POLITICAL THREAD

[Dionysus444]

I'd argue socialism could be effective if you have a small, homogeneous society where there was actual pride in working hard, getting an education and helping out your fellow man. The people who are pushing socialism in the USA want to give free stuff away to people who don't work hard, haven't attained an education, and couldn't give two ishes about their fellow men.

There will always be unproductive people. Same as there will always be selfish people who use any means they can to gratify themselves, even if that means seriously hurting others. A system we build needs to take that into account and try to minimize the harm those malcontents can do, but not at the expense of the vast majority of people who are just trying to improve their lot without negatively impacting others. This is why a hardcore authoritarian police state is undesirable, it may provide more security from the small number of asocials, but at the huge cost of liberties from the majority lawful population. The "people who are pushing socialism in the USA" want to provide a platform that will allow those in poverty who want to work hard and get an education to invest in themselves and do so, without having to spend every waking moment worried about where their next meal or rent payment will come from. For every welfare queen having kids to squeeze more money out of the dole, there are multiple single moms working three minimum wage jobs just keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. These are the majority we should be making policy for, not the small minority of layabouts and criminals. Criminals will do what they want to do regardless of the policies we legislate, that's what makes them criminals.

 

[warrior-cat]

There will always be unproductive people. Same as there will always be selfish people who use any means they can to gratify themselves, even if that means seriously hurting others. A system we build needs to take that into account and try to minimize the harm those malcontents can do, but not at the expense of the vast majority of people who are just trying to improve their lot without negatively impacting others. This is why a hardcore authoritarian police state is undesirable, it may provide more security from the small number of asocials, but at the huge cost of liberties from the majority lawful population. The "people who are pushing socialism in the USA" want to provide a platform that will allow those in poverty who want to work hard and get an education to invest in themselves and do so, without having to spend every waking moment worried about where their next meal or rent payment will come from. For every welfare queen having kids to squeeze more money out of the dole, there are multiple single moms working three minimum wage jobs just keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. These are the majority we should be making policy for, not the small minority of layabouts and criminals. Criminals will do what they want to do regardless of the policies we legislate, that's what makes them criminals.

easily refuted. The more you give to those who do not want to work, the more of them you will have later on. It all goes back to: eventually, you run out of other peoples money. It is really that simple.

 

[Brandon Stroud]

there are multiple single moms working three minimum wage jobs

That's not even close to reality. Get real. The number of heads of household who work 1 minimum wage job is vanishingly small, let alone 3. That's, of course, leaving aside the epidemic of single parent households that has been exacerbated by government social engineering.

The truth is most people in this country make enough to get by and the ones that can't have access to resources to make up the difference. Now, there is a big gap between getting by and "investing in yourself", but it's not society's job to create a utopia where everyone can explore their dreams at little to no cost to themselves. The resource rationing will begin before the first single mother of 5 steps foot on that free college campus. That's why socialism, and its inherent materialism, is ultimately a morally bankrupt position wrapped in a coating of humanitarianism.

 

[screwduke1]

 

[the nail at the foul line]

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True idiot.

 

[JumperJack]

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Lol. What would that make Obama?

 

[warrior-cat]

Lol. What would that make Obama?

A collaborator.

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

I'd argue socialism could be effective if you have a small, homogeneous society where there was actual pride in working hard, getting an education and helping out your fellow man. The people who are pushing socialism in the USA want to give free stuff away to people who don't work hard, haven't attained an education, and couldn't give two ishes about their fellow men.

Well, that's the difference...the nordic countries, which libd always try to site as socialism, but are very pro capitalist...are socialist in the sense they have a few million ppl in a population, they are homogeneous, and the govt is treated as they are the share holders of it...they decide what the govt does and it does it...not a central planner that tells everyone what's best for them. It works in the sense as everyone should always keep on mind: we dont belong to govt, govt belongs to us.

 

[Dionysus444]

That's not even close to reality. Get real. The number of heads of household who work 1 minimum wage job is vanishingly small, let alone 3.

Incorrect. 27% of minimum wage workers have children, barely lower than the 34% of ALL workers. That includes the fact that most minimum wage workers are under 30, many below modern ages for parenthood.

 

[Brandon Stroud]

Incorrect. 27% of minimum wage workers have children, barely lower than the 34% of ALL workers. That includes the fact that most minimum wage workers are under 30, many below modern ages for parenthood.

That absolutely does NOT say they are single parents or heads of household. If one parent is making minimum wage, but the other parent is making a reasonable salary, then said family is still fine. That story also explicitly states that it uses a study which includes people making up to $10.10/hr. So, they're not even really talking about minimum wage workers.

You're either purposefully confusing terms or don't understand what you're saying.

 

[Levibooty]

Quick answer to the “starvation “ question

Yes - in some cases people had nothing to eat because of The failures of centralized planning

But Stalin and Lenin both purposely starved people to death as well

Stalin liquidated 6 Million in the Ukraine between 1936 -1937

Because they tried to resist the communist takeover of their privately owned lands / farms

The communists in China however DID “accidentally” starve close to 20 million to death during Maos “great leap forward “
(Declared war on sparrows to protect crops - sparrow population drastically reduced... but now the insects / locusts they were eating devastated the agricultural food sources etc)

Could you be thinking of that maybe?

Stalin’s people were also notoriously harsh on engineers who didn’t provide answers that The State expected to hear

Etc etc

Socialism and communism were directly linked by Marx/Engels ...and they were the founding fathers of that shit show

But to your point (and we mentioned it yesterday briefly) that doesn’t mean a socialist state couldn’t try to enact something totally divorced from the “evolution” into communism

And theoretically the pre-Marx views on socialism Could be used ...

I can’t think of anyone if trust to enact it - but your point shouldn’t be ignored or automatically refuted

It’d have to be a tailored version of INGSOC that was under constant scrutiny (not that capitalism doesn’t require a nanny)

What specifically would you picture a hypothetical socialist USA doing that we aren’t doing now?

Different approach to health care maybe?

I think universal healthcare and ending the war on drugs in such a way as to treat drugs like the drug alcohol, would end a massive amount of problems in this country. Wealthy Americans think of money, sick people think of getting healthy. Stopping the war on drugs may be radical thinking but I don't see what has happened the last forty years as a success story or anything but a huge waste of revenue. I would concentrate on controlling violence in our homes, on our women, children and minorities. Fact is drugs are more in demand now than when there were no laws concerning them. I would end the war on labor and support unions rather than enforce business oriented solutions like Right to Work as anything other than the masked charade it is. Working people did not pen that effort to end all union representation, it was the business roundtable that wants complete control over labor that introduced that misnomer. I would break the hold big pharm has on drug pricing in this country including pot. Exactly why do other countries get a price break when American citizens pay 8-10 times the price? I would make every corporations clean up their environmental mess on their dime and penalize them for the time the mess exists. I would put people who hire illegals in prison for at least a year, taking their money won't work but taking their time will get their attention. I would make CEO's and board members culpable for the actions of the corporations they are supposed to over see. I would go to public financing our elections, use the popular vote until 65% of the electorate actually feels the need to vote and only then trigger the electoral college. Maybe the most important thing I would do is I would in every case make the American citizen primary and superior to any and all corporations---I would end the notion that corporations are more important than the citizens of this country. I would make the environment something of a sacred gift that we are presently affecting for our posterity and stop treating the earth like a garbage dump. I would do everything to change the notion of people who think of money as their God and try to educate them about the importance of their neighbor. I would make education a priority and enforce the idea of separation of any Church and State and bring back net neutrality. I would work to make the American citizen the benefactor of the American government regardless of race, creed, or color. A lot of that isn't really socialism in pure form but to tell you the truth the idea of the American citizen being a priority over American business appeals to me and I think honest businessmen could prosper along with the country as whole. I also know there is a bluebird on my shoulder.

 

[Bill Derington]

I think universal healthcare and ending the war on drugs in such a way as to treat drugs like the drug alcohol, would end a massive amount of problems in this country. Wealthy Americans think of money, sick people think of getting healthy. Stopping the war on drugs may be radical thinking but I don't see what has happened the last forty years as a success story or anything but a huge waste of revenue. I would concentrate on controlling violence in our homes, on our women, children and minorities. Fact is drugs are more in demand now than when there were no laws concerning them. I would end the war on labor and support unions rather than enforce business oriented solutions like Right to Work as anything other than the masked charade it is. Working people did not pen that effort to end all union representation, it was the business roundtable that wants complete control over labor that introduced that misnomer. I would break the hold big pharm has on drug pricing in this country including pot. Exactly why do other countries get a price break when American citizens pay 8-10 times the price? I would make every corporations clean up their environmental mess on their dime and penalize them for the time the mess exists. I would put people who hire illegals in prison for at least a year, taking their money won't work but taking their time will get their attention. I would make CEO's and board members culpable for the actions of the corporations they are supposed to over see. I would go to public financing our elections, use the popular vote until 65% of the electorate actually feels the need to vote and only then trigger the electoral college. Maybe the most important thing I would do is I would in every case make the American citizen primary and superior to any and all corporations---I would end the notion that corporations are more important than the citizens of this country. I would make the environment something of a sacred gift that we are presently affecting for our posterity and stop treating the earth like a garbage dump. I would do everything to change the notion of people who think of money as their God and try to educate them about the importance of their neighbor. I would make education a priority and enforce the idea of separation of any Church and State and bring back net neutrality. I would work to make the American citizen the benefactor of the American government regardless of race, creed, or color. A lot of that isn't really socialism in pure form but to tell you the truth the idea of the American citizen being a priority over American business appeals to me and I think honest businessmen could prosper along with the country as whole. I also know there is a bluebird on my shoulder.

It’s like you have blinders on, and only see what you want to see, and that generally isn’t passed the end of your nose.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

How do Bernie supporters square what he says with how he lives? Hes a millionaire. Has 3 homes, including a $600k beach house. HE IS THE ELITE,.

I don’t believe Bernie ever wanted to be president. He only wanted power. It’s easy to spout ideas that stir the perpetually emotional in this country, but Bernie has never put an idea that was not intended to just reward Bernie and his wife into motion. He has not pulled the Senate toward any of his ideas. The last thing he wanted was to actually win and have expectations.

 

[Mashburned]

I think universal healthcare and ending the war on drugs in such a way as to treat drugs like the drug alcohol, would end a massive amount of problems in this country. Wealthy Americans think of money, sick people think of getting healthy. Stopping the war on drugs may be radical thinking but I don't see what has happened the last forty years as a success story or anything but a huge waste of revenue. I would concentrate on controlling violence in our homes, on our women, children and minorities. Fact is drugs are more in demand now than when there were no laws concerning them. I would end the war on labor and support unions rather than enforce business oriented solutions like Right to Work as anything other than the masked charade it is. Working people did not pen that effort to end all union representation, it was the business roundtable that wants complete control over labor that introduced that misnomer. I would break the hold big pharm has on drug pricing in this country including pot. Exactly why do other countries get a price break when American citizens pay 8-10 times the price? I would make every corporations clean up their environmental mess on their dime and penalize them for the time the mess exists. I would put people who hire illegals in prison for at least a year, taking their money won't work but taking their time will get their attention. I would make CEO's and board members culpable for the actions of the corporations they are supposed to over see. I would go to public financing our elections, use the popular vote until 65% of the electorate actually feels the need to vote and only then trigger the electoral college. Maybe the most important thing I would do is I would in every case make the American citizen primary and superior to any and all corporations---I would end the notion that corporations are more important than the citizens of this country. I would make the environment something of a sacred gift that we are presently affecting for our posterity and stop treating the earth like a garbage dump. I would do everything to change the notion of people who think of money as their God and try to educate them about the importance of their neighbor. I would make education a priority and enforce the idea of separation of any Church and State and bring back net neutrality. I would work to make the American citizen the benefactor of the American government regardless of race, creed, or color. A lot of that isn't really socialism in pure form but to tell you the truth the idea of the American citizen being a priority over American business appeals to me and I think honest businessmen could prosper along with the country as whole. I also know there is a bluebird on my shoulder.

Thank you for posting that.

 

[mdlUK.1]

I don’t believe Bernie ever wanted to be president. He only wanted power. It’s easy to spout ideas that stir the perpetually emotional in this country, but Bernie has never put an idea that was not intended to just reward Bernie and his wife into motion. He has not pulled the Senate toward any of his ideas. The last thing he wanted was to actually win and have expectations.

That’s probably why he didn’t go ballistic when he found out the dnc rigged the primary for hildawg.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

That’s probably why he didn’t go ballistic when he found out the dnc rigged the primary for hildawg.

Exactly. He gained power by that revelation, if Hillary won. But, he did not want to win.

 

[USSLair]

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When Trump wins in 2020 he will blow his brains out and I hope it's on TV

 

[ymmot31]

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Nope. The Dems launched an attack on the United States and lost.

 

[oldsports_]

Sums it up quite nicely...

 

[CastleRubric]

I think universal healthcare and ending the war on drugs in such a way as to treat drugs like the drug alcohol, would end a massive amount of problems in this country. Wealthy Americans think of money, sick people think of getting healthy. Stopping the war on drugs may be radical thinking but I don't see what has happened the last forty years .....peals to me and I think honest businessmen could prosper along with the country as whole. I also know there is a bluebird on my shoulder.

OK....warning
I read your post -- and then thought....I'll just acknowledge some of the seeds of good ideas he has there

Then I thought.....I could brainstorm with him and add some of my own as President Wyvern Rubric-san

Then.....this $hit storm happened.......and I'm still running through ideas and correlations .......I don't know if I want to hug you or poison your coffee with GMO Dog Doo


-----------Das sheisse-------------

Sounds like you have plenty of noble intent and good ideas on places to at least Try and focus our resources to make improvements.....some of those ideas seem to carry more specifics than others

Was that just from your trying to avoid writing a thesis - or have you actually thought through some of those would-be initiatives in more detail?
Maybe you're just more passionate about some than others?

Have you thought about how you would evaluate whether or not your program were having the desired intent?

Would you attempt to enact universal health care while also extending it to non citizens?
Would you consider out right eliminating some govt pgm's or agencies?
Sounds like SAMSHA might be one that would be overhauled under your new approach to the 'war' on drugs

Your approach to the environment - that's a great example of an issue where you can make strides in a positive direction --- but you could see your gains wiped out with 'cross contamination' from nearby nations that aren't doing what you're doing (doesn't mean you don't try to make improvements though right?)


You mention health care -- and I like the idea of cutting some of our own defense spending in order to invest in better coverage / access for citizens.

Healthcare quality would be addressed by making sure that we take a long hard look at things that SEEM like improvements -- but are probably going to blow up in our faces (AI, Robotic surgeons, genetic manipulation and others)

Also address quality by making sure we have a standing forum where Epidemiologists & Medical Dr's team up internationally to monitor and evaluate drug resistant strains of pathogens - and demand that our immunization programs simplify their schedules and re-define what's considered critical.....borders have to be controlled in the light of public health as well

Other contributing factors have to be considered in that forum --- what's the effect of GMO foods? Insecticides and herbicides?


I'd also force a closer relationship between public health / prevention efforts (CDC) and the healthcare world

That includes streamlined funding and collaborative mobility / mortality reduction goals for CDC programs that are clearly "related"
(right now for example diabetes research gets funded and managed separately from Diet/Nutrition/Physical Activity....even though they're two programs that should be linked conceptually as well as programmatically)

I'd halt all weather manipulation sciences and programs overnight by Executive Order and make that a formal announcement at the UN Gen Assy


I'd declare an end to the global war on terror and start pivoting away from our current alignment with Saudi Arabia -
We'd pull out of NATO and encourage that defunct old lady to close shop

I'd align more closely with our neighbors in this hemisphere
Make it easier for actual labor migrants to come and work - and get them under a consumption tax

I'd set fire to Neydland stadium while piss drunk and wearing a clown mask / no pants

I'd allow Japanese armed forces to practice their new freedom to deploy overseas -- but assigning them to NC Chapel Hill with the orders to systematically (and politically)_ dismantle everything related to UNC basketball

 

[bigblueinsanity]

The biggest problem with the Soros/elections can be rigged here narrative...is that Donald Trump won.

If there was ever an election that a supposed deep state would fix in one direction...surely it would be Clinton over Trump.

Trump won the 2012 election?

The fact trump won in 2016 doesn't mean they didn't cheat their a$$ off. They did and we know at least some of it. And that's an election they thought they'd win in a landslide

 

[Levibooty]

I only had to fire two people my entire working life. One of them, my Business agent's nephew thought he was protected and didn't have to work, he was wrong. Almost every other person who worked for me did what they were paid to do and my projects finished on time and usually just little under budget. The problem in this country is more about leadership than it is about people not wanting to work.

OK....warning
I read your post -- and then thought....I'll just acknowledge some of the seeds of good ideas he has there

Then I thought.....I could brainstorm with him and add some of my own as President Wyvern Rubric-san

Then.....this $hit storm happened.......and I'm still running through ideas and correlations .......I don't know if I want to hug you or poison your coffee with GMO Dog Doo


-----------Das sheisse-------------

Sounds like you have plenty of noble intent and good ideas on places to at least Try and focus our resources to make improvements.....some of those ideas seem to carry more specifics than others

Was that just from your trying to avoid writing a thesis - or have you actually thought through some of those would-be initiatives in more detail?
Maybe you're just more passionate about some than others?

Have you thought about how you would evaluate whether or not your program were having the desired intent?

Would you attempt to enact universal health care while also extending it to non citizens?
Would you consider out right eliminating some govt pgm's or agencies?
Sounds like SAMSHA might be one that would be overhauled under your new approach to the 'war' on drugs

Your approach to the environment - that's a great example of an issue where you can make strides in a positive direction --- but you could see your gains wiped out with 'cross contamination' from nearby nations that aren't doing what you're doing (doesn't mean you don't try to make improvements though right?)


You mention health care -- and I like the idea of cutting some of our own defense spending in order to invest in better coverage / access for citizens.

Healthcare quality would be addressed by making sure that we take a long hard look at things that SEEM like improvements -- but are probably going to blow up in our faces (AI, Robotic surgeons, genetic manipulation and others)

Also address quality by making sure we have a standing forum where Epidemiologists & Medical Dr's team up internationally to monitor and evaluate drug resistant strains of pathogens - and demand that our immunization programs simplify their schedules and re-define what's considered critical.....borders have to be controlled in the light of public health as well

Other contributing factors have to be considered in that forum --- what's the effect of GMO foods? Insecticides and herbicides?


I'd also force a closer relationship between public health / prevention efforts (CDC) and the healthcare world

That includes streamlined funding and collaborative mobility / mortality reduction goals for CDC programs that are clearly "related"
(right now for example diabetes research gets funded and managed separately from Diet/Nutrition/Physical Activity....even though they're two programs that should be linked conceptually as well as programmatically)

I'd halt all weather manipulation sciences and programs overnight by Executive Order and make that a formal announcement at the UN Gen Assy


I'd declare an end to the global war on terror and start pivoting away from our current alignment with Saudi Arabia -
We'd pull out of NATO and encourage that defunct old lady to close shop

I'd align more closely with our neighbors in this hemisphere
Make it easier for actual labor migrants to come and work - and get them under a consumption tax

I'd set fire to Neydland stadium while piss drunk and wearing a clown mask / no pants

I'd allow Japanese armed forces to practice their new freedom to deploy overseas -- but assigning them to NC Chapel Hill with the orders to systematically (and politically)_ dismantle everything related to UNC basketball

I'm willing to be your vice -prescedent!

 

[CastleRubric]

Well, that's the difference...the nordic countries, which libd always try to site as socialism, but are very pro capitalist...are socialist in the sense they have a few million ppl in a population, they are homogeneous, and the govt is treated as they are the share holders of it...they decide what the govt does and it does it...not a central planner that tells everyone what's best for them. It works in the sense as everyone should always keep on mind: we dont belong to govt, govt belongs to us.

Do you think that European socialist states would have developed and functioned the same (or similar / or worse etc) between 1945 and 1985 if the United States hadn't maintained / innovated and invested in such extensive defense infrastructure?

I wonder about that - surely it would have had some kind of impact on the economies of multiple Euro nations if we pulled 80% of our forces out of Europe after WW2 ..... and never joined NATO.......

How would they have paid for / maintained / managed and continually upgraded collective defense - outside of the (largely) US dominated system that we DID have in place?


It would have forced them to re-arrange some budget line items each Fiscal Year, No?

Which would have changed how they funded various aspects of their socialist systems


Which makes it sound like their socio-economic systems existed in a somewhat artificial environment


^ That's a theory of mine -- it's not necessarily a conviction

Do you think it's a reasonable one?


My point is that the western Euro models of SOC were well funded by outside help (USA) and wouldn't have been as appealing if the Cold War era EURO's had to foot the entire bill for keeping Ivan out of their back yard


Hell -- it's a moot point now of course
Europe has a whole new set of issues on their hands

 

[oldsports_]

Liberal logic 101

 

[Platinumdrgn]

Inflation is outpacing GDP and wage growth. MAGA!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-inflation-rates-20180713-story.html

 

[oldsports_]

Ouch!

 

[WayneDougan]

For every welfare queen having kids to squeeze more money out of the dole, there are multiple single moms working three minimum wage jobs just keep food on the table and a roof over their heads.

The left created this single moms issue too. How are you going to resolve that?

 

[CastleRubric]

I'd argue socialism could be effective if you have a small, homogeneous society where there was actual pride in working hard, getting an education and helping out your fellow man. The people who are pushing socialism in the USA want to give free stuff away to people who don't work hard, haven't attained an education, and couldn't give two ishes about their fellow men.

I think the limited scope / non-Marxist variant of SOC thet some have discussed is really a hybrid / blended economy like we already have

Not really "Socialism" in the end - agree?

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

 

[JStaff2187]

OK....warning
I read your post -- and then thought....I'll just acknowledge some of the seeds of good ideas he has there

Then I thought.....I could brainstorm with him and add some of my own as President Wyvern Rubric-san

Then.....this $hit storm happened.......and I'm still running through ideas and correlations .......I don't know if I want to hug you or poison your coffee with GMO Dog Doo


-----------Das sheisse-------------

Sounds like you have plenty of noble intent and good ideas on places to at least Try and focus our resources to make improvements.....some of those ideas seem to carry more specifics than others

Was that just from your trying to avoid writing a thesis - or have you actually thought through some of those would-be initiatives in more detail?
Maybe you're just more passionate about some than others?

Have you thought about how you would evaluate whether or not your program were having the desired intent?

Would you attempt to enact universal health care while also extending it to non citizens?
Would you consider out right eliminating some govt pgm's or agencies?
Sounds like SAMSHA might be one that would be overhauled under your new approach to the 'war' on drugs

Your approach to the environment - that's a great example of an issue where you can make strides in a positive direction --- but you could see your gains wiped out with 'cross contamination' from nearby nations that aren't doing what you're doing (doesn't mean you don't try to make improvements though right?)


You mention health care -- and I like the idea of cutting some of our own defense spending in order to invest in better coverage / access for citizens.

Healthcare quality would be addressed by making sure that we take a long hard look at things that SEEM like improvements -- but are probably going to blow up in our faces (AI, Robotic surgeons, genetic manipulation and others)

Also address quality by making sure we have a standing forum where Epidemiologists & Medical Dr's team up internationally to monitor and evaluate drug resistant strains of pathogens - and demand that our immunization programs simplify their schedules and re-define what's considered critical.....borders have to be controlled in the light of public health as well

Other contributing factors have to be considered in that forum --- what's the effect of GMO foods? Insecticides and herbicides?


I'd also force a closer relationship between public health / prevention efforts (CDC) and the healthcare world

That includes streamlined funding and collaborative mobility / mortality reduction goals for CDC programs that are clearly "related"
(right now for example diabetes research gets funded and managed separately from Diet/Nutrition/Physical Activity....even though they're two programs that should be linked conceptually as well as programmatically)

I'd halt all weather manipulation sciences and programs overnight by Executive Order and make that a formal announcement at the UN Gen Assy


I'd declare an end to the global war on terror and start pivoting away from our current alignment with Saudi Arabia -
We'd pull out of NATO and encourage that defunct old lady to close shop

I'd align more closely with our neighbors in this hemisphere
Make it easier for actual labor migrants to come and work - and get them under a consumption tax

I'd set fire to Neydland stadium while piss drunk and wearing a clown mask / no pants

I'd allow Japanese armed forces to practice their new freedom to deploy overseas -- but assigning them to NC Chapel Hill with the orders to systematically (and politically)_ dismantle everything related to UNC basketball

If everyone in this thread can’t at least get behind the last 2 ideas, then you’re dead to me.

 

[Dionysus444]

I think the limited scope / non-Marxist variant of SOC thet some have discussed is really a hybrid / blended economy like we already have

Not really "Socialism" in the end - agree?

Agreed. That's why I said what I said about your communism boner that started this debate. We need less screaming over who subscribes to what "-ism" and more focus on specific policies. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is dismissed out of hand because she's a "socialist" and her platform is then ignored.

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

But muh steel

 

[USSLair]

Inflation is outpacing GDP and wage growth. MAGA!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-inflation-rates-20180713-story.html

What's up lying sack of poop fuzz.

 

[Levibooty]

Do you think that European socialist states would have developed and functioned the same (or similar / or worse etc) between 1945 and 1985 if the United States hadn't maintained / innovated and invested in such extensive defense infrastructure?

I wonder about that - surely it would have had some kind of impact on the economies of multiple Euro nations if we pulled 80% of our forces out of Europe after WW2 ..... and never joined NATO.......

How would they have paid for / maintained / managed and continually upgraded collective defense - outside of the (largely) US dominated system that we DID have in place?


It would have forced them to re-arrange some budget line items each Fiscal Year, No?

Which would have changed how they funded various aspects of their socialist systems


Which makes it sound like their socio-economic systems existed in a somewhat artificial environment


^ That's a theory of mine -- it's not necessarily a conviction

Do you think it's a reasonable one?


My point is that the western Euro models of SOC were well funded by outside help (USA) and wouldn't have been as appealing if the Cold War era EURO's had to foot the entire bill for keeping Ivan out of their back yard


Hell -- it's a moot point now of course
Europe has a whole new set of issues on their hands

Yes but the thinking was the Axis powers wouldn't stop with Europe, Asia, and the south seas.

 

[AustinTXCat]

 

[CastleRubric]

Yes but the thinking was the Axis powers wouldn't stop with Europe, Asia, and the south seas.

Or our allies the Soviet Mass Murdering Bastard Party.....

It's an interesting angle to wonder about


I don't think that we had much of a choice but to stick around in EURO after 1945

I think we should have tried to topple Stalin and forment instability there though


And used the nascent CIA to drug and disorient a young Dean Smith.....then incriminate him by leaving. him nekkid and covered in honey and cocaine in an all girls dorm





Plus .....nevremind

 

[oldsports_]

Inflation is outpacing GDP and wage growth. MAGA!
http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-inflation-rates-20180713-story.html

When the economy is booming, this always happens. Name one time that the effect of a strong economy didn't raise inflation?
Reaching.??

 

[CastleRubric]

Agreed. That's why I said what I said about your communism boner that started this debate. We need less screaming over who subscribes to what "-ism" and more focus on specific policies. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is dismissed out of hand because she's a "socialist" and her platform is then ignored.

Socialism 'should be met with healthy skepticism (not screaming - I'm not coming from a. 'screaming' POV here -- just the opposite actually)

Honestly -- would you seriously consider the merits of a re-vamoed German National Socialist Workers party (i.e. Nazis) emerging and running for office with an 'improved' platform?

You probably wouldn't -
Why not?
They got the perm-ban didn't they?

I feel the same way about Marxist ideology - it should likewise be eliminated from any serious consideration within our political system


Socialism per Marx will call for the overthrow or replacement of the system we currently have (among other things - confiscation of private property / yada yada)

So is Ms Cortez coming from the Marxist school of thought or is she specifically rebuking that and explaining in detail how another path is possible?
(not trying to set you up here - I really just don't know)



Do you agree that calling for the overthrow or replacement of our constitutional republic is 'off limits' for any revised socialist that becomes active?



Once you realize the scale of horror and brutality that happened at their hand
And once you take a look at the modern socialists F'ing it up again in South America AND South Africa right now......it's easy to come to a place where. it just doesn't make sense to even consisdering their ideas anymore

but admittedly I AM intrigued by the Pre Marx ideas that the French had
so I think that's where YOU are probably coming from .....

so what are some specific programs / budget decisions that you see Neo-Socialists making?

(meanwhile I'll pull up the book I have that outlines some of the earlier ideas on SOC that no one hears about anymore -- will post anything that seems relevant and cite the book in case you think it might be worth getting etc)

 

[screwduke1]

 

[Bill - Shy Cat]

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He plays for the team that kicked your crooked ass!