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Russia - Ukraine WAR Warning: Political Discussions

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ThroughBlue said:
From what I have read, the regions that are being invaded are people Russian regions and strong majority of those people identify with Russia and Putin more than Ukraine
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There have been several posts on this ITT. I think it's more accurate to say "stronger ties" to Russia than the rest of Ukraine than say a majority of people identify as Russian.

But even then, Putin is claiming a larger area than the disputed territories. Each region specifically has certain pockets more pro or against Russia. It's a really complicated problem when you get to that.

This is also a sensitive spot for Ukrainians. You have a portion of people brought in by Russia, who are legal citizens of Ukraine, but who want their territory to join Russia. This is basically what the civil war there is about. I think if Russia has a valid argument it's that Ukraine has been heavy-handed to those people (from my understanding), but likewise, they have limited options in the situation.
 
Think something a lot of people don't realize is how close these two regions are in terms of culture, language and history. Due to that, there are a lot of blurred lines. Many people in both countries have friends in family in the other country. It'd be like living across the river from Indiana or across the border from Tennessee.
 
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ThroughBlue said:
From what I have read, the regions that are being invaded are people Russian regions and strong majority of those people identify with Russia and Putin more than Ukraine
Click to expand...

It’s a little bit more complicated than that.

Russia wants to control all of Ukraine. Partly because they have to pay them 2 billion a year to lease the pipeline that runs through there to pump natural gas to Europe.

in the end always follow the money.
 
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Ron Mehico said:
Tried to read this thread to get an idea what’s going on and good lord WTF is wrong with you people, Jesus
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From what I can gather:

1) They can only ever see the world from a US centric point of view
2) They believe the rest of the world falls in line with US political divisions and everything that occurs in the world is specifically because of US politics
3) The world only gets US news channels and US media is driving all of this
4) Their political indoctrination drives all of their decision making.

It's a big wide world out there and most, if not all, world leaders don't give a damn about US politics. If you play Wolf Blitzer backwards, he doesn't say "Putin move 190,000 troops to the Ukrainian border." But even if he did, I doubt Putin ever watches it.
 
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Perrin75 said:
From what I can gather:

1) They can only ever see the world from a US centric point of view
2) They believe the rest of the world falls in line with US political divisions and everything that occurs in the world is specifically because of US politics
3) The world only gets US news channels and US media is driving all of this
4) Their political indoctrination drives all of their decision making.

It's a big wide world out there and most, if not all, world leaders don't give a damn about US politics. If you play Wolf Blitzer backwards, he doesn't say "Putin move 190,000 troops to the Ukrainian border." But even if he did, I doubt Putin ever watches it.
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Completely wrong.

Try comprehension.

The US has no business in a Russian civil war.
 
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bkingUK said:
Think something a lot of people don't realize is how close these two regions are in terms of culture, language and history. Due to that, there are a lot of blurred lines. Many people in both countries have friends in family in the other country. It'd be like living across the river from Indiana or across the border from Tennessee.
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They certainly speak different languages in TN & IN.

Anyone under 35 in U doesn't GAS about R. They think Western culture.
 
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If the US has no business in this (which I don’t necessarily disagree) then they have no business in the China/Tawain disputes either.

And anyone jonesing for war with anyone should be the first people to be shipped over and have to fight. Because the people with the loudest voices aren’t the ones that do the dying.
 
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the nail at the foul line said:
Nazism ended in Germany in 1945. Would you be ok with her with a swastika?
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Completely different things, but thanks for trying to link the two. The Russian people elected to keep that symbol. It is still prominently displayed throughout the country. It no longer is tied to communism and means something very different to the Russian people. It is more akin to the Iron Cross in Germany, which is still used to this day, as opposed to the Swastika.
 
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Perrin75 said:
Completely different things, but thanks for trying to link the two. The Russian people elected to keep that symbol. It is still prominently displayed throughout the country. It no longer is tied to communism and means something very different to the Russian people. It is more akin to the Iron Cross in Germany, which is still used to this day, as opposed to the Swastika.
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totally different lol
 
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Perrin75 said:
Completely different things, but thanks for trying to link the two. The Russian people elected to keep that symbol. It is still prominently displayed throughout the country. It no longer is tied to communism and means something very different to the Russian people. It is more akin to the Iron Cross in Germany, which is still used to this day, as opposed to the Swastika.
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So like the confederate flag?
 
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Again I ask how are we better off as a country now as opposed to when Trump was in office? I see rising inflation, prices of goods increasing, and now we can add Russia invading Ukraine on Biden's watch? So how are we better off? I'm generally curious cause I don't see it.
 
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vhcat70 said:
That was helpful & informative. Please continue.
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I see people mentioning WW3

WW2 started with Hitler taking over a willing Austria, which I see plays great parallels to Russia and Ukraine which I agree with. However Germany was decimated and humiliated after the treaty in WW1, and I don’t see Russia in anywhere near that position.

The takeover of Poland was after Russia and Germany agreed to their peace treaty and Russia took over Western Poland and Germany Eastern. I don’t see a pact with China or anything like that currently

The Germans still would have been defeated had they attacked from the North through France however the Blitzkrieg totally took the French off guard as they came south through the mountain range all the way to Dunkirk in 2 weeks. It was a surprise attack that is not possible in todays “news in 5 seconds” age. How can anyone wage a massive surprise military attack in this media age? EMPs and drones maybe?

The sanctions against Japan in their imperialism and taking over all those western countries resulted in Japans population almost starving to death causing military leaders to take over. We do t have that capability to do that to China.

Pearl Harbor was allowed due to not even having Radar when WW2 started, the whole battle of midway was fought without radar.

I just don’t see how this is comparable to WW2. A big reason for that is no starving and squeezed countries, the original motivation to rally the populations for war.


Also: DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS DUR DUR DUR
 
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JBHolmesfan said:
What makes you think that other than you want it to be true? He didn’t have the balls to fire Fauci like he should’ve, but sure, he’d probably beat Putin in a geopolitical battle.
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We won’t know, but we do know that while Puten made these types of moves when Obama was in office and did not when Trump was in office, Biden never went “toe-to-toe” with Putin, as he boasted with bravado, and is currently getting his ass whooped by Putin. Easing up on Putin, failing in Afghanistan, misspeaking about world affairs in press conferences, and often presenting as Sleepy Ole Joe certainly did not dissuade Putin. Now, the type of sanctions that were already in place when Biden took office are being instilled again as some aggressive response to Putin invading another sovereign. Just don’t think that will work. But, we shall see.
 
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Perrin75 said:
Completely different things, but thanks for trying to link the two. The Russian people elected to keep that symbol. It is still prominently displayed throughout the country. It no longer is tied to communism and means something very different to the Russian people. It is more akin to the Iron Cross in Germany, which is still used to this day, as opposed to the Swastika.
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Both symbols of murderous regimes.
 
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bkingUK said:
Why are we talking about ANTIFA in a thread about Ukraine btw? Why are the extreme right people of The Paddock resorting to shit posting when this is a Russian conflict? I know why, but what say you?
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Because these idiots only care about their political stances. They can’t manage to be decent human beings for half a second.
 
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Perrin75 said:
From what I can gather:

1) They can only ever see the world from a US centric point of view
2) They believe the rest of the world falls in line with US political divisions and everything that occurs in the world is specifically because of US politics
3) The world only gets US news channels and US media is driving all of this
4) Their political indoctrination drives all of their decision making.

It's a big wide world out there and most, if not all, world leaders don't give a damn about US politics. If you play Wolf Blitzer backwards, he doesn't say "Putin move 190,000 troops to the Ukrainian border." But even if he did, I doubt Putin ever watches it.
Click to expand...
Not sure where you’ve been the last 30 years definitely, and 70 relatively, but the United States has been the dominant world power.
We’ve been the driving force in keeping this from happening.

I see the world in reality, this situation could’ve and should’ve been avoided. Apparently you are under the assumption that no matter what steps were taken this would’ve happened. It’s an unrealistic point of view.
 
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the nail at the foul line said:
Completely wrong.

Try comprehension.

The US has no business in a Russian civil war.
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This is not a Russian Civil War. Ukraine is an independent nation. Has been even for a very long time. They are also a US ally. If you really want the US to lose it's standing in the world and allow China to grow then continue to suggest they ignore their allies. Why would any nation continue to look the US for leadership when we pick and choose when to support them? China will be very happy to step into that vacuum.

Also, this would only allow Russia to grow as a rival as well. It does nothing for the US standing in Europe and would only ensure a greater gulf grows between us and those nations.

This will also lead to massive instability. If it can be stopped now in its infancy there is a chance to limit the damage. If not, then this very well could push towards a large-scale conflict that will at minimum destroy the global economy which certainly does not benefit the US.

My hope is that the US can stay out of this militarily, but we are quickly running out of good options for staying out of this conflict. The isolationist, bury my head in the sand options are just as bad as the 1930's when all Germany was trying to do was reunify its borders and protect those oppressed German people in its neighboring countries.
 
the nail at the foul line said:
Antifa is a violent anti-western political movement. Their heroes are invading another country. A supposed fascist nation.
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I do not care about that bullshit. Spread your propaganda somewhere else. There’s an entire political thread that allows you to yell into the void. This was supposed to be a thread to update everyone on an actual situation. Not some made up bullshit ass political views.
 
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Caveman Catfan said:
We won’t know, but we do know that while Puten made these types of moves when Obama was in office and did not when Trump was in office, Biden never went “toe-to-toe” with Putin, as he boasted with bravado, and is currently getting his ass whooped by Putin. Easing up on Putin, failing in Afghanistan, misspeaking about world affairs in press conferences, and often presenting as Sleepy Ole Joe certainly did not dissuade Putin. Now, the type of sanctions that were already in place when Biden took office are being instilled again as some aggressive response to Putin invading another sovereign. Just don’t think that will work. But, we shall see.
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Fair enough and good points. I’m not defending Biden or saying he’s been good. I’m not sure what Putin was waiting on, but I feel if he really wanted to invade Ukraine while Trump was in office, Trump wouldn’t have been able to stop him. Maybe he would’ve, but I don’t think he would’ve.

Biden certainly deserves blame for his policies that made us more reliant on Russian natural gas making it harder to impose sanctions. Would those policies not being in place stop Putin from invading? I don’t think anyone in this thread, and the world really, knows what Putin would do.
 
Ron Mehico said:
I see people mentioning WW3

WW2 started with Hitler taking over a willing Austria, which I see plays great parallels to Russia and Ukraine which I agree with. However Germany was decimated and humiliated after the treaty in WW1, and I don’t see Russia in anywhere near that position.

The takeover of Poland was after Russia and Germany agreed to their peace treaty and Russia took over Western Poland and Germany Eastern. I don’t see a pact with China or anything like that currently

The Germans still would have been defeated had they attacked from the North through France however the Blitzkrieg totally took the French off guard as they came south through the mountain range all the way to Dunkirk in 2 weeks. It was a surprise attack that is not possible in todays “news in 5 seconds” age. How can anyone wage a massive surprise military attack in this media age? EMPs and drones maybe?

The sanctions against Japan in their imperialism and taking over all those western countries resulted in Japans population almost starving to death causing military leaders to take over. We do t have that capability to do that to China.

Pearl Harbor was allowed due to not even having Radar when WW2 started, the whole battle of midway was fought without radar.

I just don’t see how this is comparable to WW2. A big reason for that is no starving and squeezed countries, the original motivation to rally the populations for war.


Also: DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS DUR DUR DUR
Click to expand...
Germany didn’t want to fight France or the UK. When they invaded Poland to get to the Soviet Union, those 2 declared war on Germany.
Germany went through the Ardennes forest to invade France.

War makes the winners wealthy, that’s why they’re fought.
 
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Putin is ruthless. He murders or jails his political rivals. He crushes any popular dissent to his rule. He constantly reinvents history and praises the world of the Soviet Empire and longing for a return to those days.

He’s a dangerous, dangerous man but he’s not totally insane or incompetent.
 
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Perrin75 said:
This is not a Russian Civil War. Ukraine is an independent nation. Has been even for a very long time. They are also a US ally. If you really want the US to lose it's standing in the world and allow China to grow then continue to suggest they ignore their allies. Why would any nation continue to look the US for leadership when we pick and choose when to support them? China will be very happy to step into that vacuum.

Also, this would only allow Russia to grow as a rival as well. It does nothing for the US standing in Europe and would only ensure a greater gulf grows between us and those nations.

This will also lead to massive instability. If it can be stopped now in its infancy there is a chance to limit the damage. If not, then this very well could push towards a large-scale conflict that will at minimum destroy the global economy which certainly does not benefit the US.

My hope is that the US can stay out of this militarily, but we are quickly running out of good options for staying out of this conflict. The isolationist, bury my head in the sand options are just as bad as the 1930's when all Germany was trying to do was reunify its borders and protect those oppressed German people in its neighboring countries.
Click to expand...
We’ve abandoned Ukraine already, that’s what was avoidable. This buildup has been happening since last year.
What good do sanctions on Russia help Ukraine if the Russian Army is standing in it?
 
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bkingUK said:
This area is personal to Russia
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I am not sure what this is supposed to mean or why it is even relevant. It appears to be some sort of strange rationalization for Putin’s war. Canada is personal to the U.S. So what? We don’t need to accept Putin’s propaganda lies or some other odd attempt to accept this war as contextually rational. Putin is a despot who wants power. Ukraine is a sovereign nation. If it wanted to be a part of Russia, war would not be required.
 
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Ron Mehico said:
I see people mentioning WW3

WW2 started with Hitler taking over a willing Austria, which I see plays great parallels to Russia and Ukraine which I agree with. However Germany was decimated and humiliated after the treaty in WW1, and I don’t see Russia in anywhere near that position.

The takeover of Poland was after Russia and Germany agreed to their peace treaty and Russia took over Western Poland and Germany Eastern. I don’t see a pact with China or anything like that currently

The Germans still would have been defeated had they attacked from the North through France however the Blitzkrieg totally took the French off guard as they came south through the mountain range all the way to Dunkirk in 2 weeks. It was a surprise attack that is not possible in todays “news in 5 seconds” age. How can anyone wage a massive surprise military attack in this media age? EMPs and drones maybe?

The sanctions against Japan in their imperialism and taking over all those western countries resulted in Japans population almost starving to death causing military leaders to take over. We do t have that capability to do that to China.

Pearl Harbor was allowed due to not even having Radar when WW2 started, the whole battle of midway was fought without radar.

I just don’t see how this is comparable to WW2. A big reason for that is no starving and squeezed countries, the original motivation to rally the populations for war.


Also: DEMOCRATS AND REPUBLICANS DUR DUR DUR
Click to expand...

There are differences. There are similarities:

WW1: Tensions in baltics due to balance of power. War triggered by assassination of Arch Duke Ferdinand in Eastern Europe (Hungary), kicking off series of alliances leading to world at war. Today, we have alliances and partnerships involving: NATO, Russia, China, Japan, South Korea, North Korea, Eastern Europe. We have a potential axis. We the allies.

WW2: Tensions in Europe due to invasion of militaristic power. Tensions in Asia due to economic sanctions placed on Japan. Today, tensions in Europe due to invasion leading to economic sanctions (similar sanctions led to attack at Pearl Harbor). Tensions in Asia involving Japan, China, Koreas.

WW2: Isolationism was status quo until invasion of Pearl Harbor. Today, some hybrid of isolationism taking hold. Let's hope it can hold. I sincerely hope it can.

WW2: Hitler invaded Poland claiming the Pols to be of the same culture and desiring to be a part of Germany. Today, Russia invading Ukraine claiming to be of the same culture and desiring to be a part of Russia.

WW2: Hitler invades several neighboring countries. Today, Putin has invaded Georgia, Ukraine, Chechnya. If takes all of Ukraine, puts Russia in position to take Transitria & Moldova.

When Hitler began his invasions it was ignored by Europe. He was placated out of fear of war. Today, we have Putin invading neighbors, being placated out of fear of war.

Now, will this turn into WW3. I don't think so, but there's a whole lot of lessons in history and parallels.
 
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