 35-40 votes

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I'd like to see starting lineups before I choose. I have issues with both teams from my admittedly ignorant position.

 

[hotelblue]

gonzo i didn't vote for you in the first round but this round you get it imo. funny how matchups play out in a tournament.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I'd like to see starting lineups before I choose. I have issues with both teams from my admittedly ignorant position.

Starting lineups are relatively meaningless, because against certain opponents I would do what the Warriors have done for a few years and play Draymond at the 5 with Kawhi playing a sort of ultra-Iguodala at the 4 and play small ball with tons of shooters and speed but staying elite defensively.

For the sake of discussion, I'd start:

Paul
Bradley
Kawhi
Draymond
Adams

Fultz would sub 1-3, Lopez would sub in at the 5 to give the second unit more scoring punch, Harris would sub the 2-3. Covington the 2-4. Morris the 3-5. Markkanen the 4-5. Rubio the 1.

"Second string" would be:

Rubio (until Fultz learns the point)
Fultz
Harris
Convington/Morris
Lopez/Morris/Markkanen

Could go huge with Lopez/Markkanen/Draymond/Kawhi/Fultz or switch Lauri for RoCo or Morris to stay big but quicker. Still a floor full of shooters and great defensively.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Starting lineups are relatively meaningless, because against certain opponents I would do what the Warriors have done for a few years and play Draymond at the 5 with Kawhi playing a sort of ultra-Iguodala at the 4 and play small ball with tons of shooters and speed but staying elite defensively.

For the sake of discussion, I'd start:

Paul
Bradley
Kawhi
Draymond
Adams

Fultz would sub 1-3, Lopez would sub in at the 5 to give the second unit more scoring punch, Harris would sub the 2-3. Covington the 2-4. Morris the 3-5. Markkanen the 4-5. Rubio the 1.

"Second string" would be:

Rubio (until Fultz learns the point)
Fultz
Harris
Convington/Morris
Lopez/Morris/Markkanen

Could go huge with Lopez/Markkanen/Draymond/Kawhi/Fultz or switch Lauri for RoCo or Morris to stay big but quicker. Still a floor full of shooters and great defensively.

Thanks

 

[hotelblue]

i think your best draftee to complete your look was bradley. he can take over at point and guard the one and two. i like the moving parts of three of your top four. it's fun trying create your own dynamic. and they are all still young. the only possible problem i see is if you're going to be a slow it down team with paul running things or if you're going to let green, bradley, kawhi run.

 

[GonzoCat90]

i think your best draftee to complete your look was bradley. he can take over at point and guard the one and two. i like the moving parts of three of your top four. it's fun trying create your own dynamic. and they are all still young. the only possible problem i see is if you're going to be a slow it down team with paul running things or if you're going to let green, bradley, kawhi run.

They should be so good defensively that it turns into transition, especially with guys like Draymond that can start the break from the forward spot.

In the half court, I like a lot of side pick and roll with CP3 and Draymond, with Bradley in the corner and Adams on the baseline. Overload that side, make them guard the pick and roll/pop, the Adams lob and the Bradley 3 and leave Kawhi on the weakside for CP3 to swing it to with that whole side of the floor to work with.

When we do that, Draymond goes to the weak corner (and rises to the wing as Kawhi drives) and CP3 is out top to catch and shoot if Kawhi doesn't score one on one.

Fultz was also tremendous in the pick and roll in college. When he and CP3 play together, Kawhi and Draymond go to the corners and we use Lopez to pick and roll/pop since he made nearly 2 threes per game this year.

Can also let Draymond be the ballhandler in the pick and roll and let Fultz dive against smaller guards or even run it with Kawhi as the screener.

 

[bbn93]

Sorry I kinda bailed out on the draft. I don't know what happened. I couldn't even find the thread the pics were being made and just assumed it died out. My bad guys.

 

[bbn93]

I made some adjustments to my account to try to keep from getting 100 emails a day and must have somehow blocked myself from the thread. I'm not the most internet savy person around. Again, sorry guys.

 

[Aike]

Been busy and had no idea this had been posted yet. Too bad there's no tagging feature .

Let's make a case, shall we?

My backcourt is the best in this bracket, and exactly the right age to perform at its peak throughout the seven years of this league.

So yeah, everything begins with John Wall and Klay Thompson.

Others have been pointing to Klay Thompson as an all-time top three three point shooter. I can't argue with that.

John Wall is not only elite, but he will only be 33 in the final season. Chris Paul turns 33 this season. That has to matter.

Avery Bradley is a nice little player. He's well respected. But Wall still put up 25/10 on the defensive ace in the Eastern Conference Playoffs.

Which brings us to defense. I get it. Gonzo has a tough defensive unit. But offense wins games in the modern NBA, as long as there is enough D.

So really, how does Gonzo's D stop this unit? Wall out top, Klay Thompson on one wing and Joe Ingles on the other. Ingles was THIRD in the league in 3 point percentage, by the way.

If you want maximum offense, how about sliding James Johnson in at the 4 and Blake Griffin at the small ball 5?

I realized Johnson isn't a big name, but read up on him. There's a reason Miami just handed him $60 mil.

People love to hate on Blake Griffin, but he was third in MVP voting a couple of years back, prior to a bad decision or two and a couple of nick nack injuries.

Back to D, I can certainly roll with Capella or Noel at the 5 and slide Blake to the 4.

Everyone knows that Klay can lockdown anybody, but did you know that Wall is 8th in the league in steals percentage, and Joe Ingles is 16th?

Or that Ingles and James Johnson are both top 20 in overall defensive rating? Bet you didn't know that.

So overall, we have the league's best pure point guard in his prime years.

We have an all time great three point shooter on one wing and the guy on the other wing only shot top three in the league.

We have a sneaky good defensive team, one that rates out much better than one might expect. It's a team built to turn you over, get out in transition, and knock down a three.

And half court is ok too. If John Wall can feast on a pick and roll with Gortat, how will he look with Blake Griffin?

So we've got the squad, and while Gonzo has a nice defensive unit, he simply doesn't have the firepower necessary to overcome the offense that we will unleash.

Combine that with his aging point guard, and it is painfully clear that the BBN/Aike team is better constructed for a 7 year run. All due respect.

 

[Aike]

"We'd like to win this thing and this is our chance to get the best team out of here."

You think that's why I'm behind? I'm not usually that paranoid, but may be?

 

[bbn93]

Wall was not a reach at number 10, His best years are still ahead of him. He's imo the best passer in the game, averaging close to double digits in assist for his career without having much help other than beal.
Noel may have been picked a little early but he wouldn't have been available in the next round and youth and rim protection was our only weakness.
I also think Draymond Green is a little overrated. Without the 2 best 3 point shooters in history I think he's just a defensive stopper, role player. Put him on say the mavs, or basically any other team and I don't think he sniffs an all-star game.

I think we have the perfect combination of youth, shooting, potential and rim protection. We also likely have the most athletic team in the league with, Wall, Lavine, Griffin, noel, capella and rondae Hollis-jefferson who projects to be a great defender inside and out for the next 7 years.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Next round it would be nice if the biased message board media wouldn't match me up with an opponent that has two built-in votes. Sad!

 

[GonzoCat90]

In all seriousness, I love John Wall. I'm a noted Klay Thompson defender against the notion that he's some wannabe scrub like Brad Beal or no-defense playing gunner like Booker.

I also like Capela (and think he's probably under appreciated here) and Lavine (if he's right after the knee injury, which I hope he is).

But on no planet is a team with Blake Griffin as its only "interior" presence (if you count 17 foot jumpers as the interior) going to beat a team with the three best perimeter defenders in the league. Especially when no one besides Wall can get their own shot. And Draymond will destroy Blake Griffin, mentally and physically. Assuming he even plays in the games against us.

As much as I like Klay, he's famous for how few dribbles/seconds he has the ball on his big scoring nights. Cut the head off of the snake (take your pick: CP3, Bradley, Kawhi, Draymond, Rubio, Harris) and let's see if Joe Ingles is good enough to beat me. Or even score on Kawhi.

I don't look at these matchups as a "who would win head to head" kind of thing, so against teams with someone like Kyrie out front, Wall can run the show nicely. But it's impossible to consider one team who couldn't beat the other as the more likely champion over a 7 year stretch.

 

[Aike]

In all seriousness, I love John Wall. I'm a noted Klay Thompson defender against the notion that he's some wannabe scrub like Brad Beal or no-defense playing gunner like Booker.

I also like Capela (and think he's probably under appreciated here) and Lavine (if he's right after the knee injury, which I hope he is).

But on no planet is a team with Blake Griffin as its only "interior" presence (if you count 17 foot jumpers as the interior) going to beat a team with the three best perimeter defenders in the league. Especially when no one besides Wall can get their own shot. And Draymond will destroy Blake Griffin, mentally and physically. Assuming he even plays in the games against us.

As much as I like Klay, he's famous for how few dribbles/seconds he has the ball on his big scoring nights. Cut the head off of the snake (take your pick: CP3, Bradley, Kawhi, Draymond, Rubio, Harris) and let's see if Joe Ingles is good enough to beat me. Or even score on Kawhi.

I don't look at these matchups as a "who would win head to head" kind of thing, so against teams with someone like Kyrie out front, Wall can run the show nicely. But it's impossible to consider one team who couldn't beat the other as the more likely champion over a 7 year stretch.

Gonzo, you know better than to think your team would actually lock ours down defensively.

John Wall is a blur, Klay Thompson needs a millisecond to get off one of the sweetest strokes of all time, and yes, Joe Ingles really is a top three three point shooter RIGHT NOW.

Draymond is a front runner, and the chemistry on your team is bound to be caustic, especially as Chris Paul ages and breaks down.

An old hobbled Paul listening to Draymond run his mouth while Steven Adams bangs both of their heads together? Should be fun.

Poor Kawhi. He really deserved better.

And this is the modern NBA. Blake Griffin has hit a couple of bumps along the way, but he can sleep walk his way to 22/8. For that matter, he proved years ago that he can go ham on the interior when he's featured there. The Deandre Jordan years have only made that less of a necessity.

And imagine the breath of fresh air for Blake, finally getting away from Chris Paul.

I haven't even gotten into the complementary young pieces. Sabonis is a big who can do a bit of everything. RHJ is a lockdown defender. Caris Levert might be the next Reggie Miller. And LaVine is an exciting, explosive ball handler wing combo.

But the key is that throughout these 7 years, we will thrive with the backcourt of Wall and Klay. The pick and roll primacy of Blake. The interior D of Noel and Capella. It's a recipe for Seamless Success.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Been busy and had no idea this had been posted yet. Too bad there's no tagging feature .

Let's make a case, shall we?

My backcourt is the best in this bracket, and exactly the right age to perform at its peak throughout the seven years of this league.

So yeah, everything begins with John Wall and Klay Thompson.

Others have been pointing to Klay Thompson as an all-time top three three point shooter. I can't argue with that.

John Wall is not only elite, but he will only be 33 in the final season. Chris Paul turns 33 this season. That has to matter.

Avery Bradley is a nice little player. He's well respected. But Wall still put up 25/10 on the defensive ace in the Eastern Conference Playoffs.

Which brings us to defense. I get it. Gonzo has a tough defensive unit. But offense wins games in the modern NBA, as long as there is enough D.

So really, how does Gonzo's D stop this unit? Wall out top, Klay Thompson on one wing and Joe Ingles on the other. Ingles was THIRD in the league in 3 point percentage, by the way.

If you want maximum offense, how about sliding James Johnson in at the 4 and Blake Griffin at the small ball 5?

I realized Johnson isn't a big name, but read up on him. There's a reason Miami just handed him $60 mil.

People love to hate on Blake Griffin, but he was third in MVP voting a couple of years back, prior to a bad decision or two and a couple of nick nack injuries.

Back to D, I can certainly roll with Capella or Noel at the 5 and slide Blake to the 4.

Everyone knows that Klay can lockdown anybody, but did you know that Wall is 8th in the league in steals percentage, and Joe Ingles is 16th?

Or that Ingles and James Johnson are both top 20 in overall defensive rating? Bet you didn't know that.

So overall, we have the league's best pure point guard in his prime years.

We have an all time great three point shooter on one wing and the guy on the other wing only shot top three in the league.

We have a sneaky good defensive team, one that rates out much better than one might expect. It's a team built to turn you over, get out in transition, and knock down a three.

And half court is ok too. If John Wall can feast on a pick and roll with Gortat, how will he look with Blake Griffin?

So we've got the squad, and while Gonzo has a nice defensive unit, he simply doesn't have the firepower necessary to overcome the offense that we will unleash.

Combine that with his aging point guard, and it is painfully clear that the BBN/Aike team is better constructed for a 7 year run. All due respect.

I tend to agree. Paul is old, Bradley is below average offensively and overrated defensively and Fultz is unproven. Yes he was picked #1 but so was Anthony Bennett. I just don't see enough offense from Gonzo's team.

 

[Aike]

I tend to agree. Paul is old, Bradley is below average offensively and overrated defensively and Fultz is unproven. Yes he was picked #1 but so was Anthony Bennett. I just don't see enough offense from Gonzo's team.

That's where I'm coming down, and I didn't even pick my entire team.

I like Gonzo's team, but I don't like it for 7 years. And I don't think they have the firepower to hang at the highest levels in today's NBA.

Maybe they let them get one championship, but the league doesn't want slugfest after slugfest, year after year.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I tend to agree. Paul is old, Bradley is below average offensively and overrated defensively and Fultz is unproven. Yes he was picked #1 but so was Anthony Bennett. I just don't see enough offense from Gonzo's team.

16 a game while defending the opposition's best player is below average offensively? And overrated defensively by who? The guys he plays against?

Fultz is unproven, but the Bennett comparison is lazy and dumb. I haven't seen a single reputable person that thinks he'll be anything but good. Brandon Roy is his floor.

If you need more offense than:

20/10 with elite percentages
16 with 2 made threes on good percentages
27 a game on elite percentages
12/8 assists with 1.5 made threes from your PF
and 21 a game with 1.7 made threes from your center

Plus Fultz, Harris (15 a game on 50-40 shooting), Covington (top 30 in made 3's, 14 PPG), Markkanen, Morris (14 PPG with more than 1 three per from a PF) and Rubio as an elite passer

then you sure aren't finding it in a team with John Wall's broken jumper, Capela, Noel, RHJ, LaVert and Sabonis. He's got four guys who shouldn't have been drafted. He built an "athletic, defensive" team that isn't as good defensively as mine.

 

[Aike]

16 a game while defending the opposition's best player is below average offensively? And overrated defensively by who? The guys he plays against?

Fultz is unproven, but the Bennett comparison is lazy and dumb. I haven't seen a single reputable person that thinks he'll be anything but good. Brandon Roy is his floor.

If you need more offense than:

20/10 with elite percentages
16 with 2 made threes on good percentages
27 a game on elite percentages
12/8 assists with 1.5 made threes from your PF
and 21 a game with 1.7 made threes from your center

Plus Fultz, Harris (15 a game on 50-40 shooting), Covington (top 30 in made 3's, 14 PPG), Markkanen, Morris (14 PPG with more than 1 three per from a PF) and Rubio as an elite passer

then you sure aren't finding it in a team with John Wall's broken jumper, Capela, Noel, RHJ, LaVert and Sabonis. He's got four guys who shouldn't have been drafted. He built an "athletic, defensive" team that isn't as good defensively as mine.

Yeah, not as good defensively now, but still awfully good. And probably better once Chris Paul gets good and gimpy but refuses to leave the court.

And clearly the better offensive team now and forever. Even Karl Hess could make that one out.

So who are the 4 that shouldn't have been drafted? What did we draft, 144 players? You see four guys who won't be top 144 in the league over the next 7 seasons?

You have two completely unproven rookies with zero production, but you don't see me calling you out over that. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they will be decent toward the end of the seven years. About the same time your pg is a shattered, shell of a man.

And we've all seen how Fultz looks leading a team, so who wouldn't love that?

 

[drcats2013]

I can't believe this one is this close after Gonzo destroyed my team first round that is CLEARLY better than his opponents here. I guess that U.K. Bias was true. Didn't think it would get in the way of rational thinking, but I guess that was just me being naive.

 

[Aike]

I can't believe this one is this close after Gonzo destroyed my team first round that is CLEARLY better than his opponents here. I guess that U.K. Bias was true. Didn't think it would get in the way of rational thinking, but I guess that was just me being naive.

If you're such a rational thinker, why did you draft Carmelo Anthony?

 

[drcats2013]

Because as an 8th round pick he was a steal. As a scorer, the guy has a good 4-5 years left at least of effectiveness. Laugh all u want, your team sucks lol not your fault though. U didn't draft them all. It just shouldn't be that close. I am salty.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

16 a game while defending the opposition's best player is below average offensively? And overrated defensively by who? The guys he plays against?

Fultz is unproven, but the Bennett comparison is lazy and dumb. I haven't seen a single reputable person that thinks he'll be anything but good. Brandon Roy is his floor.

If you need more offense than:

20/10 with elite percentages
16 with 2 made threes on good percentages
27 a game on elite percentages
12/8 assists with 1.5 made threes from your PF
and 21 a game with 1.7 made threes from your center

Plus Fultz, Harris (15 a game on 50-40 shooting), Covington (top 30 in made 3's, 14 PPG), Markkanen, Morris (14 PPG with more than 1 three per from a PF) and Rubio as an elite passer

then you sure aren't finding it in a team with John Wall's broken jumper, Capela, Noel, RHJ, LaVert and Sabonis. He's got four guys who shouldn't have been drafted. He built an "athletic, defensive" team that isn't as good defensively as mine.

Lazy and dumb huh? This is a game about opinions. Sorry you don't like ones that differ with yours. You deserve to lose for that alone.

 

[Aike]

Because as an 8th round pick he was a steal. As a scorer, the guy has a good 4-5 years left at least of effectiveness. Laugh all u want, your team sucks lol not your fault though. U didn't draft them all. It just shouldn't be that close. I am salty.

That you are.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Lazy and dumb huh? This is a game about opinions. Sorry you don't like ones that differ with yours. You deserve to lose for that alone.

Differing opinions are fun. Terrible opinions are worthless, especially in an area where there are almost endless statistics to measure and compare and countless experts who discuss things at length.

You might as well say Markkanen might die because he was a high draft pick and Len Bias died or he's European like Drazen Petrovic. So yes, lazy and dumb.

Fultz could just as easily be Magic Johnson, but it would be idiotic of me to try and argue that point. I would assume anyone engaging in this time waster has actually seen the number one overall pick play a substantial amount of basketball and could discern that dismissing him as a "potential bust" would go against all of the evidence we've seen.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Differing opinions are fun. Terrible opinions are worthless, especially in an area where there are almost endless statistics to measure and compare and countless experts who discuss things at length.

You might as well say Markkanen might die because he was a high draft pick and Len Bias died or he's European like Drazen Petrovic. So yes, lazy and dumb.

Fultz could just as easily be Magic Johnson, but it would be idiotic of me to try and argue that point. I would assume anyone engaging in this time waster has actually seen the number one overall pick play a substantial amount of basketball and could discern that dismissing him as a "potential bust" would go against all of the evidence we've seen.

The simple point was, you have no idea whether or not Fultz will be good in the NBA. That is accurate and using an easy example that it does happen, even with 1st picks is valid whether you like it or not.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Yeah, not as good defensively now, but still awfully good. And probably better once Chris Paul gets good and gimpy but refuses to leave the court.

And clearly the better offensive team now and forever. Even Karl Hess could make that one out.

So who are the 4 that shouldn't have been drafted? What did we draft, 144 players? You see four guys who won't be top 144 in the league over the next 7 seasons?

You have two completely unproven rookies with zero production, but you don't see me calling you out over that. I give them the benefit of the doubt that they will be decent toward the end of the seven years. About the same time your pg is a shattered, shell of a man.

And we've all seen how Fultz looks leading a team, so who wouldn't love that?

Fultz and Markkanen haven't had a chance to prove themselves in the NBA. Would you argue that what they've shown in college and/or summer league suggests they won't contribute significantly on offense?

That's different than a guy like RHJ who in two years on a team that spent a high pick on him and had every reason to try and groom or showcase him has scored 7 points on 43% shooting and 20% from deep. Or a guy like Nerlens who has a negative Offensive BPM for his career?

I realize you drafted those guys for defense, and they're good in that area. I used them as examples of guys you have that hurt you on offense in response to a comment that your team was better offensively.

I won't even mention John Wall's shooting, particularly in elimination games (8/18, 1/8 from three..wonder if Avery Bradley guarded him). Or how Klay Thompson shot under 40% from the field and from 3 (which has happened in three of his five pro seasons) to average just 15 PPG in the playoffs this year.

 

[GonzoCat90]

The simple point was, you have no idea whether or not Fultz will be good in the NBA. That is accurate and using an easy example that it does happen, even with 1st picks is valid whether you like it or not.

I do have some idea, based on lots and lots of data and historical trends. I've never personally played in the NBA either, but it would be foolish to say we have no idea if I would be any good or not. It's a lazy way to be dismissive of a fantastic young player.

Now, if you want to try and make a reasoned argument why you think Fultz will be a bust, go ahead. I'll counter it with statistics and quotes from experts. That's the fun of this whole thing in the dead part of the summer. But just because something is an opinion doesn't mean it can go unchallenged and be accepted.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I can't believe this one is this close after Gonzo destroyed my team first round that is CLEARLY better than his opponents here. I guess that U.K. Bias was true. Didn't think it would get in the way of rational thinking, but I guess that was just me being naive.

I wonder how many people know Blake Griffin isn't the guy who jumps over cars in commercials anymore and that Nerlens can't find a team to give him a contract?

Not much you can do besides make your points, support them with data and hope for the best.

Do think it's a bit fuzzy that I'm playing a team with two owners in a voting situation, though. I would hope people don't vote in their own polls, but who's to say?

 

[Aike]

Fultz and Markkanen haven't had a chance to prove themselves in the NBA. Would you argue that what they've shown in college and/or summer league suggests they won't contribute significantly on offense?

That's different than a guy like RHJ who in two years on a team that spent a high pick on him and had every reason to try and groom or showcase him has scored 7 points on 43% shooting and 20% from deep. Or a guy like Nerlens who has a negative Offensive BPM for his career?

I realize you drafted those guys for defense, and they're good in that area. I used them as examples of guys you have that hurt you on offense in response to a comment that your team was better offensively.

I won't even mention John Wall's shooting, particularly in elimination games (8/18, 1/8 from three..wonder if Avery Bradley guarded him). Or how Klay Thompson shot under 40% from the field and from 3 (which has happened in three of his five pro seasons) to average just 15 PPG in the playoffs this year.

I specifically said I wasn't going to criticize the lack of experience of your young guys, and there you go bringing it up.

I especially wasn't going to mention that Fultz went 13-18 trying to lead a college team. I wouldn't do that to you since you're depending on him to take over when Chris Paul, inevitably, gives up the ghost.

I'll also try to win more games than everyone else, so I won't play a game seven in Boston Garden.

And I just might not worry too much about Klay Thompson's production. He looked awfully good as Steph's sidekick on his way to one Title and one almost.

Why did they lose that second one, anyway? I seem to recall Draymond going all Grayson Allen on somebody. But I am becoming forgetful.

As far as offense, a lineup of Wall/Klay/Ingles/Johnson/Blake is literally unguardable at the NBA level.

It's also more than solid defensively at 4 spots.

So occasionally I'll bring in Nerlens to ratchet up the interior D or RHJ for an extra lockdown wing. I think that will work ok.

Or let's see what Caris Levert looks like on that wing in a couple years. At least one writer sees SUPERSTAR potential:

https://nothinbutnets.com/2017/05/06/nets-caris-levert-superstar-potential/

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I do have some idea, based on lots and lots of data and historical trends. I've never personally played in the NBA either, but it would be foolish to say we have no idea if I would be any good or not. It's a lazy way to be dismissive of a fantastic young player.

Now, if you want to try and make a reasoned argument why you think Fultz will be a bust, go ahead. I'll counter it with statistics and quotes from experts. That's the fun of this whole thing in the dead part of the summer. But just because something is an opinion doesn't mean it can go unchallenged and be accepted.

Thats fine but you can at least be respectful about it. I was.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

16 a game while defending the opposition's best player is below average offensively? And overrated defensively by who? The guys he plays against?

Fultz is unproven, but the Bennett comparison is lazy and dumb. I haven't seen a single reputable person that thinks he'll be anything but good. Brandon Roy is his floor.

If you need more offense than:

20/10 with elite percentages
16 with 2 made threes on good percentages
27 a game on elite percentages
12/8 assists with 1.5 made threes from your PF
and 21 a game with 1.7 made threes from your center

Plus Fultz, Harris (15 a game on 50-40 shooting), Covington (top 30 in made 3's, 14 PPG), Markkanen, Morris (14 PPG with more than 1 three per from a PF) and Rubio as an elite passer

then you sure aren't finding it in a team with John Wall's broken jumper, Capela, Noel, RHJ, LaVert and Sabonis. He's got four guys who shouldn't have been drafted. He built an "athletic, defensive" team that isn't as good defensively as mine.

Here is my issue with Bradley, from bleacherreport but its really based off of ESPN's DRPM. Bradley is rated the 18th best shooting guard.

1. 
   18. Avery Bradley, Boston Celtics (Previous Ranking: No. 14)
   
   Age: 26
   
   Per-Game Stats: 16.6 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.2 blocks
   
   Advanced Metrics: 14.9 PER, minus-1.22 RPM, minus-6.57 TPA
   
   Avery Bradley remains a confounding player whose advanced metrics don't match the eye test. The Boston Celtics clearly count on him to serve as a defensive ace alongside the sieve known as Isaiah Thomas, and his pestilent production forces ball-handlers into mistakes far outside the three-point arc. However, ESPN.com's DRPM doesn't just sneer at his defensive merits; it lists him as such a negative that his score tops only those earned by 37 of the 99 players at his position. Plus, the C's have strangely allowed an additional 3.2 points per 100 possessions while he plays.
   

 

[Aike]

Here is my issue with Bradley, from bleacherreport but its really based off of ESPN's DRPM. Bradley is rated the 18th best shooting guard.

1. 
   18. Avery Bradley, Boston Celtics (Previous Ranking: No. 14)
   
   Age: 26
   
   Per-Game Stats: 16.6 points, 6.2 rebounds, 2.2 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.2 blocks
   
   Advanced Metrics: 14.9 PER, minus-1.22 RPM, minus-6.57 TPA
   
   Avery Bradley remains a confounding player whose advanced metrics don't match the eye test. The Boston Celtics clearly count on him to serve as a defensive ace alongside the sieve known as Isaiah Thomas, and his pestilent production forces ball-handlers into mistakes far outside the three-point arc. However, ESPN.com's DRPM doesn't just sneer at his defensive merits; it lists him as such a negative that his score tops only those earned by 37 of the 99 players at his position. Plus, the C's have strangely allowed an additional 3.2 points per 100 possessions while he plays.

Bradley is a pesky defender, but that doesn't always translate into the best numbers. Interesting stats.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I wonder how many people know Blake Griffin isn't the guy who jumps over cars in commercials anymore and that Nerlens can't find a team to give him a contract?

Not much you can do besides make your points, support them with data and hope for the best.

Do think it's a bit fuzzy that I'm playing a team with two owners in a voting situation, though. I would hope people don't vote in their own polls, but who's to say?

Well, then there is this on Blake, the #3 on the power forward list.

1. 
   Age: 28
   
   Per-Game Stats: 21.8 points, 8.1 rebounds, 5.0 assists, 1.0 steals, 0.4 blocks
   
   Advanced Metrics: 22.9 PER, 3.49 RPM, 178.48 TPA
   
   
   
   During this season of monstrous lines and ceaseless triple-doubles, Blake Griffin's numbers haven't gotten nearly enough love. To be fair, the fact that he's missed 21 games and watched as the Los Angeles Clippers slipped out of title contention might play into that, as well.
   
   Still, let's change that.
   
   During the current campaign, Griffin joins Giannis Antetokounmpo, James Harden, LeBron James and Russell Westbrook as one of only five playersto average at least 21 points, eight rebounds, five assists and a steal. Beyond that, this is a line just 11 other men, in addition to the aforementioned quintet, have submitted throughout NBA history:
   
   1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar (twice)
   2. Charles Barkley
   3. Larry Bird (nine times)
   4. Kevin Durant
   5. Kevin Garnett (six times)
   6. Grant Hill
   7. Magic Johnson
   8. Michael Jordan
   9. Scottie Pippen (twice)
   10. Antoine Walker (twice)
   11. Chris Webber
   That's the type of company any player would like to have surrounding him.
   

 

[bbn93]

Who's to say Blake doesn't return to the guy in commercials jumping over cars? He's still relatively young, and when healthy an extremely versatile beast on offense who is also a great rebounder. It was just a few years ago he finished 3rd in mvp voting. It's way to early to count him out.