Gonzocat90 vs. drcats2013
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While I think Gonzo's team wins this match up in a head-to-head if everyone's healthy, long term, and by that I mean a full season is not easy for CP3 these days. Hasn't the guy missed the past two or three entire playoffs due to injury?
No. But he did average 25, 10, 5 boards, 2 steals and 2 made threes per game while shooting 50% from the floor this past postseason. Played in every game.
If you guys just want to be convinced he's old and broken despite what stats and reality say, I'm not sure there's much I can do.
Maybe check out Kevin Love's injury history (playoffs included) lately. Or we can discuss the wear and tear Thibs put on Butler's knees before trying to put my point guard in the ground.
CP3 missed two games in the 2015 playoffs against Houston, a series they eventually lost in 7. In the 2016 playoffs he broke his hand. Last year he he missed a total of 21 games due to injury/rest and dealt with a lingering thumb injury for the second half of the season.
I think you're taking this criticism of CP3 a little too personally. Dude is an amazing player. One of the top 5 pg's in the league and one of the most productive players to ever play the game. He is also one of the most competitive players we've seen. Whether it's being a part of the Clippers organization where things just never seem to go right or it is in fact Paul getting a little bit older and starting to show some wear on his tires, he is probably past his prime. He is still unbelievably productive and makes almost any team in the league that he joins a playoff contender. But teams who are in the market to sign him are the ones trying to win right now. Not the ones putting the pieces in place to win for the next decade.
You said he missed "the entire playoffs" the past two or three years. That isn't even close to being true.
Being injured/resting doesn't mean anyone is done. Kyrie and Love both missed major playoff time and games during the season in the last couple years. AD has played 70 games once in his career. Steph missed a handful of games in the playoffs the last couple years and that's with the Warriors resting him in the fourth quarter and giving him nights off. Durant missed a big chunk of the year this season.
There's zero evidence that Chris Paul is past his prime or slowing down. Zero. He dragged that disaster of a franchise to the playoffs with injuries all up and down the roster and still was first team all defense. I've also pointed out how historically great PG's age, and he's ahead of the curve even among guys like Stockton, Kidd and Nash that had success late into their careers. He's 32, not 38.
I don't take it personally at all, I just think it's absurd to have a discussion where people ignore facts and statistics based on how they feel or what they think they remember.
The injury concerns with CP3 are legitimate. When Gonzo's picked CP3 he tried to use the template of John Stockton to argue that CP3 could be effective late into his career.
On one hand that is a very strong argument. If you look at stats and advanced metrics John Stockton and CP3 are nearly identical. The problem is with longevity. Can CP3 be effective into his late 30s? Possibly.
Stockton was from a different era and extremely durable. He played every regular season game in 18 of his 19 seasons. He missed the beginning of the 98 season recovering from knee surgery, but still came back and led the Jazz to the Finals. CP3 on the other hand has only play all 82 games once... that's not a huge issue, NBA organizations these days care less about playing every day, so they may hold players out on back to backs, road trips, or for other reasons that wouldn't have kept players out a decade ago. He sat out fewer than 10 games in about 7 of his 12 seasons. The concern I have is that 2 of the last 3 seasons he had injuries in the playoffs that knocked him out. That suggests that his body is breaking down over the course of the season. Or maybe I'm just being a hater and picking nits.
Maybe not taking it personally, just that the majority on here differ from your opinion on CP3 and his long term future as a productive player in the league. I get that. Gonzo you focused on one comment of mine which I then went back and did the research on to show what exactly Paul has missed in the last few seasons. I don't really care about Love or Kyrie. I'd never support them as I think they're wildly overrated and don't realize how much they depend on LeBron to reach the fulfillment of their own game. Anthony Davis, one of the true titans of Kentucky basketball, went from a guy early in his career who could be seen as the next icon of the NBA to a player who gets mentioned as the 4th or 5th option as someone you'd start a franchise around due to concerns of his durability. And I think it's safe to say that the Warriors have enough firepower for one of their players to miss time. I believe they even encouraged Durant to take as much time as he needed to heal because, as Draymond said, they didn't sign him for the regular season.
I'm not comparing CP3 to Brett Favre on the Vikings in his final years. And when a player is past his prime it doesn't mean he's awful. LeBron is on the back end of his career and one could argue he is past his prime given the amount of minutes he's played up to this point. No one is telling him to get off the court anytime soon. But if you started a franchise today looking down the road, 10 years from now...would you start it around LeBron or a guy like Karl Towns? That's all I'm saying about Paul. Like many others on here it's just the idea of thinking down the road, who the safer bet would be. A pick up game today? Paul would be one of the first guys selected. But if your job was on the line and it was your responsibility to consider the next decade of an organization, is Paul the PG you go with? Or do you consider a guy with a few less years and not quite as many injuries in his medical history?
I'm not comparing CP3 to Brett Favre on the Vikings in his final years. And when a player is past his prime it doesn't mean he's awful. LeBron is on the back end of his career and one could argue he is past his prime given the amount of minutes he's played up to this point. No one is telling him to get off the court anytime soon. But if you started a franchise today looking down the road, 10 years from now...would you start it around LeBron or a guy like Karl Towns? That's all I'm saying about Paul. Like many others on here it's just the idea of thinking down the road, who the safer bet would be. A pick up game today? Paul would be one of the first guys selected. But if your job was on the line and it was your responsibility to consider the next decade of an organization, is Paul the PG you go with? Or do you consider a guy with a few less years and not quite as many injuries in his medical history?
A couple of points. I think you always go with Karl Towns and everyone should vote for the team he's on.
Also, Gonzo did a great job of balancing winning now and protecting his roster into the future. CP3 can win now. Markelle Fultz can take over and win in the future.... there is some inherent risk with Fultz. Nobody knows exactly how good he is. But I keep going back to Fultz being the consensus "best" point guard in a deep class of point guards (Fultz, Ball, Fox, Smith Jr., and Ntikila) were all drafted in the lottery and were all picked up by someone in this exercise.
I hear you, I just don't think Chris Paul has a noticeable decline for at least 4-5 more seasons. This is a 7 year exercise. I'm not taking a guy who's 28-29 that isn't as good as Chris Paul now, and isn't going to get better either.
For example, I'd rather have a 32 year old LeBron than a 28 year old Gordon Hayward, or even a 22 year old Andrew Wiggins just because I think he's that much better as a player to the point that even when he's "older" he's still better. Now, if it's Giannis or LeBron, you take the young, elite guy.
To remove names, I'm saying I'd rather have four years of a "10" and three years of a "7" than seven years of an "8." Especially when I have Fultz behind him.
John Wall will be 28. Westbrook will be 30. Steph will be 30. Lillard will be 28. Conley will be 30. IT will be 30. By the time CP3 "slows down" those guys will be "old" too. Do they have the top pick in the draft behind them?
For example, I'd rather have a 32 year old LeBron than a 28 year old Gordon Hayward, or even a 22 year old Andrew Wiggins just because I think he's that much better as a player to the point that even when he's "older" he's still better. Now, if it's Giannis or LeBron, you take the young, elite guy.
To remove names, I'm saying I'd rather have four years of a "10" and three years of a "7" than seven years of an "8." Especially when I have Fultz behind him.
John Wall will be 28. Westbrook will be 30. Steph will be 30. Lillard will be 28. Conley will be 30. IT will be 30. By the time CP3 "slows down" those guys will be "old" too. Do they have the top pick in the draft behind them?
The other part of the conversation is whether an elite point guard is even necessary. If you go back and look at the strong traditional point guards, in the mold of CP3, how many of those guys win titles? The guys winning titles are more of scoring point guards than facilitators. Looking back at the NBA champs there aren't a lot of assist leaders at point guards.
Assist Rankings for Starting PGs on the NBA Champs
2017 - Steph 12th
2016 - Kyrie 18th
2015 - Steph 6th
2014 - Parker 20th
2013 - Chalmers (not top-40)
2012 - Chalmers 40th
2011 - Kidd 8th
2010 - Fisher (not top-40)
2009 - Fisher (not top 40)
2008 - Rondo - 21st
2007 - Parker - 19th
2006 - Williams - 24th
The point is, scoring point guards like Steph, Kyrie, and Tony Parker tend to fair better in winning titles. At least that's what the trends seem to suggest.
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Help fellow cat fans, I need your votes. Don't let this team with Chris Paul and Draymond win. I'll pay each of you for your vote. Whatever is necessary for me to win. Help!!!!!
Yeah John Wall will be 28...in two birthdays. I think he will be fine.
But if you think he's going to break down at 33, then Chris Paul really is in trouble.
I would say that correlation does not equal causation.
Magic Johnson racked up a lot of assists on the way to 5 rings. And it wasn't like he just pounded the ball and hunted assists.
Great players win Titles, and systems come and go. Phil Jackson won 11 Titles in two decades with a system that wasn't conducive to racking up assists.
But I bet he still would have won with Michael and Scotty and Shaq and Kobe if he'd played like the Showtime Lakers.
On how many of those teams were they they third best player?
The reason it's rare is because you don't often see an elite passing point guard on the same team as an elite scorer.
Though maybe you could point out the starting center for those same championship teams (Duncan is a PF) and then explain your Towns pick.
![[laughing]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/laugh.r191677.gif "Laughing [laughing]")
Towns can play PF [tears of laughter emoji]On how many of those teams were they they third best player?
The reason it's rare is because you don't often see an elite passing point guard on the same team as an elite scorer.
Though maybe you could point out the starting center for those same championship teams (Duncan is a PF) and then explain your Towns pick.
I'm putting Chris Paul at PF because a point guard with lots of assists is a bad thing but if a 32 year old power forward does it he's LeBron James and will be good forever.
Give me Gonzo.. a lot of two way players on that squad which you can not have enough of.
Kawhi, Draymond, Bradley, CP3, RoCo
You have a nice squad with the guys that are known to be two way players.
Fultz obviously is an added bonus if he turns out to be the player all expect. Lopez and Adams are too completely different bigs and can be situational plays depending on the team
Kawhi, Draymond, Bradley, CP3, RoCo
You have a nice squad with the guys that are known to be two way players.
Fultz obviously is an added bonus if he turns out to be the player all expect. Lopez and Adams are too completely different bigs and can be situational plays depending on the team
Yeah this was not a first round matchup, but random is the only fair way to do it. There are about four guys on your roster I had planned on grabbing. If you're interested in trading them for cash considerations, let me know.
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