POLITICAL THREAD

[BeaveUKGT]

Stop the pontificating and make a point or stop posting.

OK, I'll make two points:

1. You don't own this website, and you don't get to tell me what I can't or can't do here.

2. We (the U.S.) have a system that is a mixture of capitalism and socialism right now. It's a false dichotomy to argue that our system is (or soon could be) exclusively one or the other, and it only serves to divide us.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

Lucky you. Depends on what you did with that degree. Regardless if you are successful or not I am sure you were surrounded by a bunch of scrubs slowing the learning and creating grade curves. Public schools are required to cater to the lowest common denominator because the government is involved.

Socialism is no different.

There were lots of scrubs in my school, but we didn't take the same classes. They were in general science while I was taking physics and AP chem. They were taking shop while I was taking AP calculus (not that there's anything wrong with shop - I wish I had some of those skills).

We didn't have grade curves in grade school or high school. The biggest curves, by far, were in my physics classes in college.

You really must have gone to a sh!tty school.

 

[TheFrontRunner]

This isn't real life anymore...

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

What about bridges?

And rail lines?

And airports?

Police?

Fire departments?

Govt in charge of the car business to use those bridges? Pretty sure capitalism gives people the freedom to buy the cars

Govt in charge of the goods sold for profit on the rail lines? Pretty sure capitalism is what makes the need for rail lines

govt paying my airfare? Pretty sure capitalism gives me the luxury of flying first class or economy.

Police and fire dept. I agree. Only because Democrats are criminals and arsonists

 

[ymmot31]

Well I pissed in a bush around the corner after a game one time. How red is my neck?

Thanks pal. Now we'll have to deal with the Urinovirus. Dick move.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

Govt in charge of the car business to use those bridges? Pretty sure capitalism gives people the freedom to buy the cars

Govt in charge of the goods sold for profit on the rail lines? Pretty sure capitalism is what makes the need for rail lines

govt paying my airfare? Pretty sure capitalism gives me the luxury of flying first class or economy.

Police and fire dept. I agree. Only because Democrats are criminals and arsonists

People in countries more socialist than the US don't get to buy cars? Better tell that to Canada, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc.

People in countries more socialist than the US don't have a need for rail lines? Again, better tell that to most of Europe.

People in countries more socialist than the US don't have airlines? How do so many Americans get to visit Europe?

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

We have what’s called mixed market economy, there’s nothing new there.

Most of the things the government does do are things people complain about: like public education and whether or not social security will be around (hint it won’t) or standing in line at the dmv.

you are asking for more of that. People in Europe complain about those things too, cause you guessed it they are even worse there but they then complain the politicians are corrupt or they aren’t funding programs enough. Then when the government is doing all that extra stuff plus shit you haven’t even thought of like providing you electricity or cell phone service, everyone is in some form or another directly or indirectly working for or dependent on the government so they have to vote social democrat for their own self interest.

It’s the long con, this radical left nonsense you don’t grasp what you are asking for and what you’ll get in the slow drip of eroding freedoms.

these people want power and control, take it from people with wealth because theyjeoulous and greedy under the guise they are helping you... they only ever are in it for themselves

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

People in countries more socialist than the US don't get to buy cars? Better tell that to Canada, Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, etc.

People in countries more socialist than the US don't have a need for rail lines? Again, better tell that to most of Europe.

People in countries more socialist than the US don't have airlines? How do so many Americans get to visit Europe?

they pay much higher prices for those things on lower wages and higher income taxes

 

[BeaveUKGT]

they pay much higher prices for those things on lower wages and higher income taxes

True. Then again, they don't have to worry as much as we do about medical bills or the cost of educating our children (should we have children and should they go to college).

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

It doesn’t add up to any kind of savings like lying Bernie want to make you believe.

you can take matters into your own hands there and come out way ahead of what the government could do for you, which is the American way.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

How do I take matters into my own hands to reduce my medical bills?

I have private insurance - and it sucks royally. I complain about it non-stop - you know, just like you were saying people complain about government institutions.

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

You get healthy, and fund an HSA.

That’s another thing, Europeans are far slimmer and don’t eat as poorly as we do... so the cost of us funding poor health habits is exponentially higher than their’s.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

You get healthy, and fund an HSA.

That’s another thing, Europeans are far slimmer and don’t eat as poorly as we do... so the cost of us funding poor health habits is exponentially higher than their’s.

Yeah, I need to get healthy and lose some weight. I'm at my all time high weight right now - about 152 pounds at 5'11".

What should be my goal? 140? 130?

Any chance Europeans are healthier because they eat better because their governments don't subsidize certain "big farma" items that allow a cheeseburger at McDonald's to cost less than an apple?

 

[BlueThruAndThru]

I once beat cancer by doing 100 push ups.

 

[kybloo92]

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

Whose solutions? If you were in science courses that graded on a curve you should be able to reason this out with me.

I’m speaking in general not personal terms.

Europeans eat healthier for purely cultural reasons.

We don’t also for cultural reasons, but if you really want to blame the government you can find reason to blame anything on them, which incidentally is another self defeating problem with the left’s march further and further left.

The American dream is still available to most anyone, enjoy it while you can...

 

[kybloo92]

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

I once beat cancer by doing 100 push ups.

this is the only person socialized medicine does better for, say some unlucky guy has no family gets cancer diagnosed at 20.

Outside of the extreme cases, which we should figure out better ways to care for, everyone else is far better with our medical system which is actually demonstrably far superior to Europe

 

[Bigblue2023]

Tell us more about capatism before you tell me to do some more research.

I'm not sure what capatism is...

In all seriousness, I asked a question that you've refused to answer. So a legitimate back and forth conversation cant take place. I wont participate in a typical liberal conversation where you dont actually have to explain your position, but instead just try to flip everything on me.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

Whose solutions? If you were in science courses that graded on a curve you should be able to reason this out with me.

I’m speaking in general not personal terms.

Europeans eat healthier for purely cultural reasons.

We don’t also for cultural reasons, but if you really want to blame the government you can find reason to blame anything on them, which incidentally is another self defeating problem with the left’s march further and further left.

The American dream is still available to most anyone, enjoy it while you can...

The culture and the government go hand-in-hand. Just like culture is closely tied to religion.

I agree that Europeans eat healthier than Americans, on average. I don't eat like a typical American.

You can't blame "cultural reasons" alone without also considering the money underlying it all. Poor people in the US can afford McDonald's more easily than they can afford fresh fruits and vegetables.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

I'm not sure what capatism is...

In all seriousness, I asked a question that you've refused to answer. So a legitimate back and forth conversation cant take place. I wont participate in a typical liberal conversation where you dont actually have to explain your position, but instead just try to flip everything on me.

OK, fine, don't participate.

"...a typical liberal conversation..."

 

[BeaveUKGT]

this is the only person socialized medicine does better for, say some unlucky guy has no family gets cancer diagnosed at 20.

Add up all the unlucky people with cancer, autoimmune diseases, psychiatric illnesses, etc, and you're talking about millions of Americans.

Outside of the extreme cases, which we should figure out better ways to care for, everyone else is far better with our medical system which is actually demonstrably far superior to Europe

Then it should be easy for you to demonstrate said superiority with facts, figures, data.

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

You made the claim I wasn’t posting anything of value...that’s clearly not the case.

It’s cultural, anyone fully familiar with the cultures would attest to that reality.

you are marketed to ad nauseum to sell you an unhealthy lifestyle, can blame a slew of bad actors as there’s money sloshing around everywhere...what that does really is it creates an environment where you should be able to take responsibility for your own life and well being (again outside of extreme cases). What has happened here is over inflation of costs in health, edu etc and the left want to address the symptom without any regard for the cause.

I’ve actually been in European hospitals; it’s only a selective misinterpretation of the data that makes you believe our system isn’t superior. It’s not a discussion of specifics I care to get into but have before, the data are a clear superiority of facts indeed.

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

Add up all the unlucky people with cancer, autoimmune diseases, psychiatric illnesses, etc, and you're talking about millions of Americans.

do you care about those people, or do you care about yourself?

I care about those people so I want the best medical infrastructure in the world to take care of them. That only happens in for profit environment.

I want a child with cancer to be able to go to St. Judes, not wait and see what the National American Health Serice could do for her.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

You made the claim I wasn’t posting anything of value...that’s clearly not the case.

You think quite highly of yourself. That much is obvious.

you are marketed to ad nauseum to sell you an unhealthy lifestyle, can blame a slew of bad actors as there’s money sloshing around everywhere...what that does really is it creates an environment where you should be able to take responsibility for your own life and well being (again outside of extreme cases). What has happened here is over inflation of costs in health, edu etc and the left want to address the symptom without any regard for the cause.

How does "the right" want to address the cause? I don't see them pushing for healthy eating? They're all about freedom of choice and capitalism, right?

I’ve actually been in European hospitals; it’s only a selective misinterpretation of the data that makes you believe our system isn’t superior. It’s not a discussion of specifics I care to get into but have before, the data are a clear superiority of facts indeed.

Ah, so you're an expert because you've been in European hospitals, and we should just take your word for it. Got it.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

do you care about those people, or do you care about yourself?

I care about those people so I want the best medical infrastructure in the world to take care of them. That only happens in for profit environment.

I want a child with cancer to be able to go to St. Judes, not wait and see what the National American Health Serice could do for her.

What it they can't afford the best medical infrastructure to take care of them?

 

[Bigblue2023]

You think quite highly of yourself. That much is obvious.



How does "the right" want to address the cause? I don't see them pushing for healthy eating? They're all about freedom of choice and capitalism, right?



Ah, so you're an expert because you've been in European hospitals, and we should just take your word for it. Got it.

All I see you doing is putting down other people's thoughts and ideas. Do you have any of your own? You wont even admit what you are, but you're quick to slam others. Let's hear your amazing ideas on how to fix things and see if those ideas hold up.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

All I see you doing is putting down other people's thoughts and ideas. Do you have any of your own? You wont even admit what you are, but you're quick to slam others. Let's hear your amazing ideas on how to fix things and see if those ideas hold up.

Admit what I am? See, there's the problem right there. You want a simple label you can slap on people.

Here's your label: I'm an American, that's what I am.

I lean liberal on some things, conservative on some things. I hate Ds and Rs and the two party system we have. I'm registered independent.

I don't have easy solutions to complicated problems. But I know that just saying "socialism = bad" is just as simple-minded as saying "capitalism = bad."

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

You think quite highly of yourself. That much is obvious.

I can't control how you interpret what I type... nor do I care... but let's be real here, you were typing how much smarter you were than some guy cause you took a science class with tests graded on a curve. Then I typed I only make substantive posts and there is not something you can post here about socialism that I won't be able to refute because I have thought out the flaws in that philosophy before. It's error ridden and rotten to it's core.

But I can guarantee you that I don't think as much of myself in the sense that you mean here as you do of yourself.

How does "the right" want to address the cause? I don't see them pushing for healthy eating? They're all about freedom of choice and capitalism, right?

I don't care what they want to do, so long as it's not antithetical to fundamental American values like socialism is.
Eat right and take care of yourself is my solution. Have the freedom and education to make the right decision for yourself.

Fund a health savings account, might be 3-500k $ worth by the time you need to use it.

Ah, so you're an expert because you've been in European hospitals, and we should just take your word for it. Got it.

There is something to be said for direct experience, and the sort of ignorance it takes to flippantly disregard it because it doesn't suit your cognitive biases.

What it they can't afford the best medical infrastructure to take care of them?

Then we need to find some way to do the work pro bono... pin prick solutions, not blanket.

The solution cannot be to make our health system worse for everyone, which is what is essentially being proposed here.

But I know that just saying "socialism = bad" is just as simple-minded as saying "capitalism = bad."

Socialism is bad intrinsically... read more on its origins, history and psychology. It's not something we should be discussing seriously in America.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

Where can I find a job with such great benefits that my HSA would be/could be worth 3-500k by the time I'd need to use it?

And since I needed to use it starting around age 32, well.....again, where can I get such a job? What field is it in?

Since socialism is intrinsically bad, do you work hard to eradicate America of the wholly un-American public education system?

Oh, and pin prick solutions for millions of people who can't afford proper health care is a whole lotta pin pricks.

 

[SomeDudeCRO]

3-500k is what the math comes out to after lifetime of max contributions, compounding interest tax favored... and it's for the everyone else who would/could/should avoid lifestyle illnesses and their high costs, which place a huge unnecessary strain on the system as is.

public schools, public goods is an example of mixed market, not socialism as I stated before. they are taking advantage of your (impersonal) economic ignorance (not me thinking highly of myself, just the facts) to try to trojan horse bad ideas.

So basically, you are sick and the current system doesn't serve you well enough, leaving you embittered. Well, I'm sorry to say socialized medicine just takes your problem and gives it to more people, that's what it does in Europe and is the inevitable result when demand rises but supply stays the same. Which is one of my main points, namely decreasing demand, you never see talked about because it's not something people want to hear.

It's far easier to see the problems than to think through and propose working solutions, which socialism ain't. They are selling you a dream you'll never see realized, and if by somehow this country did, you'll eventually wish it hadn't. The argument is same as it ever was, the outcomes would be no different.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

3-500k is what the math comes out to after lifetime of max contributions, compounding interest tax favored... and it's for the everyone else who would/could/should avoid lifestyle illnesses and their high costs, which place a huge unnecessary strain on the system as is.

What percent of Americans are able to max out their contributions to an HSA for their entire career before needing to take money out of it? You're acting as if the exception is the norm.

public schools, public goods is an example of mixed market, not socialism as I stated before. they are taking advantage of your (impersonal) economic ignorance (not me thinking highly of myself, just the facts) to try to trojan horse bad ideas.

Who is they? How is "mixed market" different from mixed socialism/capitalism? Is public education not a form of socialism? If not, why is it socialism for college but not for grades K-12?

If education is "public goods," then why isn't "public health" a form of "public goods?" People need to be healthy in addition to being educated in order to be fully functioning members of society.

So basically, you are sick and the current system doesn't serve you well enough, leaving you embittered. Well, I'm sorry to say socialized medicine just takes your problem and gives it to more people, that's what it does in Europe and is the inevitable result when demand rises but supply stays the same. Which is one of my main points, namely decreasing demand, you never see talked about because it's not something people want to hear.

Yes, like millions of other Americans, I have a chronic, incurable autoimmune disease that is very expensive to live with.

How do you propose handling the millions of people like me who have seen their costs rise exponentially in the last 20 years (yes, they started rising long before the ACA was enacted)?

It's far easier to see the problems than to think through and propose working solutions, which socialism ain't. They are selling you a dream you'll never see realized, and if by somehow this country did, you'll eventually wish it hadn't. The argument is same as it ever was, the outcomes would be no different.

Who, again, is "they?"

So what are the alternative solutions? Just let medical costs and higher education costs continue to outpace incomes, making fewer and fewer people able to afford them?

The system we have now isn't capitalism. It's monopolies protected by the government policy written in large part by the medical industry (big pharma, insurance companies, hospitalists, etc). Wanna shop around for the best price? Nope, they won't let you shop around. You have to stay 'in network.' Hell, they won't even tell you in advance what something will cost. And if they do try to tell you, it's usually wrong, by a lot.

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

No thanks

 

[KopiKat]

Communism and socialism are nearly identical in terms of economic application if you're the producing individual.

In both scenarios the producer is being robbed. Where it goes barely makes a difference. In fact, economically in some ways socialism is worse because the money is taken from a producer and given to a non producer.

As between the producer and all the world, the producer has the superior right to the money.

If capitalism is so bad - people wouldn't risk their life to get here.

The rest of your post is non sequitur beard stroking nonsense from someone who's trying to avoid the issue.

And the reason it fails is because the productive are restricted in their ability to achieve rewards, which is the primary basis for a productive society: the ability to seek and achieve reward for one's effort. By restricting, limiting, eventually controlling the worker's ability to achieve rewards, their desire, their motivation, their individual creativeness takes a nosedive, big-time. It dies. This includes employers who are no longer able to achieve profits, and thus quit their business.

This is also why true nationalism is merely a fine line from socialism. Because eventually the government must take control of the industries just to keep them going, just to keep a level of productivity at a threshold where it can pay for things (pay for socialism). Industry and all infrastructure, nationalized to keep things afloat, by rule, by an iron fist.

 

[Bigblue2023]

You guys are wasting your breath on beave. He sees a personal benefit to bernie and socialism, so hes all in. That gets to the heart of why the idea of socialism is spreading in this country, especially among younger people. There is that one thing that they think will really help them, like free college, and they latch onto that thinking it's going to help them, so socialism must be great. They lose all sight of the fact they have to give up their freedom and their kids freedom to get it. Then 15 years down the road they'll figure out they paid a FAR greater price to get that one free thing they wanted so badly.

Beave, I'm sorry you're sick and I hope you get everything you need to get better. The one thing I can promise you beyond a shadow of all doubt is your care will not in any way improve under socialized medicine. It is far more likely to get worse. I understand you are unable to see that, but it's a reality I sincerely hope you dont see, for everyone's benefit.

 

[BeaveUKGT]

Sigh. I'm not "all in" on either Bernie or socialism. In fact I'm not a Bernie supporter, and I don't plan to vote for him.

I'm simply trying (in futility, apparently) to point out that we already have some socialism in what are traditional American systems.

I'd vote for somebody promoting real reform of a capitalist version of healthcare if such a candidate existed, but, alas, there isn't such a candidate from either party. Nobody from the right will dare take on the insurance industry or big pharma and demand actual competition for insurance, hospitals, and drug companies.

I guess you see in my posts only what you want to see. You want so badly to just label me as a "liberal" or a "socialist" so that you can dismiss in your mind what I have posted.

 

[KopiKat]

What percent of Americans are able to max out their contributions to an HSA for their entire career before needing to take money out of it? You're acting as if the exception is the norm.




Who is they? How is "mixed market" different from mixed socialism/capitalism? Is public education not a form of socialism? If not, why is it socialism for college but not for grades K-12?

If education is "public goods," then why isn't "public health" a form of "public goods?" People need to be healthy in addition to being educated in order to be fully functioning members of society.



Yes, like millions of other Americans, I have a chronic, incurable autoimmune disease that is very expensive to live with.

How do you propose handling the millions of people like me who have seen their costs rise exponentially in the last 20 years (yes, they started rising long before the ACA was enacted)?



Who, again, is "they?"

So what are the alternative solutions? Just let medical costs and higher education costs continue to outpace incomes, making fewer and fewer people able to afford them?

The system we have now isn't capitalism. It's monopolies protected by the government policy written in large part by the medical industry (big pharma, insurance companies, hospitalists, etc). Wanna shop around for the best price? Nope, they won't let you shop around. You have to stay 'in network.' Hell, they won't even tell you in advance what something will cost. And if they do try to tell you, it's usually wrong, by a lot.

How have education and health care not been equal social programs for decades already? Medicare, Medicaid . . these have been available and optional for many decades. Public education, a social program, yes - this too is and has been an optional program. Other methods to care for one's self, educate one's self, one's children, family, dependents, and so on . . other methods have been available through the private sector for many decades: private insurance, private education.

What Mr. Sanders proposes IS socialism. State provided and mandated health care FOR ALL. This does not compare to public education as a "social program", where citizens have the freedom to choose it or choose something else.

Farm subsidies. Yes, probably each and every farmer out there applies for his share of subsistence when he grows a crop of corn, soybeans, etc. But is not forced on him. Nor is the act of growing a crop.

If people are unable to grasp.the significance of being mandated to participate in a govt. provided program for something that (a) they were never required to have and (b) were able to provide for themselves if they did want it, then that's on them. That's their business. But the rest of us should not be surprised by the fact that, just like the form of socialism, when those same people try to apply their ignorance on the rest of us . . . by force.

 

[FusterCluck]

Fear. It's what's for dinner.

 

[Bigblue2023]

Sigh. I'm not "all in" on either Bernie or socialism. In fact I'm not a Bernie supporter, and I don't plan to vote for him.

I'm simply trying (in futility, apparently) to point out that we already have some socialism in what are traditional American systems.

I'd vote for somebody promoting real reform of a capitalist version of healthcare if such a candidate existed, but, alas, there isn't such a candidate from either party. Nobody from the right will dare take on the insurance industry or big pharma and demand actual competition for insurance, hospitals, and drug companies.

I guess you see in my posts only what you want to see. You want so badly to just label me as a "liberal" or a "socialist" so that you can dismiss in your mind what I have posted.

You say you're not (finally), but then use every post to defend socialism. So your actions sing a different tune.

 

[TheFrontRunner]