Semi-Finals UKNorse Vs. GonzoCat90
- Thread starter DraftCat
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Your argument is that Jokic can't guard on the perimeter? Okay, you win that one.
I go back and forth on this matchup. Oddly on UKNorse's side the piece that sways me to him is the backcourt pairing of Murray/Beal. I think that is a perfect duo. It's like a better version of Dame/McCollum and with guards that have actually bothered to win a playoff series. And on Gonzo's side it's his defensive prowess.
When I'm critical of either roster I look at Norse's (limited) defense.... and with Gonzo the biggest issue for me (which I was going to save for a potential finals matchup but unfortunately that doesn't look likely) is picking Donovan Mitchell in the 2nd round. Mitchell is fine, actually a superstar if this fictional league is only played from Feb-April. But he starts each season slow, and really doesn't even bother to show up in the playoffs. Against Houston he shot 11/43 from 3, and combined that with 21 turnovers. Utah was significantly better every time Donovan went to the bench. Perhaps that was a fluke. I'm sure it was.
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Your switched vote. If it's close and about the debate, there's no contest in this one. I appreciate your willingness to be swayed.
Gonzo how would your team play? Are you taking the ball out of Kawhi hands and making Simmons the primary ball handler? Only way he's worth starting unless used only for defense and fast breaks. Offensively he's garbage in the half court.
Do you use Kawhi as your primary ball handler and relegate Simmons and Mitchel to spot up roles? Good luck with that one.
Only reason Gonzo this is even close is because outside of Kawhi you picked two "elite pieces" that don't fit. Mitchell and Simmons needs the ball to produce. I look at it like a Lebron situation when he was in Miami with Wade and Bosh. Same situation but Simmons can't shoot and Mitchell isn't close to being what Wade was.
Making a note before you cry about Simmons "usage" he shared the ball with 4 allstars and still managed to be 4th best player on his team. He would have a higher usage on your fictional team.
Do you use Kawhi as your primary ball handler and relegate Simmons and Mitchel to spot up roles? Good luck with that one.
Only reason Gonzo this is even close is because outside of Kawhi you picked two "elite pieces" that don't fit. Mitchell and Simmons needs the ball to produce. I look at it like a Lebron situation when he was in Miami with Wade and Bosh. Same situation but Simmons can't shoot and Mitchell isn't close to being what Wade was.
Making a note before you cry about Simmons "usage" he shared the ball with 4 allstars and still managed to be 4th best player on his team. He would have a higher usage on your fictional team.
Right. Well I'm not 100% one way or the other and it's not all about the debate (I have my own opinions). But I find the debate over here far more enjoyable than whatever you call what's happening in my matchup.
I've explained at least three times how I'd use Simmons. I've even explained how my roster fits alongside real-life scenarios that we've seen be successful.
Good teams have multiple ways of playing. Just like how sometimes the Warriors let Steph be the point guard, sometimes they let Durant attack and then move the ball to open shooters, and sometimes they play through Draymond surrounded by shooters.
Why you insist on Ben Simmons standing at the top of the key dribbling while no one moves or cuts or anything else, I have no idea, but it's embarrassing for you.
You haven't really been too respectful in this debate. It's always how "its embarrassing for you" or "you shouldn't even discuss NBA basketball again" If you could leave the personal attacks alone that would be awesome.
Your arguments in my opinion are all subjective like you will make up how you play as you go. I think that is an easy way of answering without giving a good answer. Hell you won't even give me your starting line up. It is what it is. If you could give straight forward answers instead of circular ones we could have a real debate.
I think the biggest strength I've had over the field is how my team fits together. Every single player has a role on my team that they play in real life. I don't need to pigeon hold players into positions or roles to make my team work.
Murray, Beal,Ingram, Love, Jokic all have a defined role.
Kawhi, Mitchell, Ben Simmons, ?, ? cause Gonzo won't reveal his starting lineup. Roles that would need to be defined and would be harder to put together.
Murray, Beal,Ingram, Love, Jokic all have a defined role.
Kawhi, Mitchell, Ben Simmons, ?, ? cause Gonzo won't reveal his starting lineup. Roles that would need to be defined and would be harder to put together.
Speaks to the Kings management. God-Awful during that time period. BUT BUT Jimmer can shoot from 40
I'm making up how I would play as I go because that's how coaching works. It's why I've said over and over that the best teams can play multiple ways.
We are in an imaginary league with undefined nightly opponents. That anyone would just try to do the same thing every game is insane.
And even still, I've explained how I'd use Simmons. I even explained a few ways I could play without him entirely.
Did Middleton and Bledsoe just stand and watch when Giannis would facilitate? Did Durant and Steph just stand around when Draymond ran the offense?
Pick any five of my guys that doesn't have 3 bigs on the floor together at once and I can tell you how they'll play. But then I get to do the same with your team.
You talk a lot about pieces fitting together, so let's see.
It's almost like a scoring combo guard who gives you nothing else isn't as valuable as a two-way superstar no matter how much people love him.
You're right. Doesn't fit anywhere in this debate.
I'm not sure if that's a shot at Murray or someone else. If it is directed at Murray it misses the mark by a wide margin.
I would have picked Murray before Fox, except somehow the team with Fox and a lot less is currently beating me.
I think Gonzo is getting a little heated. The way he talks this vote shouldn't even be close right now. But it is. I do think I win this match up comfortably if it wasn't for Kawhi crazy game 7 shot and KD and Klay injuries.
People are treating Kawhi right now like he's prime Lebron.
Fox is the same size, much quicker, an excellent defender, an actual playmaker, and shot 37% from 3 this year.
It's not a stretch to see that Fox is more efficient and has much higher upside as a complete player.
As the best player in the world who just won another Finals MVP as he enters his prime?
I mean, he's no Jokic, but hopefully they can just cancel each other out.
I don't think Gonzo is heated. I don't think he is taking it personally. It's all about the art of debate with him. He's great at it, and you are holding your own. It's all about framing the argument and setting the terms of the debate. Neither one of you is being drawn in to the other's box.
Fox shot half as many 3s, weighs 30 lbs less, and had 69 more turnovers.
Personally I hope you are correct that Fox has this huge upside, but there really isn't much to separate the players, and Murray's accomplished more so far.
What separates Jamal Murray from de Aaron Fox is their demeanor. Murray is more driven. Fox has a great attitude but he has other things in his life. Murray is married to basketball.
Murray also plays for a better organization. I hope fox moves on from Sacramento quickly but as long as his buddy Giles is there he’ll likely stay loyal to them. If that’s the case then I hope he milks them for every penny.
Murray also plays for a better organization. I hope fox moves on from Sacramento quickly but as long as his buddy Giles is there he’ll likely stay loyal to them. If that’s the case then I hope he milks them for every penny.
For Norse I would almost consider starting Green to Ingram.
Green is an elite defender/3pt shooter and still gives the floor spacing for cuts off horns sets from Jokic.
Ingram is tough to predict in the systems he’s been in so far.
Green is an elite defender/3pt shooter and still gives the floor spacing for cuts off horns sets from Jokic.
Ingram is tough to predict in the systems he’s been in so far.
I think your second point is really the difference. You don't improve like Fox did if you're not married to the game. He has a more gregarious personality and is more of a leader than Murray, but I think both guys work insanely hard.
The difference is that Fox plays for the awful Kings and Murray is on a team that made the right moves and hit the jackpot with a second round pick becoming All NBA.
That's absolutely a better fit, but he's already dug in about Ingram.
I guess he doesn't want two starters who will be retired before the 5 year window is up.
Good idea... that's the beauty I can switch it up depending on gameflow. Right Gonzo? That is definitely how a good coach would assess the game
I don’t understand the whole retired thing. Gasol and even Lowry will be retired in 5 yrs but was a must for TOR this yr.
Absolutely.
The problem is you've argued Brandon Ingram is good enough defensively to stop Kawhi, runs the point well, and is a blossoming superstar offensively, so you can't afford to sit him.
Especially since shooting percentages stopped mattering when I had more good shooters than you do and all defense is actually the same no matter what the numbers say.
Sure, but Toronto can trade, draft, sign free agents, etc.
If I'm trying to win as many titles in 5 years as possible and only have 10 guys on my roster, I don't want 3 guys who won't finish the 5 years, another with blood clots and another xoming off ACL surgery.
Show me the 36 and 37 year olds from this past season that you'd argue are good enough to compete in this format.
I'll agree this is a small sample size of only 6 games but after the allstar break Ingram averaged 27.8 points on 57.0 percent shooting and 52.9 percent from three, plus 7.5 rebounds and 2.5 assists in 37.2 minutes per game before he went down with his injury.
But you want to insist Ingram has no potential. He's severally underrated on my team and I have a hunch you know it.
Tell me why he only played 6 games after the all star break if he was doing so well.
Simmons
Mitchell
Kawhi
I guess are the sure starters. The rest is up in the air. I’m a big fan of the “possibles” of Grant , Brogdon & JJ but how do their minutes play out
Is there enough veteran presence there to win now with Kawhi. Every team has that role player that’s past his prime that has been an all star.
Gonzo does have more of a defensive presence no question.. and I think is more capable of getting the stop when needed, in a close game.
Mitchell
Kawhi
I guess are the sure starters. The rest is up in the air. I’m a big fan of the “possibles” of Grant , Brogdon & JJ but how do their minutes play out
Is there enough veteran presence there to win now with Kawhi. Every team has that role player that’s past his prime that has been an all star.
Gonzo does have more of a defensive presence no question.. and I think is more capable of getting the stop when needed, in a close game.
I hear you but 1 championship is better than none. Just saying if Marc Gasol was a guy that helped give TOR that one.
Brogdon plays big minutes at the 1-3. He facilitates if needed, but with the closing lineup he'd be a 3 and D secondary creator.
Grant subs mostly at the four but could go small ball 5 against really small lineups. He's used to guard combo forwards like Siakam, etc and is a lob catcher, offensive rebounder, and most importantly 3 point shooter on offense. Low usage, high efficiency.
Jackson is the stretch 5 when Simmons is facilitating, but can also play the 4 alongside Favors or Harrell so that I always have shooters on the floor. I think by year two he's the full time starter at the 5 no matter the circumstances. Future all star.
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