POLITICAL THREAD
- Thread starter kybobcat
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We really have libs in this thread saying Hitler wasn't socialist? Lol wow. Just when I thought you guys couldn't get any dumber.
Power discrepancies are inherent to any system. The only time we are truly equal is a state of literal anarchy wherein each individual is responsible for the entirety of their person. Society/government only exists in the first place because most people collectively agree that they don't want the brutality of survival-of-the-fittest purely free-market anarchy. So government/society engenders giving up a portion of your individual power in return for collective benefits. This power is ceded to a "nation-state" and disembodied. There will always be individuals who look to accrue this now disembodied power to then use for their own personal benefit. Mechanisms to limit the concentration of power by selfish individuals is the whole point of checks and balances and why our Constitution has been so effective and was revolutionary in it's day. None of these fundamental truths about human nature speak to the merits of capitalism or socialism or any other economic principles, what they illustrate is the need for limitations on the concentration of power. No matter what your governmental philosophy, divide the power imbued in government so that no individual can control and subvert that power to their own ends.
Socialism sounds great. It has always sounded great. And it will probably always continue to sound great. It is only when you go beyond rhetoric, and start looking at hard facts, that socialism turns out to be a big disappointment, if not a disaster.
While throngs of young people are cheering loudly for avowed socialist Bernie Sanders, socialism has turned oil-rich Venezuela into a place where there are shortages of everything from toilet paper to beer, where electricity keeps shutting down, and where there are long lines of people hoping to get food, people complaining that they cannot feed their families.
With national income going down, and prices going up under triple-digit inflation in Venezuela, these complaints are by no means frivolous. But it is doubtful if the young people cheering for Bernie Sanders have even heard of such things, whether in Venezuela or in other countries around the world that have turned their economies over to politicians and bureaucrats to run.
The anti-capitalist policies in Venezuela have worked so well that the number of companies in Venezuela is now a fraction of what it once was. That should certainly reduce capitalist "exploitation," shouldn't it?
But people who attribute income inequality to capitalists exploiting workers, as Karl Marx claimed, never seem to get around to testing that belief against facts — such as the fact that none of the Marxist regimes around the world has ever had as high a standard of living for working people as there is in many capitalist countries.
Facts are seldom allowed to contaminate the beautiful vision of the left. What matters to the true believers are the ringing slogans, endlessly repeated.
When Senator Sanders cries, "The system is rigged!" no one asks, "Just what specifically does that mean?" or "What facts do you have to back that up?"
In 2015, the 400 richest people in the world had net losses of $19 billion. If they had rigged the system, surely they could have rigged it better than that.
But the very idea of subjecting their pet notions to the test of hard facts will probably not even occur to those who are cheering for socialism and for other bright ideas of the political left.
How many of the people who are demanding an increase in the minimum wage have ever bothered to check what actually happens when higher minimum wages are imposed? More often they just assume what is assumed by like-minded peers — sometimes known as "everybody," with their assumptions being what "everybody knows."
Back in 1948, when inflation had rendered meaningless the minimum wage established a decade earlier, the unemployment rate among 16-17-year-old black males was under 10 percent. But after the minimum wage was raised repeatedly to keep up with inflation, the unemployment rate for black males that age was never under 30 percent for more than 20 consecutive years, from 1971 through 1994. In many of those years, the unemployment rate for black youngsters that age exceeded 40 percent and, for a couple of years, it exceeded 50 percent.
The damage is even greater than these statistics might suggest. Most low-wage jobs are entry-level jobs that young people move up out of, after acquiring work experience and a track record that makes them eligible for better jobs. But you can't move up the ladder if you don't get on the ladder.
The great promise of socialism is something for nothing. It is one of the signs of today's dumbed-down education that so many college students seem to think that the cost of their education should — and will — be paid by raising taxes on "the rich."
Here again, just a little check of the facts would reveal that higher tax rates on upper-income earners do not automatically translate into more tax revenue coming in to the government. Often high tax rates have led to less revenue than lower tax rates.
In a globalized economy, high tax rates may just lead investors to invest in other countries with lower tax rates. That means that jobs created by those investments will be overseas.
None of this is rocket science. But you do have to stop and think — and that is what too many of our schools and colleges are failing to teach their students to do.
- Thomas Sowell
While throngs of young people are cheering loudly for avowed socialist Bernie Sanders, socialism has turned oil-rich Venezuela into a place where there are shortages of everything from toilet paper to beer, where electricity keeps shutting down, and where there are long lines of people hoping to get food, people complaining that they cannot feed their families.
With national income going down, and prices going up under triple-digit inflation in Venezuela, these complaints are by no means frivolous. But it is doubtful if the young people cheering for Bernie Sanders have even heard of such things, whether in Venezuela or in other countries around the world that have turned their economies over to politicians and bureaucrats to run.
The anti-capitalist policies in Venezuela have worked so well that the number of companies in Venezuela is now a fraction of what it once was. That should certainly reduce capitalist "exploitation," shouldn't it?
But people who attribute income inequality to capitalists exploiting workers, as Karl Marx claimed, never seem to get around to testing that belief against facts — such as the fact that none of the Marxist regimes around the world has ever had as high a standard of living for working people as there is in many capitalist countries.
Facts are seldom allowed to contaminate the beautiful vision of the left. What matters to the true believers are the ringing slogans, endlessly repeated.
When Senator Sanders cries, "The system is rigged!" no one asks, "Just what specifically does that mean?" or "What facts do you have to back that up?"
In 2015, the 400 richest people in the world had net losses of $19 billion. If they had rigged the system, surely they could have rigged it better than that.
But the very idea of subjecting their pet notions to the test of hard facts will probably not even occur to those who are cheering for socialism and for other bright ideas of the political left.
How many of the people who are demanding an increase in the minimum wage have ever bothered to check what actually happens when higher minimum wages are imposed? More often they just assume what is assumed by like-minded peers — sometimes known as "everybody," with their assumptions being what "everybody knows."
Back in 1948, when inflation had rendered meaningless the minimum wage established a decade earlier, the unemployment rate among 16-17-year-old black males was under 10 percent. But after the minimum wage was raised repeatedly to keep up with inflation, the unemployment rate for black males that age was never under 30 percent for more than 20 consecutive years, from 1971 through 1994. In many of those years, the unemployment rate for black youngsters that age exceeded 40 percent and, for a couple of years, it exceeded 50 percent.
The damage is even greater than these statistics might suggest. Most low-wage jobs are entry-level jobs that young people move up out of, after acquiring work experience and a track record that makes them eligible for better jobs. But you can't move up the ladder if you don't get on the ladder.
The great promise of socialism is something for nothing. It is one of the signs of today's dumbed-down education that so many college students seem to think that the cost of their education should — and will — be paid by raising taxes on "the rich."
Here again, just a little check of the facts would reveal that higher tax rates on upper-income earners do not automatically translate into more tax revenue coming in to the government. Often high tax rates have led to less revenue than lower tax rates.
In a globalized economy, high tax rates may just lead investors to invest in other countries with lower tax rates. That means that jobs created by those investments will be overseas.
None of this is rocket science. But you do have to stop and think — and that is what too many of our schools and colleges are failing to teach their students to do.
- Thomas Sowell
I agree with the majority of your post. There is no perfect government philosophy. Capitalism isn’t perfect and certainly isn’t immune to the evils of human nature, but it gives each individual the best chance to succeed.
Communism by design reduces checks and balances.
In the United States the people are in charge of the government, it works for us, as you know.
The opposite is true in communist nations, the party supersedes everything.
How do Bernie supporters square what he says with how he lives? Hes a millionaire. Has 3 homes, including a $600k beach house. HE IS THE ELITE,.
Youd really think he would be able to walk the walk.
I mean if drug dealers can do it, some anyway and albeit for different motivations, youd really think...
The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming!
Agree - mostly. And socialism is in total conflict with private property & individual freedom rights.
I was talking to my wife and said I’m surprised Donald Trump hasn’t been blamed for Toys R Us closing. My 4 year old said, “Donald Trump. Who is that?” My 9 year old answers, “He’s the president I think. All I know is he better bring back Toys R Us. I like having a store full of toys and video games.” My 4 year old agreed.
Thought you all might like a conversation that actually took place concerning kids and politics.
Thought you all might like a conversation that actually took place concerning kids and politics.
Bernie supporters don't "square" anything. They don't know what the term means. they just emote own his words & are happy all day smoking their whatever.
Kathy Griffin, with and without makeup.
I am counting this as the education on socialism I was required to take. And this is as good as it gets.
Quick answer to the “starvation “ question
Yes - in some cases people had nothing to eat because of The failures of centralized planning
But Stalin and Lenin both purposely starved people to death as well
Stalin liquidated 6 Million in the Ukraine between 1936 -1937
Because they tried to resist the communist takeover of their privately owned lands / farms
The communists in China however DID “accidentally” starve close to 20 million to death during Maos “great leap forward “
(Declared war on sparrows to protect crops - sparrow population drastically reduced... but now the insects / locusts they were eating devastated the agricultural food sources etc)
Could you be thinking of that maybe?
Stalin’s people were also notoriously harsh on engineers who didn’t provide answers that The State expected to hear
Etc etc
Socialism and communism were directly linked by Marx/Engels ...and they were the founding fathers of that shit show
But to your point (and we mentioned it yesterday briefly) that doesn’t mean a socialist state couldn’t try to enact something totally divorced from the “evolution” into communism
And theoretically the pre-Marx views on socialism Could be used ...
I can’t think of anyone if trust to enact it - but your point shouldn’t be ignored or automatically refuted
It’d have to be a tailored version of INGSOC that was under constant scrutiny (not that capitalism doesn’t require a nanny)
What specifically would you picture a hypothetical socialist USA doing that we aren’t doing now?
Different approach to health care maybe?
mao didn't know crap on agriculture. He tried growing food too close to other plants which absolutely ruined the crops.
Socialists are fools. They are car salesmen trying to sell a Ford Pinto without an engine.
I'd argue socialism could be effective if you have a small, homogeneous society where there was actual pride in working hard, getting an education and helping out your fellow man. The people who are pushing socialism in the USA want to give free stuff away to people who don't work hard, haven't attained an education, and couldn't give two ishes about their fellow men.
Socialism might be effective if you could first get rid of all the people that think it is a good idea.
Even New Harmony failed.
Human nature wins.
"While many of the town's new arrivals had a sincere interest in making it a success, the experiment also attracted "crackpots, free-loaders, and adventurers whose presence in the town made success unlikely."
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Exactly, and with the US we have checks and balances to help keep it from getting out of hand. Unfortunately, the Dems have gotten so corrupt that they allow anything and everything to happen within their party to win including, embracing socialist ideas in an attempt to totally change our system once and for all. Thinking that bringing socialism and capitalism together in some mutual marriage will work is insanity. Eventually, those on the dole will far outnumber those not and then either you implode with a civil war that rights the ship or communism erupts to save the day allowing for only 2 economic groups. The haves and the have not's. No middle ground.
Denmark is one of those countries right now starting to experience this. Larger part socialism with a sprinkle of capitalism. About half of their people are on the government dime with many social programs and growing. They are at their highest tax rate in years and are looking to raise them again because there is not enough money to foot the growing bill.
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