MLB All-Time Draft Semi-Finals Cowtown Cat vs. JHannibalSmith

[DraftCat]

Welcome to the Semi-Finals of the All-Time MLB Draft. 8 Position players... 4 Starting Pitchers.. 1 Closer (No Bench)

Objective: Head 2 Head which team wins in a best of 7 (World Series)

Rules
1. Babe Ruth and Shohei Ohtani can only be used as either a pitcher or position player.
2. Arguments are based on career averages (No 1 year wonders)
3. Two Days of voting you will be allowed to change your pick and your pick is public.

Link to Playoffs click here


@Cowtown Cat - Barry Bonds, Honus Wagner, Bob Gibson, Roberto Clemente, Robin Yount, Rod Carew, Carlton Fisk, Brooks Robinson, Whitey Ford, Paul Molitor, Goose Gossage, Madison Bumgarner, Jack Morris



vs.


@JHannibalSmith - Ted Williams, Randy Johnson, Rogers Hornsby, Clayton Kershaw, Jimmie Foxx, Max Scherzer, Roy Campanella, Tris Speaker, Jim Palmer, Rollie Fingers, Larry Walker, Hank Greenberg, Francisco Lindor.

 

[JHannibalSmith]

Starting Lineup (stats based on 162 game career average; TC=triple crown; BT=batting title)

1. CF Tris Speaker (L) .345/7 HR/89 RBI (HOF, 1 MVP, 1 BT)
2. 2B Rogers Hornsby (R) .358/22 HR/114 RBI (HOF, 2 MVP, 2 TC, 7 BT)
3. LF Ted Williams (L) .344/37 HR/130 RBI (HOF, 2 MVP, 2 TC, 6 BT, 5 MLPOY)
4. 3B Jimmie Foxx (R) .325/37 HR/134 RBI (HOF, 3 MVP, 1 TC, 2 BT)
5. RF Larry Walker (L) .313/31 HR/107 RBI (HOF, 1 MVP, 7 GG, 3 BT)
6. 1B Hank Greenberg (R) .313/38 HR/148 RBI (HOF, 2 MVP)
7. SS Francisco Lindor (L/R) .276/28 HR/90 RBI (2 GG, 1 Platinum Glove)
8. C Roy Campanella (R) .283/29 HR/114 RBI (HOF, 3 MVP, 1 BT)
9. P

Pitching Rotation (BB & K stats are per 9 innings; TC=triple crown; GG=gold glove)

Randy Johnson (L) 17-9/3.29 ERA/3 BB/11 K/WHIP 1.171 (HOF, 5 CY, 1 TC, WSMVP, 4ERA)
Max Scherzer (R) 16-8/3.12 ERA/2 BB/11 K/WHIP 1.075 (3 CY)
Clayton Kershaw (L) 17-7/2.48 ERA/2 BB/10 K/WHIP 1.000 (MVP, 3 CY, TC, GG, 5 ERA)
Jim Palmer (R) 17-10/2.86 ERA/3 BB/5 K/WHIP 1.180 (HOF, 3 CY, 4 GG, 2 ERA)

Rollie Fingers (R) 8-8/2.90 ERA/3 BB/7 K/24 saves/WHIP 1.156 (HOF, CY, MVP, WSMVP)

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Starting Lineup (stats based on 162 game career average; TC=triple crown; BT=batting title)

1. CF Tris Speaker (L) .345/7 HR/89 RBI (HOF, 1 MVP, 1 BT)
2. 2B Rogers Hornsby (R) .358/22 HR/114 RBI (HOF, 2 MVP, 2 TC, 7 BT)
3. LF Ted Williams (L) .344/37 HR/130 RBI (HOF, 2 MVP, 2 TC, 6 BT, 5 MLPOY)
4. 3B Jimmie Foxx (R) .325/37 HR/134 RBI (HOF, 3 MVP, 1 TC, 2 BT)
5. RF Larry Walker (L) .313/31 HR/107 RBI (HOF, 1 MVP, 7 GG, 3 BT)
6. 1B Hank Greenberg (R) .313/38 HR/148 RBI (HOF, 2 MVP)
7. SS Francisco Lindor (L/R) .276/28 HR/90 RBI (2 GG, 1 Platinum Glove)
8. C Roy Campanella (R) .283/29 HR/114 RBI (HOF, 3 MVP, 1 BT)
9. P

Pitching Rotation (BB & K stats are per 9 innings; TC=triple crown; GG=gold glove)

Randy Johnson (L) 17-9/3.29 ERA/3 BB/11 K/WHIP 1.171 (HOF, 5 CY, 1 TC, WSMVP, 4ERA)
Max Scherzer (R) 16-8/3.12 ERA/2 BB/11 K/WHIP 1.075 (3 CY)
Clayton Kershaw (L) 17-7/2.48 ERA/2 BB/10 K/WHIP 1.000 (MVP, 3 CY, TC, GG, 5 ERA)
Jim Palmer (R) 17-10/2.86 ERA/3 BB/5 K/WHIP 1.180 (HOF, 3 CY, 4 GG, 2 ERA)

Rollie Fingers (R) 8-8/2.90 ERA/3 BB/7 K/24 saves/WHIP 1.156 (HOF, CY, MVP, WSMVP)

Damn! Idk if I have time to research all that for my team! 🤣

 

[JonathanW]

Damn! Idk if I have time to research all that for my team! 🤣

Search Player name and “stats”, click on the “baseball-reference” website. From there in top right corner you can change the name. 15-20min you could do your 8 hitters

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Batting Order: Stats based on 162 game average. Many awards weren’t given out when Honus Wagner played.

2B - (L) Rod Carew - .328/6 HR/67RBI (HOF, ROY, 7 BT, only behind Ty Cobb in AL, 1 MVP)

SS - (R) Honus Wagner - .328/6 HR/100RBI (HOF, 8 BT, , 7 X doubles leader, 3X triples leader, 5X Stolen Base Leader & 5X RBI Leader, Fielding % .940)

RF - (R) Roberto Clemente - .317/16HR/87RBI (HOF, 4BT, 12GG, 1MVP, 1WS MVP)

LF - (L) Barry Bonds - .298/41HR/108RBI (7MVP, 8GG, 12X Silver Slugger Awards, 2BT, 2X Homerun Leader, 1X RBI Leader, Most HRs in a career, most HRs in a season)

CF - (R) Robin Yount - .286/14HR/80RBI (HOF, 2MVP - One of only 4 players to win MVP at 2 different positions, CF/SS, 1GG, 3X Silver Slugger Award)

1B - (R) Paul Molitor - .306/14HR/79RBI (HOF, 1WSMVP, 4X Silver Slugger Award)

3B - (R) Brooks Robinson - .267/15HR/76RBI (HOF, 1MVP, 1WSMVP, 16GG, 1X RBI Leader)

C - (R) Carlton Fisk - .269/24HR/86RBI (HOF, 1GG, ROY, 3X Silver Slugger Award)

 

[Cowtown Cat]

I’ll post pitching staff later. That’s the main strength of my team, playoff and World Series pitching performance. That and defense.

 

[drcats2013]

Good god this one is CLOSE lol. Man. I’ll have to see why each person thinks their team is better, because I am having a terribly hard time differentiating.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Good god this one is CLOSE lol. Man. I’ll have to see why each person thinks their team is better, because I am having a terribly hard time differentiating.

Go with best avatar then. 😉

🤣

 

[drcats2013]

Go with best avatar then. 😉

🤣

Well that settles it. Sorry Hannibal, but you are gonna have to at least get Tawnia Baker in a bikini on here to counter it instead of that ugly mug 😂

 

[JonathanW]

Going by batting order, rather than position:

Speaker = Carew
Hornsby > Wagner
Williams >> Clemente (hard to beat IMO the greatest hitter ever)
Fox < Bonds (tough one, I like Fox a lot, defense and speed give it to Bonds)
Walker > Yount (Yount is one of my 2 favorite players ever, interesting have him in CF instead of the more rare SS position, but was good defensively at both; and Walker has the Coors-effect, so it's close)
Greenberg > Molitor (also odd to not have him at 2B, instead of loaded 1B)
Lindor < Robinson (stats may point one way, but IDK, he was the gold-standard for D at 3b, and Lindor's average stats will go down as he ages)
Campanella > pudge-1

R.Johnson > Gibson (really close, like 50.1 to 49.9)
Scherzer = Ford
Kershaw > Bumgarner
Palmer > Morris
Fingers < Gossage
damn that a lot of CYA on one side!

 

[Big Cat fan]

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Going by batting order, rather than position:

Speaker = Carew
Hornsby >> Wagner
Williams >> Clemente (hard to beat IMO the greatest hitter ever)
Fox < Bonds (tough one, I like Fox a lot, defense and speed give it to Bonds)
Walker > Yount (Yount is one of my 2 favorite players ever, interesting have him in CF instead of the more rare SS position, but was good defensively at both; and Walker has the Coors-effect, so it's close)
Greenberg > Molitor (also odd to not have him at 2B, instead of loaded 1B)
Lindor < Robinson (stats may point one way, but IDK, he was the gold-standard for D at 3b, and Lindor's average stats will go down as he ages)
Campanella > pudge-1

R.Johnson > Gibson (really close, like 50.1 to 49.9)
Scherzer = Ford
Kershaw > Bumgarner
Palmer > Morris
Fingers < Gossage
damn that a lot of CYA on one side!

I centered my pitching staff around postseason success, especially World Series success. My starting pitchers have 15 World Series titles among them and my closer has 1 to boot. Bumgarner, Morris and Gibson were very much instrumental in their team’s postseason success. Ford was part of 6 World Champs himself and was a big factor in at least 1 of those.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Going by batting order, rather than position:

Speaker = Carew
Hornsby >> Wagner
Williams >> Clemente (hard to beat IMO the greatest hitter ever)
Fox < Bonds (tough one, I like Fox a lot, defense and speed give it to Bonds)
Walker > Yount (Yount is one of my 2 favorite players ever, interesting have him in CF instead of the more rare SS position, but was good defensively at both; and Walker has the Coors-effect, so it's close)
Greenberg > Molitor (also odd to not have him at 2B, instead of loaded 1B)
Lindor < Robinson (stats may point one way, but IDK, he was the gold-standard for D at 3b, and Lindor's average stats will go down as he ages)
Campanella > pudge-1

R.Johnson > Gibson (really close, like 50.1 to 49.9)
Scherzer = Ford
Kershaw > Bumgarner
Palmer > Morris
Fingers < Gossage
damn that a lot of CYA on one side!

Hornsby over Wagner is very debatable just glancing at this.

 

[JonathanW]

Hornsby over Wagner is very debatable just glancing at this.

Similar era, so easier to compare the two. Although Hornsby mostly after deadball era.

Both good hitters, but Hornsby 30-40 pts better on Ave and OBP, both playing when the best of the best had inflated averages.
Hornsby much more power, BUT was that due to end of deadball era? But 3 years he had Gehrig level HRs (39+). So maybe he only had a little more power, but still more.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Similar era, so easier to compare the two. Although Hornsby mostly after deadball era.

Both good hitters, but Hornsby 30-40 pts better on Ave and OBP, both playing when the best of the best had inflated averages.
Hornsby much more power, BUT was that due to end of deadball era? But 3 years he had Gehrig level HRs (39+). So maybe he only had a little more power, but still more.

More power. However, Wagner was the better all around player.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Will post pitching stats later. My rotation is:

1. Bob Gibson
2. Madison Bumgarner
3. Jack Morris
4. Whitey Ford

Closer:

Goose Gossage

 

[JHannibalSmith]

Haven’t had any time today to get on here & it looks like it’s already too late, anyway. But, I’ll give my 2 cents for shits & giggles. The offenses are different & would be close to a wash, IMO, if Bonds’ best numbers were legit. Personally, I don’t even consider his last few seasons bc he was never a 50+ HR guy til LATE in his career when he started juicing. He transformed into a cro-magnon, physically, lol. Now, he was a HOFer & top 5 all-time LFer anyway, before the steroids, so, he didn’t need to do it. But, IMO, he’s a .285/33/100 player & not what the PEDs & body armor inflated him into.

I really like his hitters & batting order, too. But, the power production 1-8 isn’t very close. Brooks Robinson is a god defensively, but, average at best, offensively. My lineup doesn’t have a hole like that. I have 4 of the top 10 career OPS leaders & 5 of the top 19. He’s better defensively, & his team would probably be better at manufacturing runs. But, I think I have the edge in total offensive production.

Pitching is close bc of his postseason success, but, Whitey Ford alone accounts for a big chunk of that. He had the advantage of playing for arguably the greatest dynasty in baseball history. My pitchers have 9 WS wins, with 2 WSMVPs & a combined 15 CY awards. They got it done in the regular season AND the playoffs. But, @drcats2013 i can’t compete in the avatar department, lol. Few can. He has a HOFer there, too.

And, he’s a great dude so if I have to lose, I can live with losing to him. Although, I’m kinda regretting my last second vote for him last round, now. I didn’t even look at when the poll was closing & it turned out that it closed 2 min after I voted, sending him into the sudden death OT vote where he won. So, I did it to myself, lol.

When you get this deep in these playoffs every team is gonna be damn near perfect so it’s kinda like picking nits, looking for advantages. Both are extremely well constructed teams with very few flaws. I think my pitching & offensive power is a little deeper & would be the difference in a 7 game series, which this would most likely go 7 games. In that scenario it’s basically Bumgarner & Morris against Kershaw & Palmer in game 7 & I like my chances there. But, I can see his two guys stepping up, too. BTW, @Cowtown Cat i think this is the first time we’ve played each other in these things. Weird, considering we’ve been in like 10 of them, now.

 

[JHannibalSmith]

Go with best avatar then. 😉

🤣

NO, NO, NOOO!!! 😂

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Barry Bonds is the greatest baseball player to ever live.

Cough...roids...cough...must be kidding

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

No offense my friend @Cowtown Cat but I'm shocked that you're winning. Much like having The Babe, having Bonds is getting too many easy votes and worse, the man was a cheater. I just can't reward a juicer.

 

[drcats2013]

These are legit two of my favorite posters on this board, so it’s hard to make a pick. I feel to be fair to this contest, as a contestant myself, I have to. After looking this over so many times, I have to give an ever so slight edge to Hannibal. While Cowtown does have some amazing postseason success on his pitching staff, I just think Hannibals is a touch better. Offense is pretty even to me, so that is my deciding factor.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Pitching stats:

Bob Gibson (R) - 17-12/2.91 ERA/ 2.53 BB/5.9 K/WHIP 1.19 (HOF, 2X Cy Young, 2X WS Champ, 2X WSMVP, 9GG, 1X ERA leader, 1X wins & SO leader)

Madison Bumgarner (L) - 13-12/3.46 ERA/ 1.52BB/5.78 K/WHIP 2.4 (3X WS Champ, 1X WSMVP, 1X MVP, 2X Silver Slugger Award, MLB records - <0.25 WS ERA - minimum 20 innings pitched, 52 2/3 innings pitched in one postseason, 2 grand slams in single postseason>)

Jack Morris (R) - 13-12/3.47 ERA/ 2.53BB/4.51 K/WHIP 1.3 (HOF, 4X WS Champ, 1WSMVP, 2X wins leader, 1X SO leader)

Whitey Ford (L) - 17-8/2.75 ERA/ 2.18BB/3.93 K/WHIP 1.22 (HOF, 6X WS Champ, 1WSMVP, 2XERA leader, 1X Cy Young, 3X wins leader)

Goose Gossage (R) - 8-7/3.01 ERA/ .73BB/ 1.5K/WHIP 1.23/ 14 saves (HOF, 1X WS Champ, 3X saves leader

The objective was who would win in a best of 7 World Series format. Starters have 15 WS Championships between them and my closer has 1. That’s 16 WS victories between 5 pitchers. My staff is absolute NAILS in a playoff format, especially Bumgarner & Morris.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

No offense my friend @Cowtown Cat but I'm shocked that you're winning. Much like having The Babe, having Bonds is getting too many easy votes and worse, the man was a cheater. I just can't reward a juicer.

He was a top 5 all around best player before he ever “juiced”.

 

[drcats2013]

He was a top 5 all around best player before he ever “juiced”.

He was. I agree there. I don’t punish for bonds or Clemens. Maybe Sammy or McGwire, but not those two. I also think Bonds has hurt you more than helped you due to people upset over the roids, so I disagree with his assessment of he gaining you unnecessary votes.

 

[JonathanW]

Bonds was a HOF player (Clemens too) before he juiced. But IDK about top 5. Top 20, clearly. Maybe top 10. And that's how I treated him in my voting. So I wouldn't say I "punish" for Bonds, but rather I make an adjustment for him (essentially he never hit 73 HRs, didn't win those 4 b2b MVPs, and 1/2 of those last 350 HRs never happened). He still finishes with just under 600 HRs to add to his 3 MVPs (& a runner up), & 500 steals. So among OFs, he's right there behind Mays, Aaron, Ruth, Williams, just ahead of Mantle & DiMaggio.

It's clear the year after the McGwire/Sosa chase is when Bonds started juicing. Not a coincidence. Before that he had an age 25-33 prime averaging 36.3 hr/yr, 1 hr every 4.1 games or 17.5 PA or 13.9 AB. Then at an age players have a decline, age 34-39, Bonds improved his rates by nearly 40%, averaging 48.7 hr/yr, 1 hr every 2.8 games or 11.9 PA or 8.5 AB.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

Bonds was a HOF player (Clemens too) before he juiced. But IDK about top 5. Top 20, clearly. Maybe top 10. And that's how I treated him in my voting. So I wouldn't say I "punish" for Bonds, but rather I make an adjustment for him (essentially he never hit 73 HRs, didn't win those 4 b2b MVPs, and 1/2 of those last 350 HRs never happened). He still finishes with just under 600 HRs to add to his 3 MVPs (& a runner up), & 500 steals. So among OFs, he's right there behind Mays, Aaron, Ruth, Williams, just ahead of Mantle & DiMaggio.

It's clear the year after the McGwire/Sosa chase is when Bonds started juicing. Not a coincidence. Before that he had an age 25-33 prime averaging 36.3 hr/yr, 1 hr every 4.1 games or 17.5 PA or 13.9 AB. Then at an age players have a decline, age 34-39, Bonds improved his rates by nearly 40%, averaging 48.7 hr/yr, 1 hr every 2.8 games or 11.9 PA or 8.5 AB.

Top 5 of his era.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Top 5 of his era.

I'd much rather Bonds never messing with steroids. I love baseball and appreciate the great players even if I dont like them. Now they've made a blurry mess of an entire era.