POLITICAL THREAD

[Atrain7732]

Stipulated: Trump is a disgusting narcissistic blowhard. I just hope that there are policies in place to keep his finger off the nuke button if he flies off the handle.

But I will vote for him anyhow. Because ...

1 I do not want Hillary (or any other Dem) appointing SC justices. They are the de facto law of the land and we could end up with an overwhelmingly liberal SC whose influence will last for generations.

2 Hillary will let the illegal Latinos stay and continue coming in droves, driving wages further down for our lower classes of workers. But worse, she will bring in to our country hundreds of thousands of Muslims who hate our culture and freedoms (but love our welfare system), among whom will be a sizable number willing to kill innocent infidels for Allah.

3 See Angela Merkel of Germany, Hillary's role model.

You have an excellent point regarding the appointment of SCJ. That is the biggest thing I have wrangled with in making my decision this election. I am a proud member of the NRA, have had my conceal-carry license for over 5 years, and truly appreciate the unique american right to bear arms.

I have heard so much back and forth that I honestly do not know where each side sits here. I know that, if remembering correctly, Scalia was the decisive vote on "Heller". Which might mean if he is replaced that ruling could be altered, or changed down the road.

However, from what I can tell, it seems that mostly what the left is proposing is to expand the back ground checks, which I have zero issue with. It is a legit point, tho. And one that I still wrestle with quite often. I just cant believe that it would be possible to take any law-abiding citizens guns away. Even when the assault rifle law was passed, I think under Bill, anyone who had purchased one legally before then was grandfathered in.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

Is it the Clinton campaign position that Clinton should get praise for getting our troops out of Iraq, but the vacuum that led to ISIS was George Bush's fault for negotiating the agreement to leave Iraq?

Or did I misunderstand what Kaine was saying last night?

Noticed that as well...

 

[Mojocat]

The pining for Kasich makes me think of this:

"Goldwater was Hitler. Nixon was Hitler. Reagan was Hitler. Bush was Hitler. None of the latter three men declared the Fourth Reich, made themselves dictators for life and ran concentration camps. But the Big Lie retroactively rewrites the past by claiming that last decade’s Hitler was a decent moderate while the latest Republican Hitler is a terrifying monster. Goldwater, Nixon and Reagan were all resurrected as moderate contrasts to each other and then to Bush. The process of recreating Bush as a moderate has already begun. And so each Republican makes the electoral journey from Hitler to a political moderate whom a latter generation of liberals mourns while complaining that this latest Republican really is Hitler."

Same concept, different context. "Now that guy, that's a guy I could have supported, you should have nominated him!"

 

[jameslee32]

Seeing there was never more than 90 seconds of discussion on anything during the debate, nothing was talked about in detail.

It is also true that most economist say that his "plan" will result in an additional $5T in debt.
Over 50% of wage earners today pay zero or less than zero in federal taxes. Continuing to cut taxes is not a path to prosperity. How many roads must crumble, bridges must fail before people understand that we have to maintain our infrastructure?
The tax code has been largely unchanged since 1984 when the "Trickle Down" supporters controlled things and we started on this path. Over 30+ years it has only resulted in growth at the top, a shrinking in the middle and a explosion of people at the bottom.

A race to the bottom. Now the GOP whore is crying about income inequality. Irony.

 

[Supreme Lord Z]

Belatedly, I would like to thank all the right wing rubes that sat up all night last night waiting for Assange to save them. Every single time you get played for absolute fools is a priceless treasure to me. Trump, a liberal to his very core, is on the most extended con of all time because he watched Sarah Palin play you for fools and decided he'd like to play too, then Assange stepped up and took his turn plowing you idiots last night.

Best of all... the very best of all... is that you never ever learn. You are programmed at the DNA level to be idiots of the highest order. That's why the Michelle Bachmans and Hermain Cain's of the world flock to your fertile shores. To reap and harvest idiots as they are bountiful thickly in the Republican Party.

So "thank you" and I mean that sincerely. I cannot possibly convey what a joy, an absolute joy, it is in my life to see you fall flat on your faces then get up and not even know where it came from. You are one of the great passions of my life.

 

[Bill Derington]

I agree with most of what you are saying. I am staunchly against the TPP. It scares me that HRC was so pro-TPP until she saaw her numbers affected. I think DT may be right--she may try and push it thru if elected.

Slightly off topic, however, I heard on the news this week that there is some fairly optimistic news regarding manufacturing in some segments. And this is politically neutral IMO. But, it seems that the wages in China and some other popular manufacturing sites for cheap labor, are not so cheap anymore. When you take the incentive of cheap labor away, many US companies may decide to stay. I think there should be incentives to try and keep these companies here. Do not try to punish them. Incentivize it.

I agree that cheap labor is the driving force, but also environmental regs.
It also not a surprise that right before the election where labor is the primary topic the Govt releases data showing labor is improving in the US.
I agree we should incentivize them, but that alone won't do it. The ones here aren't the problem, it's the ones already gone.
At this point the US has leverage still, another 20 years and that may not be.

 

[qwesley]

Which is exactly what the Rep Party said after the 2012 beat down. Instead of moving forward in a moderate way, this is how a big portion of the party has decided to go.

Romney and McCain were not moderates?

 

[jameslee32]

Is it the Clinton campaign position that Clinton should get praise for getting our troops out of Iraq, but the vacuum that led to ISIS was George Bush's fault for negotiating the agreement to leave Iraq?

Or did I misunderstand what Kaine was saying last night?

Bottom-line, they wanted us gone. They said this to Bush and Obama.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I have heard so much back and forth that I honestly do not know where each side sits here. I know that, if remembering correctly, Scalia was the decisive vote on "Heller". Which might mean if he is replaced that ruling could be altered, or changed down the road.

If you don't know where each side sits on 2nd amendment to issues, you've just not been paying attention.

 

[Bill Derington]

We don't have an armed forces agreement now with Iraq, yet we're putting troops there.

The point is Obama didn't want one in 2011, if he had gotten involved we could've gotten one.
He wanted the troops out by the election, he used that as an excuse , ignoring the military on the ground there.

 

[Supreme Lord Z]

Trump said he agreed with Hillary on the 2nd amendment when it was raised in the debate. One of the multiple times he's let his inner liberal show.

 

[Atrain7732]

I agree that cheap labor is the driving force, but also environmental regs.
It also not a surprise that right before the election where labor is the primary topic the Govt releases data showing labor is improving in the US.
I agree we should incentivize them, but that alone won't do it. The ones here aren't the problem, it's the ones already gone.
At this point the US has leverage still, another 20 years and that may not be.

Agree completely with everything you said. We cannot get back to how things were in the 50's-70's, but there can be a "renaissance" of manufacturing & technological jobs in the US given the right conditions, I believe.

Those conditions do need to certainly include provisions and incentives to insure that it is affordable to run a business in this country. We don't have to have sweat shop labor, the US has so many other benefits it simply has to not de-centivize business. There can be reasonable regulation on environment without stifling business and competition. Both sides just have to work together instead of blaming each other IMO.

 

[Bill Derington]

Agree completely with everything you said. We cannot get back to how things were in the 50's-70's, but there can be a "renaissance" of manufacturing & technological jobs in the US given the right conditions, I believe.

Those conditions do need to certainly include provisions and incentives to insure that it is affordable to run a business in this country. We don't have to have sweat shop labor, the US has so many other benefits it simply has to not de-centivize business. There can be reasonable regulation on environment without stifling business and competition. Both sides just have to work together instead of blaming each other IMO.

Problem is the politicians have too much money coming in from people and companies that like it the way it is.
Neither career republican or Dems are going to do anything more than lip service to get past an election. That's the main reason I'm voting Trump, he may not do a dang thing about it, but he isn't in bed with lobbyists. We both know Hillary won't change something her husband put in place, and she was all in on TPP before the election cycle.

 

[Atrain7732]

Romney and McCain were not moderates?

Well, clearly, not enough. Unless I missed something and they actually won. I mean, does the Rep Party want someone who can actually win, or just a loud & boisterous figurehead? Serious question, cause I am not sure myself.

People who are WAAAAAY more conservative and card carrying Rep than you, or I, or "The Donald", found in their post-election "autopsy" that, if the Rep ever want to win again, they have to reach out to other minority groups, namely the Latinos.

What this guy has done is the opposite. He has isolated ALL minority groups far as I can tell. That is the point of many people who feel like I do. He has went backwards. You don't have to cater to everyone's views. But, you also should not put anyone in a position where they feel they have to vote against you based on their race, either.

 

[Rex Kwon Do]

We don't have an armed forces agreement now with Iraq, yet we're putting troops there.

The point is Obama didn't want one in 2011, if he had gotten involved we could've gotten one.
He wanted the troops out by the election, he used that as an excuse , ignoring the military on the ground there.

^ Irrefutable.

Lol no boots on the ground. Except the boots on the ground. I bet the boots enjoy being discounted.

 

[Willy4UK]

Is it the Clinton campaign position that Clinton should get praise for getting our troops out of Iraq, but the vacuum that led to ISIS was George Bush's fault for negotiating the agreement to leave Iraq?

Or did I misunderstand what Kaine was saying last night?

That goddamn lying ass coont did nothing for troop removal. George MF'N BUSH SIGNED THE GODDAMN ORDERS FOR REMOVAL BEFORE OBAMA EVEN CAME INTO OFFICE

I hope that bitch drops dead. I will forever acknowledge her as "the bitch or that bitch".

 

[WettCat]

Don''t think for one second that Bill's comments on Obamacare were just the result of him going off script. Everything--everything that is said and positioned these days is scripted and with a purpose.

Why would he have done it? Who knows, but it was done with their "team's" approval and intentionally.

 

[qwesley]

Well, clearly, not enough. Unless I missed something and they actually won. I mean, does the Rep Party want someone who can actually win, or just a loud & boisterous figurehead? Serious question, cause I am not sure myself.

I just read a lot of lectures/advice on the GOP needing to go more moderate and even when they do it doesn't work. Like myself and several have been saying...the media is going to kill whatever candidate is put out there, a full year of destruction. Which is why the GOPs success at the state and congressional levels have not been matched in POTUS elections. No single person can withstand that rigged coordinated system, much less someone as very flawed as Trump.

 

[KyFaninNC]

Was the moderator better or worse than Holt? I did not watch

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Was the moderator better or worse than Holt? I did not watch

Apparently worse, if that's imaginable

 

[moe_schmoe]

However, from what I can tell, it seems that mostly what the left is proposing is to expand the back ground checks, which I have zero issue with.

No, that's just their starting point. After that passes, every gun crime from there on out will bring up the debate of if what they've done is working & if they should go further with gun control. Before you know it, with the right people in place, your 2A has been abolished.

Our rights are non negotiable. If you allow the government to renegotiate & infringe on them, they'll eventually come for more.

 

[warrior-cat]

Stipulated: Trump is a disgusting narcissistic blowhard. I just hope that there are policies in place to keep his finger off the nuke button if he flies off the handle.

But I will vote for him anyhow. Because ...

1 I do not want Hillary (or any other Dem) appointing SC justices. They are the de facto law of the land and we could end up with an overwhelmingly liberal SC whose influence will last for generations.

2 Hillary will let the illegal Latinos stay and continue coming in droves, driving wages further down for our lower classes of workers. But worse, she will bring in to our country hundreds of thousands of Muslims who hate our culture and freedoms (but love our welfare system), among whom will be a sizable number willing to kill innocent infidels for Allah.

3 See Angela Merkel of Germany, Hillary's role model.

There are all kinds of safeguards in place to prevent any president from being able to launch nukes just on their own decision. This uninformed line of thinking is just ridiculous.

 

[qwesley]

Was the moderator better or worse than Holt? I did not watch

more doable than Lester per pics

 

[warrior-cat]

^^ LOL, yeah Trump supporters getting beat up. Meanwhile, those Trump supporters are killing Muslims. DT has incited his followers to beat up protestors and journalists. Threaten people at the polls. I love the coverup angle because it doesn't require any proof. The right loves not having to show proof of their conspiracies. They also love limiting Americans right to vote.

I'm betting those for and against TPP know very little about it other than talking points. Just like they believe we can sprinkle some magic dust and bring back manufacturing jobs that are no longer there. Manufacturing productivity has doubled since the 90s with millions of jobs lost. We cannot and will never be able to compete with sweatshop jobs. Those are gone. Automation and robotics are replacing workers by the thousands and will be in the millions by the middle of the next decade. No politician wants to level with the low skill worker and tell them their jobs aren't coming back. Instead of offering some pie in the sky rainbows and ice cream utopia they need to level with them and figure out a way to transition them into other fields like clean energy. Oh wait, they mock clean energy even though it employs more people than the coal industry and nearly as much as the oil & gas industry.

Conservatives live in an alternate reality where they believe they can somehow turn back time to the 80s or the 50s, when America was 'strong'. Good luck convincing the rest of the world to do that or somehow get people to be as productive as a robot.

You've got a population of Americans under siege from the very people who are supposed to protect them for decades now. Yet you're more worried about a 6 year old Syrian refugee blowing you up or outraged because a baker can't discriminate against another American.

If those terrorists were setting off bombs in the ghetto you wouldn't blink an eye. Just as DT thinks more cops ready to kill and violate American's civil rights is the way to go. Not more oversight, training, rules of engagement. Nope, just more warm bodies with no respect for the rights of others.

Proof of the Trumps supporters killing muslims please.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I just read a lot of lectures/advice on the GOP needing to go more moderate and even when they do it doesn't work. Like myself and several have been saying...the media is going to kill whatever candidate is put out there, a full year of destruction. Which is why the GOPs success at the state and congressional levels have not been matched in POTUS elections. No single person can withstand that rigged coordinated system, much less someone as very flawed as Trump.

Totally true. I thought one big advantage trump had was he hadn't been positioning himself for elections his whole life. Those guys put on the heir of perfection yet have tons of skeletons that inevitably come out that crush them.

Whereas Trump led a very public life with so many skeletons out of the closet. When you think about it, the big surprises were an old tax return and the revelation he'd called a woman fat. Both over 20 years old, and neither even close to relevant. They were just mega hyped thanks to hillarys media pals. Combine that with the recent "I'm offended" movement; and it had some impact.

 

[Atrain7732]

I just read a lot of lectures/advice on the GOP needing to go more moderate and even when they do it doesn't work. Like myself and several have been saying...the media is going to kill whatever candidate is put out there, a full year of destruction. Which is why the GOPs success at the state and congressional levels have not been matched in POTUS elections. No single person can withstand that rigged coordinated system, much less someone as very flawed as Trump.

Fair enough. Wasn't trying to lecture or antagonize. Just things I honestly have thought about this year. Can't argue either with the moderate comment. However, I do think that the only way for a Rep to win another major election, given the current and future demographics of the US, is to reach out to other minority groups.

In essence, to become more moderate, at least in some ways. Core principals can still be core principals. The Conservative agenda could be very appealing to minorities IMO--principals of hard work, less government oversight, less taxation & money out of working man's pockets are all very positive aspects. But, when you have to lose the general to win the nomination and you employ explosive over the top rhetoric to do so, I think you have already lost that demographic. JMHO, of course.

 

[warrior-cat]

Well, clearly, not enough. Unless I missed something and they actually won. I mean, does the Rep Party want someone who can actually win, or just a loud & boisterous figurehead? Serious question, cause I am not sure myself.

People who are WAAAAAY more conservative and card carrying Rep than you, or I, or "The Donald", found in their post-election "autopsy" that, if the Rep ever want to win again, they have to reach out to other minority groups, namely the Latinos.

What this guy has done is the opposite. He has isolated ALL minority groups far as I can tell. That is the point of many people who feel like I do. He has went backwards. You don't have to cater to everyone's views. But, you also should not put anyone in a position where they feel they have to vote against you based on their race, either.

Just because they lost does not make them any less moderate. They had an R by their names and that is all most on the left care about. Most Dem voters really have no clue as to what the issues are.

 

[Atrain7732]

No, that's just their starting point. After that passes, every gun crime from there on out will bring up the debate of if what they've done is working & if they should go further with gun control. Before you know it, with the right people in place, your 2A has been abolished.

Our rights are non negotiable. If you allow the government to renegotiate & infringe on them, they'll eventually come for more.

Can't really disagree with anything you said. As I said earlier, this is one of the toughest factors for me in this election. And one I grapple with regularly. The slippery slope argument is a sound and well reasoned argument. When big brother starts to take, they tend to keep taking. All very legit points that I certainly take into consideration.

 

[qwesley]

No doubt, and very much on purpose, the extreme pandering to Hispanics by the Dems have put the GOP in a bind. Their clear stance, ignore the "common sense reform" bullshit, is to allow widespread immigration with a a pathway to citizenship that will undoubtedly over time become very short and simple. Their greed for another powerful voting bloc is obvious. For a long time the GOP went along and did not want to risk alienating them, then it became obvious that they were opening the door to something very bad for them. Dems going around bragging about turning Texas and Florida blue with hispanics was the final straw.

 

[Atrain7732]

Just because they lost does not make them any less moderate. They had an R by their names and that is all most on the left care about. Most Dem voters really have no clue as to what the issues are.

Well, based on the Rep Party's own statements after losing the last election, it is exactly the position that they came to as well. It is not just me making this up. It is all there for the world to see. Inclusion was considered the major reason why they lost. It was decided that major outreach to minority neighborhoods was needed, especially Latino neighborhoods. Its also pretty clear to me that the opposite actually happened. Which is why I think they will lose again this cycle.

I am not a Dem voter. But, if you would like to question my knowledge of the issues, go right ahead. I am no expert on them, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp overall. I am also unsure that knowledge of the issues is a "D" or a "R" thing. Seems a major chunk of the population doesn't know shit from shinola, especially related to politics. That is a bigger societal problem IMO, not a Rep or Dem one.

 

[ukalumni00]

No doubt, and very much on purpose, the extreme pandering to Hispanics by the Dems have put the GOP in a bind. Their clear stance, ignore the "common sense reform" bullshit, is to allow widespread immigration with a a pathway to citizenship that will undoubtedly over time become very short and simple. Their greed for another powerful voting bloc is obvious. For a long time the GOP went along and did not want to risk alienating them, then it became obvious that they were opening the door to something very bad for them. Dems going around bragging about turning Texas and Florida blue with hispanics was the final straw.

A lot of Republicans wanted the cheap labor for their donors. When they started to lose the votes then it became a problem.

Dems want them here for their votes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Point being both parties had/has something to gain by allowing illegal Hispanics into this country.

Trump is the first legitimate POTUS candidate to really go after illegal immigration and take a mountain of flack for it. Dems are scared to death because if he wins they see lost votes. Republicans who have abused the cheap labor forever now see Trump as a major threat. If people think Dems feel so much compassion towards these people think again. Most politicians in Washington think about themselves and their donors. That is it. A vote for Hillary is just another vote for the corrupt system. A vote for Trump may end up being wasted as well, but at this point I am willing to try something different and hope for the best.

 

[warrior-cat]

,

Well, based on the Rep Party's own statements after losing the last election, it is exactly the position that they came to as well. It is not just me making this up. It is all there for the world to see. Inclusion was considered the major reason why they lost. It was decided that major outreach to minority neighborhoods was needed, especially Latino neighborhoods. Its also pretty clear to me that the opposite actually happened. Which is why I think they will lose again this cycle.

I am not a Dem voter. But, if you would like to question my knowledge of the issues, go right ahead. I am no expert on them, but I feel I have a pretty good grasp overall. I am also unsure that knowledge of the issues is a "D" or a "R" thing. Seems a major chunk of the population doesn't know shit from shinola, especially related to politics. That is a bigger societal problem IMO, not a Rep or Dem one.

In bold is still the reason why I said that those 2 were moderates. Just because others do not understand the issues, does not make them any less moderate. The lack of understanding is the voters fault.

 

[moe_schmoe]

Can't really disagree with anything you said. As I said earlier, this is one of the toughest factors for me in this election. And one I grapple with regularly. The slippery slope argument is a sound and well reasoned argument. When big brother starts to take, they tend to keep taking. All very legit points that I certainly take into consideration.

This is an example of why I fail to understand all of these self labeled progressives (not accusing you, generally speaking).

The only things they truly care about making any progress at all are their ideologies. They couldn't care less about society progressing as a whole.

Seriously, what are we really progressing towards? More government, less freedom? Last I checked, that's actually going backwards.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

But, when you have to lose the general to win the nomination and you employ explosive over the top rhetoric to do so, I think you have already lost that demographic. JMHO, of course.

If Trump loses, the main positive out of this election for three GOP is candidates now see its possible to win the nomination without pandering far right.

Of course the msm helps the dems here too. Dems do the same, but never get held to task. Hillary has been all over the place, but it's never brought up.

Most Dem voters really have no clue as to what the issues are.

And they don't care. It's cool to vote dem, they hear. So they do.

The only things they truly care about making any progress at all are their ideologies. They couldn't care less about society progressing as a whole.

They don't even care about that. They just care about votes.

 

[Atrain7732]

A lot of Republicans wanted the cheap labor for their donors. When they started to lose the votes then it became a problem.

Dems want them here for their votes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Point being both parties had/has something to gain by allowing illegal Hispanics into this country.

Trump is the first legitimate POTUS candidate to really go after illegal immigration and take a mountain of flack for it. Dems are scared to death because if he wins they see lost votes. Republicans who have abused the cheap labor forever now see Trump as a major threat. If people think Dems feel so much compassion towards these people think again. Most politicians in Washington think about themselves and their donors. That is it. A vote for Hillary is just another vote for the corrupt system. A vote for Trump may end up being wasted as well, but at this point I am willing to try something different and hope for the best.

I agree with everything stated here, save for one thing:

I cannot bring myself to vote for Trump. Just because he is going to blow up the system is not good enough for me. I would rather cast a vote for the corrupt system that I know, than to cast a vote for what may, or very well may not, be an even more corrupt system of a Trump presidency. That is the stumbling block on which I keep falling. And I have pretty much given up trying at this point. It is my personal feeling and I cant get over it.

So, I honestly hope either way this whole thing turns out, that America is ultimately a better, more safe and much more economically successful place than it has been. Hopefully everyone will come out ahead in the end. Nothing makes people forget politics like a robust and booming economy. If Trump wins and comes in and turns this ship around, I will give him all the credit in the world. Even if he doesn't, I will support him as our President. I hope all others follow suit.

 

[Catfan in Tn.]

Cardkilla, like all Hillary supporters, once again holding Trump to a higher standard then they would ever hold there own candidate.

 

[Bill Derington]

We know Hillary is corrupt. we know the Clintons are, we know through leaks the media has been in their pocket from word go.
We know she met people based on donations to the Clinton foundation, we know the Clinton foundation took 450 mill from Russia days after the state dept approved a Uranium deal.
We know she lied about the cause of Benghazi, we know she circumvented cybersecurity rules to cover her rear.
Those are all things she did as a public servant, in your honest opinion does that warrant her being president?

How do you think Russia, China, Iran will see her being elected?
Hell, ISIS will use it as a recruiting tool, and we know how Muslims in general view women.

 

[Mashburned]

And they don't care. It's cool to vote dem, they hear. So they do.

It's as simple as that.

R's will either learn marketing or they will just patiently wait for the D's to fall apart...which will probably happen after Hillary's 8 years, imho.

 

[moe_schmoe]

They don't even care about that. They just care about votes.

True, but I was talking about the sjw's that vote for them. They'd rather have their ideologies make progress, like the government stepping in & banning mean words, than for the entire country to progress by having less government.

 

[Mashburned]

So, I honestly hope either way this whole thing turns out, that America is ultimately a better, more safe and much more economically successful place than it has been. Hopefully everyone will come out ahead in the end. Nothing makes people forget politics like a robust and booming economy. If Trump wins and comes in and turns this ship around, I will give him all the credit in the world. Even if he doesn't, I will support him as our President. I hope all others follow suit.

That's the gayest shit I've read this week.