Your last sentence summarized the program the last several years.
Rich Paul throws shade at Cal regarding Chris Livingston
- Thread starter Woodsmoke
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I predict Karter Knox to be the next Livingston BTW and why I didn’t want him
when did this Livingston kid play at UK? Where was he from? Who were some of his teammates? I remember Greg Starrick. He was a one a doner from Marion, Illinois
Livingston was the poster child player for Cal for the last several years. Looks like Tarzan, plays like Jane. Good to great athlete with little to no basketball skill. Before I get blasted by the Cal Cultists, I know we had a few skilled players like Dilly and Shep but they were few and far between. We had way more Wagner's, Edwards and Onyenso's, who could only do one thing well and that just doesn't cut it in modern day college basketball.
Bingo. I didn’t want Livingston either and went on rants about it. Then I didn’t want Knox either and went on rants about that. Karter Knox is another kid that’s going to leave immediately and can’t contribute in 1 year. The Calipari special.
But he will get to the NBA somehow in some way so Cal gets to have that notch in his belt.
Maybe back when he had guys like Scheyer and Singler.. but I didn't see it in his more recent 1AD years.. And I think if guys like Tatum and Johnson and RJ did actually improve in their one season, Coach K would have a LITTLE more success with 1AD than just one final 4 and a bunch of early tournament flameouts. And this is despite all the help he has from the ACC, NCAA, etc. He had 5 or 6 #1 recruiting classes, with several top10 players in each, not be able to make it past the 2nd weekend of the tournament.
At the end of the day, Cal still DID have guys like SGA, Herro, Nick Richards, Shep, Booker.. And while I will agree with most, that this was more just Cal's eye for talent than developing it (and also finding guys who WANT to put in the work).. Coach K didn't have these results. He doens't have a 30th ranked guy in the NBA vying for all-team awards, after just a season or two. The guys Coach K got into the NBA, were just like the John Wall's we had: guys who were likely going to the NBA if even you or I coached them. You could MAYBE make the argument for the Jones brothers, Grayson Allen, or GTJ.. but those are all role players, or starters on bad teams. They aren't on the level of SGA, Herro or Booker and will be out of the NBA in a year or two.
Agree 100% which is why you cant trust ranking when they come from someone under 30. This generation is agenda driven
Agreed, after maxey and quickley I began to question talent evaluation. Sure they were landing top kids, but the ej Montgomery’s and dj Jeffries, oof.
Feels like it was all about the younger the better just 5 years ago. Now in an instant it’s about the 23 year old seasoned player, why? Because they’re winning.
Joel Justus. What a disaster that guy was. And paired with Tony Barbee. Woof. Well, the funny part for UK fans is those guys were more proven than Brad Calipari is at Arkansas so I hope that blows up in their face. Earned not given lol. That just shows me that Cal is not serious about maximizing his resources at Arkansas and is only in it to cash a few more paychecks and to get Brad's feet wet to set him up.
Yep - overhyped based on being physically way ahead of other players in his class. Then you move up a level and that physical advantage is gone. Now what else you got? You better have some basketball skills and feel for the game.
The Brad hire, and the comment about still being player-first. Two very big red-flags. Add in losing guys like Welch and Orlando, the only two guys actually worth anything on the staff.
I sort of figured that basically being more-or-less fired from UK, he would have gotten the wake up call to actually start sort of coaching again.. or at least trying to win. Doing what he did back in his early UK years. His career and legacy is on the line, and it seems he's just going to keep doing what he's been doing, regardless of the results.
Chris was rated 16 in the class by 247 and 11th by rivals. lets not act like people thought he was John wall coming in. its common for freshman rated around 15th to need more than one year.
Yes but when you already know and have heard the player himself say that he is OAD no matter what, if he’s not an immediate impact player, stay away. Especially one that has all these Klingons like Klutch controlling the narrative.
It was time for Cal to leave because I don't think his team building philosophy could win championships. However, blaming Cal for Livingson, Bradshaw, Edwards, etc... is easy, but lame.
First, the NBA is a shooter's league. Second, wing players must have good handles, especially if they're not knock-down shooters. CL had not developed a consistent jump shot and was a sketchy ball handler. (Both can be developed after a few years in the league.)
I clearly remember hearing reports of how CL was going to be a great small ball 4, and he was coming to UK to fill this position. Chris would have been much better his one year at UK playing the small ball 4. I don't know where this broke down, but it's obvious CL and Klutch wanted him at wing and guard.
If Cal gets blamed for CL, Edwards, and Bradshaw ... then he deserves credit for Sheppard, Dillingham, SGA, and a long list of others. The ability to shoot the ball is the major difference between these players. PJ developed a good jump shot his sophomore year. Randle developed his after a couple years in NY.
Bottom line for me. Cal brought in some very talented players. Many of them met or exceeded expectations. Some of them did not meet expectations. Paul loses credibility by not discussing both sides.
I appreciate Cal's time at UK, but I'm glad we moved on. The college basketball game changed and Cal refused to change with it. He's being forced to change his philosophy at Ark, but we'd always be one of the youngest teams if he remained at UK. It will probably work out well for all parties involved.
First, the NBA is a shooter's league. Second, wing players must have good handles, especially if they're not knock-down shooters. CL had not developed a consistent jump shot and was a sketchy ball handler. (Both can be developed after a few years in the league.)
I clearly remember hearing reports of how CL was going to be a great small ball 4, and he was coming to UK to fill this position. Chris would have been much better his one year at UK playing the small ball 4. I don't know where this broke down, but it's obvious CL and Klutch wanted him at wing and guard.
If Cal gets blamed for CL, Edwards, and Bradshaw ... then he deserves credit for Sheppard, Dillingham, SGA, and a long list of others. The ability to shoot the ball is the major difference between these players. PJ developed a good jump shot his sophomore year. Randle developed his after a couple years in NY.
Bottom line for me. Cal brought in some very talented players. Many of them met or exceeded expectations. Some of them did not meet expectations. Paul loses credibility by not discussing both sides.
I appreciate Cal's time at UK, but I'm glad we moved on. The college basketball game changed and Cal refused to change with it. He's being forced to change his philosophy at Ark, but we'd always be one of the youngest teams if he remained at UK. It will probably work out well for all parties involved.
From what I could see the last 2-3 seasons was that the only coach worth his weight left before Cal decided to bolt to Arkansas.
Cal was horrible his last four years here, but I'm not blaming him for Livingston's lack of development.
The kid had no handle and because of that fact alone, he became rather easy to defend. Cal was essentially forced to use him as a spot-up shooter or garbage rebounder/put-back guy. Cal wanted to play him a the 4, but Klutch wasn't having it. That ended up being a massive disservice for the young man.
The kid had no handle and because of that fact alone, he became rather easy to defend. Cal was essentially forced to use him as a spot-up shooter or garbage rebounder/put-back guy. Cal wanted to play him a the 4, but Klutch wasn't having it. That ended up being a massive disservice for the young man.
I agree with you but I do fault Cal and staff for recruiting him in the first place.
This. It was a huge distraction for the team and CL was a me first player who didn’t want to sacrifice for the team. Stay away from those types of players. Cal never learned.
I like this because I feel like it will do damage to Cal and Klutch. That’s a win win in my book.
Yea that’s kind of being missed in all of this. I don’t see anyway Calipari’s recruiting stays at the top level when you’ve got very influential guys saying this kind of stuff. I mean Paul literally said he’s screwed up his players careers. I don’t see them steering many back his way. And you know the feeling is similar with Edwards. Honestly I think Calipari ruined Edwards. When it was obvious he needed to be played sporadically to protect his limitations he continued overplaying him to a crazy level. He showed the world how overrated he was. I’m sure to some degree that was Edwards and his handlers wanting that but at what point do we hold the coach of the team accountable? Also of note as I said Dilly appears to be disgruntled right now and has basically said Calipari didn’t do anything for him either. So again, at what point is it the coaches issue and not just everyone else is crazy?
But yea I’m like you I think recruiting will take a hit because let’s be honest, Arkansas isn’t Kentucky and that does matter at this level. Calipari’s name is getting hit pretty hard by these players, and also contrary to what Calipari was able to convince a lot of people of, many of these players DO want to win. And with Calipari not only does he not win, but he’s built a culture where he admits winning isn’t a priority. I don’t think the next round of Kobe Bryant’s are lining up to play for a guy that couldn’t care less about winning regardless of money. Competitors want to win.
This. Hes doing his job. Hes wrong and I don't like him generally, but hes doing his job
Yea him too. And you watch Bradshaw will be much improved next season I’d bet on it. Last point on this.
I don’t agree with the guy above that says you have to credit him with the successful players in terms of development. These things aren’t equal just because. Calipari does not develop talent but some of that talent ends up being really really talented and can play. He’s always recruiting top classes so yea some of them will be really good.
What did he do for SGA exactly? What did he do for AD? He played some of these guys the opposite of how they play in the pros so, he certainly didn’t teach AD his long game. AD doesn’t need Calipari to learn to rebound and block a shot.
With Calipari I think the truth is many of these guys, especially recently, play for him because there is little to no accountability and it’s just an easy way through. He hands them the keys and some players want it that way. Players like Briscoe want the easier coach they don’t want a guy like K and his system even though they’ll develop. Guys like that don’t believe they need a coach. Insert Calipari.
If they’re good enough to be studs he won’t hurt’m and they’ll get the run the show. If they’re not that great or overrated they’ll get nothing out of it. Like I said, there have been several guys transfer out and blow up, they weren’t doing that here.
Some suck anyway regardless
Some are too good to be Calipari’d
Some are better elsewhere in a real system
But none of these kids “need” Calipari. None of these players gain from him other than if they’re good enough he will give them the keys until the draft and NBA personnel see they can handle a team with little coaching and succeed. Then they have the measurables and intangibles and presto. Top pick. That’s the only thing I see Calipari good at. And this is the system he created and why he screams run and go and tells them to “make a play”. Most coaches care more but Calipari developed a recruiting factory strategy for NBA players. In his system development is not what it’s about. If you need to be coached Calipari is not the guy you play for. If you’re extremely good and can handle a team early, make plays on your own, and are younger then yes Calipari is a good choice.
He loses to some cupcake again this season and it’s over. Nobody is going to want to risk it. He ruined a lot of kids and if that chorus gets louder he’s done. Can’t coach for shit. Take away recruiting and he’s basically a podcaster.
You’re probably referring to me giving Cal credit for successful players. Let me first reiterate, it was time for Cal to leave. Cal lost the fan base and things were only going to get worse for all parties if he remained at UK. So, my statements are in no way a desire that he was still at UK.
However, putting emotion, fandom, lack of fandom, etc…to the side, I don’t see how anyone can logically blame Cal for specific players not meeting expectations while not giving him credit for other players exceeding or meeting expectations.
Here’s where we probably agree. One, Coaches get too much credit for player success (Davis and many others) and too much blame when high profile players don't meet high expectations (Livingston, Edwards, and others). Two, coaches never know how a player responds (regardless of their talent) to pressure. Some players thrive and other players wilt. I watched Sheppard in high school and thought he would be a 4 year role player at best. However, there was something about him that caused him to excel against better competition. Some of these players are hyped as future NBA players when they’re 15 and the feel the weight of the world on their shoulders coming to college. Throw in a couple subpar games and the pressure builds fast.
Here’s what NBA people liked about Cal. He never out-schemed anyone! (That’s not a knock against him. He was open about his philosophy.) “My guy is better than your guy and will beat you.” NBA scouts got to see what a player could and could not do. Sure, players should continue developing after getting to the league. However, Cal was about giving players freedom to showcase skills and get to the league.
That’s the reason I’m personally glad for the change. A team of four and five year college players, combined with a few excellent young players will beat very young teams regardless of the young talent. (Most the time!) I’m ready to see the combination of talent and scheme!
Looking back, Cal’s success rate of putting players in the league and those players succeeding in the league is VERY high. Rich Paul and others (fans) have very little logic to stand on if they’re trying to blame Cal for a player’s lack of success.
Again, I don’t think that philosophy can consistently win championships on the college level. I’m happy with the change!
I hope not. I hate to see guys fail. However, if he can't shoot and doesn't have a point guard who can create opportunities for him, it might be a tough season.
Cal compounded that problem by playing Livingston at the 3 with nonshooters at the 1 and 4.
Wheeler
Wallace
Livingston
Toppin
Oscar
It was a thing.
Yes it was a thing and it’s amazing that it was. Look at that lineup. It’s hard to imagine a coach as revolutionary as cal was at one time, putting that lineup together in any year past 2011. It looks like a Tubby roster from 2006 but worse, because Tubbs would have at least had a Meeks in there somewhere.
I still believe for whatever reason Calipari hates shooters. He just doesn’t think they matter in game where it’s all that matters lol. If it were football he’d prefer defensive cornerbacks in the wide out positions.
It seemed to be an achillies heel for us for many seasons. You'd have a year of maybe one or two but then some seasons of really no one that was reliable.
Cal reminds me of a lot of guys in leadership in different industries. Whatever they did is how it should always be done. Doesn't matter if the landscape/industry changed, you don't change. You see this a lot with like wealthy boomers who give advice to people of today but for an old world (Dave Ramsey's "Why pay for childcare? Take them to a free summer camp" type comes to mind).
His ego was his main issue. "I can't be wrong. Let's get another long athletic guy who can't shoot and fill the roster with them because the recruiting rankings say they're the best."
Know exactly what you mean. When I was younger I came out of high school during the recession of the mid 2,000’s. My dad wonders to this day why I just didn’t go to the post office and get a job as a mail carrier. Simple and easy, he said. It’ll be good for you he said. Meanwhile you couldn’t get a job as a furniture store jockey at that time lol. He still talks like that I just gave up.
They didn’t leave this generation much in general, certainly not better than they received it, and the generational family wealth from their grandparents many times over went to their lifestyles so, I feel like mine is having to resemble their parents generation more than theirs.
I’m off track
Cal did give Livingston opportunity at the 3 beyond what was due. He started almost twice as many games as Reeves.
Livingston was not a great player and still jumped to the draft. Did his agency push him out? Why did he not work on his game at all? All of basketball would benefit from the dismantling of AAU tbh
I could care less but for each his on I am sure we will continue to get 15 thousand threads on this clown and fraud man I am so glad we have a fresh start at Kentucky with THE POPE has reenergize my Fandom again with kentucky
The person accountable for Livingston is Livingston. He had 1 foot out the door the day he arrived. Thats no way to build your game.
Cal has plenty of faults, but NOT getting guys ready for the NBA isn't one of them. We could argue that point all day but both he and Coach K have #1 recruiting classes piled on top of each other. However Cal has more draft picks AND more success once they got in the league. If a kid doesn't make it, there were only 2 reasons why. 1) they just weren't good enough; 2) they didn't work hard enough.
Cal has plenty of faults, but NOT getting guys ready for the NBA isn't one of them. We could argue that point all day but both he and Coach K have #1 recruiting classes piled on top of each other. However Cal has more draft picks AND more success once they got in the league. If a kid doesn't make it, there were only 2 reasons why. 1) they just weren't good enough; 2) they didn't work hard enough.
I would think the guy that kept bringing in guys with one foot out the door and who built a culture of me first team second would be the bigger issue than just Livingston if we’re going to say it this way. And although we know the system has to work in some regard with the individual career in the driver seat all coaches try and temper that idea as much as possible to build continuity within the players and the team for the better of the program itself. Livingston, who had one foot out the door the entire time, decided to play for Calipari who openly encouraged selfishness. And he did this to create a recruiting advantage which played on greed and selfishness which made most of the “Chris Livingstons” want to play for him and avoid a real coach who demanded a player be held accountable to things bigger than his own self (or at least pretended to as much as possible. Calipari held up a sign to recruits that said selfish players play here and livingston went that route.
So while I agree Livingston did what you’re saying the real problem even then is Calipari. He’s doing it again this year with Knox, a guy who doesn’t want to be in college and has said so, so the cycle will repeat. I’m not a Livingston fan but even if we take the route you did here it’s still John Calipari that is the problem. Coach K worked to build team concepts while recruiting the OAD. Calipari did not. There’s a reason Pope is pounding this drum daily (program program program) to reverse a lot of the Calipari problems which have turned into a culture at UK and nowhere else among the basketball elites. It’s undeniably easy to see.
“Find our way back” - Mitch Barnhart. That was a scathing indictment of the Calipari era for the reason I’m suggesting. Livingston didn’t do anything that wasn’t encouraged or signed off on by his own head coach in one form or another. In speaking with many at Rupp Arena on the floor of the press conference it was undeniable that many people were afraid for the program because of this kind of stuff. Undeniable. And it’s why Pope and Barnhart spent much of the time telling everyone they were going to correct it.
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The only part on Livingston was that he chose a program that his skills did not fit into very well. Livingston is a very good player, but he was not used very well at Kentucky.
Naw, its the "needed more time" thing Nerlens. My nephew helped coach him at Oak Hill and I got to visit myself and Chis is a great kid, very intellegent, hard worker etc. He's just one of those that had a lot of athletic gifts and more skills than he showed at UK, just couldnt find his comfort zone to show it. And he and Cal just couldnt get on the same page from day one. Not all Cal's fault, think Cal was trying to let him play where Chris wanted and Chris wasnt ready for the 3 and at the time was more suited for minutes a the 4 spot. Just a jumble of things that was a bad fit.
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