POLITICAL THREAD

[fuzz77]

The key words here are "To start". Then after some nutjob kills kids in a school with a hunting rifle you'll want to ban those. Then .... until your end game of banning all guns.

Ahh...so because you think there's a slippery slope then let's do nothing?

How about we cross the hunting rifle debate when we get there? I own hunting rifles and I know a lot of other hunters who own hunting rifles who feel like I do who support removing military style weapons but want to keep their hunting weapons.

Hunting rifles at least have an alternative purpose. I don't see too many people out hunting with AR-15 outfitted with 100 round clips. Also why don't any of these shooters use hunting rifles? I mean the University of Texas tower shooter had some hunting weapons but since then...

 

[fuzz77]

Are you advocating we do nothing about them and allow them to shoot up schools? That's the problem with you people. We can't even have a dialogue about dealing with mental health issues because you always jump to "waaaah, they want to lock up our voters"!!!

So we somehow know who plans to shoot up schools and we do nothing?
Explain exactly how that works? What is the threshold that allows us to lock someone up for something that is said or written?
If I say I'm going to be a professional pussy-grabber...can I be locked up for saying that??? So again, you want to trash the 1st amendment so you can save the 2nd amendment?

Last I checked you actually have to commit a crime before you get arrested.

 

[fuzz77]

This seems a little apples and oranges to me.

Anonymous internet post with vague statement vs direct threat by a verifiable person caught on camera.

If I post here that I want to be a professional paddock posters shooter, that’s a lot different than crafting a note making a direct threat on a specific, non anonymous poster and sliding said note under that posters door and getting caught red handed doing it.

Exactly.

 

[Mashburned]

This kid should have been locked up somewhere because he was psychotic. We used to have a place for people like him, now we don’t for some reason.

 

[warrior-cat]

Ahh...so because you think there's a slippery slope then let's do nothing?

How about we cross the hunting rifle debate when we get there? I own hunting rifles and I know a lot of other hunters who own hunting rifles who feel like I do who support removing military style weapons but want to keep their hunting weapons.

Hunting rifles at least have an alternative purpose. I don't see too many people out hunting with AR-15 outfitted with 100 round clips. Also why don't any of these shooters use hunting rifles? I mean the University of Texas tower shooter had some hunting weapons but since then...

You missed the earlier responses of Americans wanting to ensure they have enough protection against the government.

 

[ymmot31]

So we somehow know who plans to shoot up schools and we do nothing?
Explain exactly how that works? What is the threshold that allows us to lock someone up for something that is said or written?
If I say I'm going to be a professional pussy-grabber...can I be locked up for saying that??? So again, you want to trash the 1st amendment so you can save the 2nd amendment?

Last I checked you actually have to commit a crime before you get arrested.

We've already posted about the Brady Act in Florida today. Why don't you look it up and then explain how this idiot wasn't locked up for observation and diagnosis.

 

[ymmot31]

This kid should have been locked up somewhere because he was psychotic. We used to have a place for people like him, now we don’t for some reason.

Because they vote democrat.

 

[Pelosigalore]

To start you would have to ask people to turn them in. And yes, there would still be many on the black market but at least you would start the process of removing them. People that held on to theirs would be risking time if they get caught with them.

Yeah, you can change magazines in a few seconds but if you have to carry 20 5 round magazines vs having 1 100 round magazine those few seconds after each clip allow that many more people to get away and buys time for law enforcement.

I am very conservative and I don’t have a problem banning some of these hi capacity magazines. But, let’s say these are illuminated, what would happen if a psycho used a handgun to kill a bunch of people next. What then? I won’t say it’s a slippery slope, but once you give the left an inch, they want to take about 100 Miles.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

This kid should have been locked up somewhere because he was psychotic. We used to have a place for people like him, now we don’t for some reason.

Been a 95% decrease in # of people in psych wards since the 50s. Has not been a 95% decrease in psychos.

 

[JohnKBA]

Been a 95% decrease in # of people in psych wards since the 50s. Has not been a 95% decrease in psychos.

View embedded media

Seems like every asylum is now vacant except when they turn them into haunted houses in October every year. They were built for a reason. To your point, there are more crazy people now than there have ever been

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Seems like every asylum is now vacant except when they turn them into haunted houses in October every year. They were built for a reason. To your point, there are more crazy people now than there have ever been

Afraid to offend. Pump em with meds.

Ted wants to use the girls room - normal.

Jimmy is killing little animals - just expressing himself bc he was adopted

This most recent shooter “fell thru the cracks”...no - we are soft and have made the cracks so large as to not hurt any feelings.

 

[JStaff2187]

I am very conservative and I don’t have a problem banning some of these hi capacity magazines. But, let’s say these are illuminated, what would happen if a psycho used a handgun to kill a bunch of people next. What then? I won’t say it’s a slippery slope, but once you give the left an inch, they want to take about 100 Miles.

Evil people are going to evil. “Mentally ill”* people are going to do things someone not “mentally ill” would not do. Gun, knife, car, brick, bomb, fire, poison, sledgehammer, wire, their own two hands, etc.

Truth is if someone has lived a pretty quiet life with no major crimes committed, they can obtain pretty much whatever they want within reason. Problem is people snap sometimes. You can make X illegal, keep Y legal... in the end that person will ultimately do something, somehow. It’s a sad truth, but it’s the truth.

*I put mentally ill in quotations because I feel like it gets used far too often. There are certainly mentallly ill people out there, but just because you want to do something evil doesn’t make you mentally ill. Sometimes people just decide to be evil and that makes you evil.

**Also not saying the most recent shooter wasn’t mentally ill. Just that we can’t always label someone that because they do something horrific.

 

[JStaff2187]

Afraid to offend. Pump em with meds.

Ted wants to use the girls room - normal.

Jimmy is killing little animals - just expressing himself bc he was adopted

Hit the nail on the head.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Canada and the US are not really that different. Then one thing I’ve never really grasped is the obsession with/worship of firearms down here.

I can’t make the leap from “260 years ago some British dudes tried to tax us, so any tom, dick and harry should be allowed to possess any weapon he wants to.”

I’m frankly indifferent to guns. If people want to own them, great. I just shake my head when any attempt at discussion about a smarter process is met with extreme defiance from the gun nuts. And for the record, I could say the same thing about pro choice extremists.

It's ingrained in our culture.

Our nation was literally won at the end of a musket. Victorious, the framers thought so highly of the right to bear arms, they noted it only behind the right to free speech and religion. It was that important.

Then for decades, a gun was the only protection one had on the frontier. Yes in years it's a long time. But when you think about it in generations, it really isn't.That was only three or four generations ago.

On down the line much stayed the same. In rural areas law enforcement was so geographically far a gun was your only protection. No grocery stores, so if you didn't hunt you might not eat. Two or generations at most (depending on age).

Start looking at it that way, and it's easier to see.

 

[JohnKBA]

It's ingrained in our culture.

Our nation was literally won at the end of a musket. Victorious, the framers thought so highly of the right to bear arms, they noted it only behind the right to free speech and religion. It was that important.

Then for decades, a gun was the only protection one had on the frontier. Yes in years it's a long time. But when you think about it in generations, it really isn't.That was only three or four generations ago.

On down the line much stayed the same. In rural areas law enforcement was so geographically far a gun was your only protection. No grocery stores, so if you didn't hunt you might not eat. Two or generations at most (depending on age).

Start looking at it that way, and it's easier to see.

Great post BBI. Well said.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I don’t have the answers. What frustrates me is that even trying to get a conversation started turns into a binary battle where 0 equals do nothing and 1 equals ban and confiscate all guns. Is there no middle ground? If you’re telling me there isn’t, I’ll accept that and move on.

That's because politics dictate the discussion always erodes to guns. That's a binary issue, but it keeps campaign coffers full.

In reality, there are multiple factors at play in these shootings. Some easily addressed (effective investigation into legit complaints) some much harder (emotional health, coddling kids, etc).

Gun debate is actually the least productive. The gun itself is but a tool. The desire and mindset is the real evil here.

Finally additional gun regulation would've done nothing here. It should've been easily prevented under current safeguards. And we know for an absolute fact that Uber strict gun laws don't stop gun violence (see Chicago).

So don't get sucked into the binary issue which really is a red herring to this issue and is absolutely not a valid method of prevention for future shootings

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Threatening to shoot up a school is against the law. Ever heard of terroristic threats? Its illegal. He could've been thrown in jail over that youtube comment that the FBI ignored.

Yep. Could've sought protective orders if made against a specific student. That would've gone into a database preventing any legal gun purchase

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Knee jerk? The Columbine school shooting was 19 years ago. The University of Texas school shooting was 52 years ago. So when has enough time gone by for something to no longer be considered knee jerk?

Below are just some of the school shootings...

• 2018, 14 February - Marjory Stoneman Douglas High school shootings - (17 dead)

• 2017, November 14 - Rancho Tehama Reserve shootings - (6 dead)

• 2015, 1 October - Umpqua Community College shooting - (10 dead)

• 2014, October 24- Marysville Pilchuck High School shooting - (5 dead)

• 2013, June 7 - 2013 Santa Monica shooting - (6 dead)

• 2012, December 14- Sandy Hook Elementary School shootings - (28 deaths)

• 2012, 2 April - Oikos University shooting - (7 deaths)

• 2008, February 14 - Northern Illinois University shooting - (6 deaths)

• 2007, 6 April - Virginia Tech massacre - (33 deaths)

• 2006, October 2 - West Nickel Mines School shooting - (6 deaths)

• 2005, 21 March - Red Lake shootings - (10 deaths)

• 1999, 20 April - Columbine High School massacre - (15 deaths)

• 1998, May 21 - Thurston High School shooting - (4 deaths)

• 1998, March 24 - Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden - (5 deaths)

• 1991, 1 November - University of Iowa shooting - (6 deaths)

• 1976, 12 July - California State University, Fullerton massacre - (7 deaths)

• 1970, 4 May - Kent State shootings (4 deaths)

• 1966, 12 November - Mesa, Arizona - (5 deaths)

• 1966, 1 August - University of Texas tower shooting - (17 deaths)

• 1940, May 6 - Pasadena - (5 deaths) [10][11][12][13]

• 1898, December 13 - Charleston - (6 deaths) [14]

• 1893, March 26 - Plain Dealing high school - (4 deaths) [15]

• 1764, July 26 - Enoch Brown (10 deaths)

Already numerous laws against the actions taken by each. Murder, etc. That didn't stop them. And neither will one more law. Or a hundred more.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

What do you do when the next shooter carries a semi auto pistol into a school. You gonna ban them too?
You havent solved anything, the root cause problem is still there. Because the gun isn’t the issue, it’s the person.

I am very conservative and I don’t have a problem banning some of these hi capacity magazines. But, let’s say these are illuminated, what would happen if a psycho used a handgun to kill a bunch of people next. What then? I won’t say it’s a slippery slope, but once you give the left an inch, they want to take about 100 Miles.

A pistol is way more dangerous in these situations than an AR 15. Much easier to conceal and can carry more guns and clips.

Jmo

 

[Mashburned]

Also, this crazy person was on....ADHD meds! Shocking!

Does every fn kid have ADHD now?

This is a problem that nobody talks about. And did these ADHD drugs help this kid? The kid who was visited by the police 39 times over 7 years. The kid who broadcast cutting himself on Snapchat etc etc etc. What exactly did those drugs do for him?

I legit believe adhd “condition”/drugs were invented to a) obviously line the pockets of Rx companies and b) wreak havoc on young male children/appease PC crowd/feminazis.

But that’s another discussion.

 

[JStaff2187]

Also, this crazy person was on....ADHD meds! Shocking!

Does every fn kid have ADHD now?

This is a problem that nobody talks about. And did these ADHD drugs help this kid? The kid who was visited by the police 39 times over 7 years. The kid who broadcast cutting himself on Snapchat etc etc etc. What exactly did those drugs do for him?

I legit believe adhd “condition”/drugs were invented to a) obviously line the pockets of Rx companies and b) wreak havoc on young male children.

But that’s another discussion.

Agreed. ADHD for young people today? You could probably diagnose all of them if they have a smart phone.

You could give some people all the medicine in the world and it wouldn’t make a difference... well that would because they’d be dead, but you get what I’m saying.

 

[Catfan in Tn.]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/articl...sf/2018/02/florida_school_shooting_nicola.amp
Cruz’s brother committed and not by his choice.

 

[Phil_The_Music]

So we somehow know who plans to shoot up schools and we do nothing?
Explain exactly how that works? What is the threshold that allows us to lock someone up for something that is said or written?
If I say I'm going to be a professional pussy-grabber...can I be locked up for saying that??? So again, you want to trash the 1st amendment so you can save the 2nd amendment?

Last I checked you actually have to commit a crime before you get arrested.

Terroristic threatening is a crime. He threatens to commit any crime likely to result in death or serious physical injury to another person or likely to result in substantial property damage to another person

 

[Mashburned]

It’s out of control.

Schools used to paddle kids and tell em STFU. Now they send them to the doctor for a ADHD diagnose and medical cocaine.

 

[CastleRubric]

Howdy

I followed the (presumably now defunct) "Yes, California" movement pretty closely for about the last 10-12 months or so.....this is the name given to the initiative to gauge internal interest and develop plans for CA's secession from the USA

I've liked their site - their blog was last updated in Jan of this year so it's pretty current

Aside from the fact that the writing is poor in several areas, there's no strong indication of a real risk analysis on their part -- and the whole thing sounds like a bad under-grad paper

But the WEALTH of irony ---

In multiple areas the California secession movement complains about how they are taxed to support other states with who they have nothing in common .,. and they're tired of having their taxes confiscated for "welfare"

They explain up front that secession IS legal because the CONSTITUTION reserves rights to the states where the Fed-Gov isn't explicitly assigned a role

They cite safety as one of their main reasons for wanting to leave the Union.....and openly state that Nations no longer load up ships and "invade other countries anymore..."......Because......"it's the 21st century"

They have already decided that they will "Allow" the US military to remain......but will start "leasing the land" to them and make lots of Sweet Cash like that.....

AND. while there's a LOT more Zaniness on there......this bit was the best...the NEW YORKER ( Louis J. Marinelli) who founded the movement.....left CA .... and left the USA.......to go live in...........

((Wait for it)))




RUSSIA....where he was allegedly receiving material support -

The campaign then ran into controversy due to its president Louis J. Marinelli, a New Yorker living in Russia,[16] who was reported to have received significant assistance from the Russian government to promote his efforts.[17] Marinelli announced on December 18, 2016, that the Yes California campaign had opened an "embassy" in Moscow as a cultural centre to help educate Russians about California's history, boost trade, and promote tourism. The "embassy" has no legal standing.[18] The Moscow office was partially funded by a Kremlin-backed charity linked to Russian President Vladimir Putin, while the Anti-Globalization Movement of Russia provided the office space rent-free.[19][20]

On April 17, in the context of the alleged Russian interference in the 2016 elections, the Yes California organization announced that it had decided to halt its efforts, .......Still, BBC News reported in November 2017 that it found evidence that social media accounts with ties to Russia pushed a huge Twitter trend in favor of an independent California on election night 2016.

SO -- this is yet another example of how some political operatives will accuse you of the thing they're actually guilty of doing.....and it's a WHOPPER

I hope some of you consider sharing this as part of the ongoing national dialogue about how Russia was working with Trump etc......


Here's their main site -
https://yescalifornia.org

here's the wiki that will provide quick references to the well known ACTUAL Russian connections
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_California

 

[bigblueinsanity]

It’s out of control.

Schools used to paddle kids and tell em STFU. Now they send them to the doctor for a ADHD diagnose and medical cocaine.

Yep. Those meds are an alternative to actual discipline

 

[JStaff2187]

It’s out of control.

Schools used to paddle kids and tell em STFU. Now they send them to the doctor for a ADHD diagnose and medical cocaine.

I work in an elementary school. I cannot tell you how many times I hear the word medicine. I have to double check to make sure I’m not working in a hospital or pharmacy.

And if kids act up, they get coddled. It’s the biggest BS I’ve ever seen. That or they get bribed to be good. Never punished. Only rewards.

 

[CastleRubric]

Ref: Mental Health Screening

The Bush Jr admin actually established a President's Commission on Mental Health

I watched the movement as closely as I could from about 2006-ish to 2008 or so

I was working at the CDC's Chronic Disease Center in Atlanta at the time and the subject material aligned a bit with the behavioral epidemiology practices that are inherent with the study (and attempted prevention) of Chronic diseases

There were specific plans established at that time to introduce goat-sponsored mental health screenings in our schools......and also for pregnant women"


Illinois was going to be the trial state and I shared data with CDC personnel since it was directly relevant to some of the things we were doing in schools at the time as well



I can't agree with the idea as it was presented and it was a good example IMO of the type of program that "conservatives" should be willing to reject even though it originated in the R-party leadership


So i wonder.......are we going to see a push to resurrect that bush era program?

This link will confirm the basic history of the "New Freedom Commission" --and may jump start you into deeper research etc

I'm about to drink a beer now

http://govinfo.library.unt.edu/mentalhealthcommission/

 

[CastleRubric]

One really important angle to this 'mental health' debate......is how you establish criteria and a working definition of what "Good Mental Health' is

and that's where the whole damn thing starts to sound like a nightmare to me.....

.....ask yourself who without our FINELY TUNED Federal Govt.....you would trust to enforce regulations to assess your mental well being?




FFFFFFFF THAT

 

[AustinTXCat]

To start you would have to ask people to turn them in. And yes, there would still be many on the black market but at least you would start the process of removing them. People that held on to theirs would be risking time if they get caught with them.

Yeah, you can change magazines in a few seconds but if you have to carry 20 5 round magazines vs having 1 100 round magazine those few seconds after each clip allow that many more people to get away and buys time for law enforcement.

Fuzz: I've harbored great respect for you and your views here. You will never, EVER, see me like a post which reflects negatively on you and your beliefs.

That said, the firearms debate requires much further exploration. I'm a longtime assault-rifle owner who has better shit going on than worry about psychos with an agenda. Ex-military. I worry more about the stock market and crypto-currency and loving fellow man. Have not shot my AR 15 HB Match in nearly 20 years. Still have ball ammo, if required. Assault weapons are a means to an end.

Is a cultural shift needed in US attifudes? Yes! But who feeds it? Hint: NOT the NRA.

Would folks feel the same if this SOB fired the school up with pistols? I dunno, maybe or maybe not.

We were founded on distancing ourselves from the Brits. We need some sort of positive influence. It takes a village, and that includes Hollywood.

 

[Bill Derington]

Again you think someone who walks into a school and starts shooting is rational...smh.

The FBI had a "warning" that someone who signed a comment on a youtube video as Nikolas Cruz... at the time it was reported
a) you don't know if that is a real name and if it is real, which of the 100's of Nickolas Cruz's made it. The FBI said they didn't have enough information to continue the investigation.
b) his comment wasn't a threat

It's easy to 2nd guess in hindsight. In a country of 360 million people the FBI has similar things reported 100s of times a day and 99.9% of them go nowhere.

Let's get something clear. There is zero way to make schools 100% safe. Unless you want to assign 100+ cops to every school how in the fvck do you think 2 cops can stop someone who comes in, pulls the fire alarm and starts shooting when the halls are full of kids?

Every one of these recent shootings were done by people who legally acquired their weapons. Doesn't that tell you there's a problem?

Fuzz, I agree that there is zero chance to make 100 % safe, if someone decides they’re going to kill, they’re going to kill.

The FBI was warned twice about him. You can blow through that all you want, but they f*cked up.

Yea, I agree there’s a problem, but you want to put a band aid on a cancerous lesion, instead of getting at the root cause.

The kid in Marshall County used a pistol, you want to ban those too?

 

[Platinumdrgn]

No, make the punishment fit the crime. There is no doubt this idiot killed those kids. He should have been executed already. No hesitation in trials like mass murders. Front of the line in judgement and execution and sentence. It would be a start and a deterrent.

Now see we can find common ground. **** due process for mass murderers. They got video and 500 witnesses. Hold his trial tomorrow and put him to death the next day. Instead his trial will drag out for years and if he does get death penalty it will take at least 10 years to carry out.

 

[rqarnold]

It’s out of control.

Schools used to paddle kids and tell em STFU. Now they send them to the doctor for a ADHD diagnose and medical cocaine.

Schools didn’t choose to change the way they discipline students. The courts necissitated it.

 

[CastleRubric]

Has anyone outlined a detailed plan .......and promoted actual dialogue (and risk analysis etc) to address what various degrees of gun confiscation / regulation would look like?


I easily could have missed it

'Cause all I've seen is poorly reheated propaganda and irrational rants and/or grandstanding behind vague generalizations or the like


Do we have longitudinal studies that show data collected in the same nation/region (or analysis of a specific population) that offers any insight into unexpected consequences of disarming a swath your population?


is anyone looking at other factors that could be present and directly influencing gun violence?

Stability of the familyy (which we KNOW has a relationship with both socio-icon status AND crimes committed)

Medications and/or environmental factors?

demographic changes that may have positive/negative impact?






cause if none of that is happening......and all you really have is just....LOUDER propaganda ....then you can bet your sweet ass that "Gun Control".....or even abolishing the 2nd amendment.......

won't be the last demand that's levied on us

 

[moe_schmoe]

That or they get bribed to be good.

Screw incentivizing you to excel in the classroom. We'll pay you if you can just not be a savage.

Philly Kids Get $100 Bucks to Not Fight Each Other

 

[AustinTXCat]

Now see we can find common ground. **** due process for mass murderers. They got video and 500 witnesses. Hold his trial tomorrow and put him to death the next day. Instead his trial will drag out for years and if he does get death penalty it will take at least 10 years to carry out.

Thanks, liberal, bleeding heart lawyers, hired by this SOB's mom on Obama-era drugs, to defend his sorry ass.

Shit rolls downhill.

 

[Platinumdrgn]

Thanks, liberal, bleeding heart lawyers, hired by this SOB's mom on Obama-era drugs, to defend his sorry ass.

Shit rolls downhill.

He doesn't have a mom, she died last year. All he has is a public defender last I saw.

 

[Platinumdrgn]

I do know this, the current generation of politicians better do something about the accelerating gun violence. Because the young generation is sick of the shit and not afraid of pushing for banning a lot more than just assault rifles when they take over politics. You address it now in small steps or 10 years from now it gets done in big ugly steps.

 

[bigbluefattycat]

One of the few that didn't suicide or get killed in the process and y'all want to kill him right away? Why not ask the kid and research his behaviors to get some information about prevention before burying the evidence so soon?

 

[anon_l8pbkn96tg3j6]

I wonder what the actual process was at the FBI. Do they get a shit load of these kinds of crazy kids and just can't deal with them all? Or was it a more bureaucratic "he's probably not going to do anything, and nobody ever got fired for not arresting a minor" type of inaction?