NBA Legends draft round 2: UKNorse vs Aike

[DraftCat]

We drafted 12 players from a pool of anyone in NBA history. It is understood that this includes the totality of the player's career and not one particular season.

Which team do you believe would win a 7 game playoff series on a neutral court played with today's regulations (shot clock, three point line, etc)?

UKNorse

Steph Curry, PG

James Harden, SG/PG

James Worthy, SF/PF

Kevin Love, PF

Shaquille O'Neal, C

Reserves

Klay Thompson, SG

George Mikan, C

Tiny Archibald, PG

Nate Thurmond, C/PF

Nikola Jokic, C

Hal Greer, G

Billy Cunningham, F

Aike

Magic Johnson G/Everything

Elgin Baylor F

Anthony Davis F/C

Pete Maravich G

Artis Gilmore C

David Thompson G/F

Chris Bosh F/C

Bobby Jones F

Drazen Petrovic G

Bruce Bowen G/F

Lenny Wilkens G

Dolph Schayes F/C

 

[GonzoCat90]

Did Aike ever post a starting lineup?

I want to hold off on voting until I know how these teams play, because my first instinct is to see a lineup vs a list of players and your brain immediately favors the one that looks like a team.

 

[Aike]

For the record, playing by “today’s regulations” was never a criteria while we were drafting our teams.

 

[Aike]

For this matchup, I would start:

Magic Johnson
Pistol Pete
Elgin Baylor
Anthony Davis
Artis Gilmore

Must say that I like the matchups quite a bit.

Gilmore is one of few who can physically hold his own against Shaq.

AD will manhandle Kevin Love.

James Worthy dreams of being Elgin Baylor.

Pistol Pete vs. Steph is just a fun little showdown.

And Magic vs. Harden? Come on.

 

[gossie21]

Whenever you put together these all-time draft teams it can be difficult at time to reconcile how players with high usage rates will fit into a team concept. I don't particularly care for James Harden for that reason. Although I am open to debate and discussion on him because I like the other pieces UKNorse has assembled.

But that's also why I really like Aike's team. Magic, Davis, and Baylor just fit together without having to think too hard about it. Then he has other pieces like Gilmore and Bosh in the post that are comfortable filling a role.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Whenever you put together these all-time draft teams it can be difficult at time to reconcile how players with high usage rates will fit into a team concept. I don't particularly care for James Harden for that reason. Although I am open to debate and discussion on him because I like the other pieces UKNorse has assembled.

But that's also why I really like Aike's team. Magic, Davis, and Baylor just fit together without having to think too hard about it. Then he has other pieces like Gilmore and Bosh in the post that are comfortable filling a role.

See, I think Baylor is a clunky fit at the 3. He's an inside scorer and rebounder. At the 4 next to Davis at the 5 is the best fit, but that leaves Aike small/thin in a format dominated by legendary bigs.

So then you go big with Gilmore and Davis at the 4, which pushes Baylor to the 3, and with Magic at the 1, you really need to run or surround him with shooters since he's not a shooter. But your shooter is Maravich (who you should definitely hate in this format if you don't like Harden) and what does he give you if the ball isn't in his hands?

It's all so close to fitting together, but the pieces that would make one lineup work cause a problem with the other.

That said, I still think it's a better fit than Norse. Worthy is the same thing as Baylor, mostly a 4. You also have a team built for pace-and-space but then slam Shaq in the middle of it to bog everything down.

It's nice in theory to say "no one can stop Shaq and if they do he kicks it out to Steph," but that's just impossibly oversimplified and ignores that there are other players on the floor. So it's not a perfect fit on that side either.

Which is really the frustratingly fun part of all of this. You can pick from any player ever, so every player is really talented. But how does it work?

 

[drcats2013]

I voted Aike here, but I’m surprised by a runaway

 

[gossie21]

See, I think Baylor is a clunky fit at the 3. He's an inside scorer and rebounder. At the 4 next to Davis at the 5 is the best fit, but that leaves Aike small/thin in a format dominated by legendary bigs.

So then you go big with Gilmore and Davis at the 4, which pushes Baylor to the 3, and with Magic at the 1, you really need to run or surround him with shooters since he's not a shooter. But your shooter is Maravich (who you should definitely hate in this format if you don't like Harden) and what does he give you if the ball isn't in his hands?

It's all so close to fitting together, but the pieces that would make one lineup work cause a problem with the other.

That said, I still think it's a better fit than Norse. Worthy is the same thing as Baylor, mostly a 4. You also have a team built for pace-and-space but then slam Shaq in the middle of it to bog everything down.

It's nice in theory to say "no one can stop Shaq and if they do he kicks it out to Steph," but that's just impossibly oversimplified and ignores that there are other players on the floor. So it's not a perfect fit on that side either.

Which is really the frustratingly fun part of all of this. You can pick from any player ever, so every player is really talented. But how does it work?

But it's impossible to stop Shaq. And even if you could he would just kick it out to Steph.

 

[GonzoCat90]

But it's impossible to stop Shaq. And even if you could he would just kick it out to Steph.

Who is definitely at his best with someone parked in the paint to take away the threat of the drive AND on a direct kick out from the post while stationary.

Whereas Shaq thrives with motion and screens and drive and kicks.

So it's perfect, really.

 

[gossie21]

On a more serious note, I think Davis and Baylor fit together better than you are suggesting. The key is Davis' versatility. Davis isn't bogging down the offense not matter where he's playing. He just doesn't demand the ball in his hands to be effective and can initiate his offense from almost anywhere.

 

[Cowtown Cat]

I'll take @Aike.

 

[DraftCat]

Serious question how in the hell does Aike team outscore mine? He beating me with 2's?

My team scores 120+ a game and would get Davis in foul trouble on a switch. I think you all should really reconsider how he is going to put up enough points to even compete.

He has a nice collection of players but my team is literally your current GSW on steroids.

 

[WampusCAT24]

Votes for Big A, surprised by the results, felt it might be closer

 

[Aike]

One poster who shall remain nameless keeps insisting that Elgin Baylor can’t shoot.

He is literally a Dr. J/Kobe/Lebron level wing, who was well-known for being able to score from anywhere on the floor.

If you want to insist on modern rules, then give Elgin Baylor modern training and I assure you he knocks down threes whenever he feels the need.

But you can also spread the floor with Pistol and AD, let Magic and Elgin operate in a two man game. Can’t envision anyone better to feed him the ball.

If Shaq wants to help Worthy out with Elgin, we can dump to the all time leader in NBA fg percentage in Gilmore, AD can crash from the weak side past poor Kevin Love, or Magic can kick to a wide open Pistol from deep.

This team really can’t be stopped. You have to invent stuff like pretending Elgin Baylor can’t shoot to make it seem plausible to stop them.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Serious question how in the hell does Aike team outscore mine? He beating me with 2's?

My team scores 120+ a game and would get Davis in foul trouble on a switch. I think you all should really reconsider how he is going to put up enough points to even compete.

He has a nice collection of players but my team is literally your current GSW on steroids.

Not really, because Harden has to have the ball and doesn't defend like Klay. Worthy is nowhere near the same kind of player Durant is. There's no Draymond. Shaq changes the entire dynamic of the way they play too.

So it's Steph Curry, a second really good scorer, and that's about it as far as the Warriors comparisons.

I don't think your team scores 120 against the kind of talent that is in this imaginary competition, but I do think you outscore him in a vacuum. Maravich is the only real 3 point taker but I figure he and Harden are pretty much a wash. He absolutely couldn't beat you playing your way.

But what happens when Steph has to try and guard Magic? What if Shaq has to chase Davis around the perimeter if he gets smart and goes small against you? I think your team works impressively in a very particular way but can't win in a variety of ways.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

But it's impossible to stop Shaq. And even if you could he would just kick it out to Steph.

It was impossible to stop Wilt, but somehow a team with Dwight Howard starting won.

 

[DraftCat]

Not really, because Harden has to have the ball and doesn't defend like Klay. Worthy is nowhere near the same kind of player Durant is. There's no Draymond. Shaq changes the entire dynamic of the way they play too.

So it's Steph Curry, a second really good scorer, and that's about it as far as the Warriors comparisons.

I don't think your team scores 120 against the kind of talent that is in this imaginary competition, but I do think you outscore him in a vacuum. Maravich is the only real 3 point taker but I figure he and Harden are pretty much a wash. He absolutely couldn't beat you playing your way.

But what happens when Steph has to try and guard Magic? What if Shaq has to chase Davis around the perimeter if he gets smart and goes small against you? I think your team works impressively in a very particular way but can't win in a variety of ways.

I like how we aren't looking at the bench at all. 7 game series means I could make adjustments. Maybe I bring Klay into the starting line up or off the bench if one his players gets hot and let Harden play super 6th man.

I'm not worried about Steph on Magic.. I could put Steph on Pistol Pete and let Klay guard Magic if needed. I have many options on the bench to counter Aike team which is being extremely overlooked.

Nate Thurmond would take Anthony Davis off the floor.... as I mentioned your boy Kareem who is similar shape of Davis said he was the hardest player to ever score against. Not to mention Davis would sprain an ankle by the first quarter or get multiple bone bruises against Thurmond!

 

[Aike]

Not really, because Harden has to have the ball and doesn't defend like Klay. Worthy is nowhere near the same kind of player Durant is. There's no Draymond. Shaq changes the entire dynamic of the way they play too.

So it's Steph Curry, a second really good scorer, and that's about it as far as the Warriors comparisons.

I don't think your team scores 120 against the kind of talent that is in this imaginary competition, but I do think you outscore him in a vacuum. Maravich is the only real 3 point taker but I figure he and Harden are pretty much a wash. He absolutely couldn't beat you playing your way.

But what happens when Steph has to try and guard Magic? What if Shaq has to chase Davis around the perimeter if he gets smart and goes small against you? I think your team works impressively in a very particular way but can't win in a variety of ways.

Yeah, the way I see it is that I’ve got Gilmore to match Shaq, especially early when he still has his wind.

As the games progress, I can kill with that Bosh/AD speed lineup.

 

[DraftCat]

Shaq 325 comparted to Gilmore 240.... how long you think he can hold his own until he's in foul trouble by the first TV timeout?

 

[GonzoCat90]

One poster who shall remain nameless keeps insisting that Elgin Baylor can’t shoot.

He is literally a Dr. J/Kobe/Lebron level wing, who was well-known for being able to score from anywhere on the floor.

If you want to insist on modern rules, then give Elgin Baylor modern training and I assure you he knocks down threes whenever he feels the need.

But you can also spread the floor with Pistol and AD, let Magic and Elgin operate in a two man game. Can’t envision anyone better to feed him the ball.

If Shaq wants to help help Worthy out with Elgin, we can dump to the all time leader in NBA fg percentage in Gilmore, AD can crash from the weak side past poor Kevin Love, or Magic can kick to a wide open Pistol from deep.

This team really can’t be stopped. You have to invent stuff like pretending Elgin Baylor can’t shoot to make it seem plausible to stop them.

His nickname is Mr. Inside.

If Baylor can be a 3-point threat then the exercise is essentially pointless because any all-time great can claim they'd have just adapted their game to be flawless.

He shot 43% from the field for his career. I'm not doubting he could make them. I'm saying it wasn't part of his game and that he wouldn't make them at any kind of threatening rate to the point of it being a strategic strength.

So, *as it plays in this format* Elgin Baylor is not a perimeter threat or giving you any spacing. At least not based on any kind of concrete, tangible data. He was a GREAT player. You just don't get to make him perfect.

 

[Aike]

I like how we aren't looking at the bench at all. 7 game series means I could make adjustments. Maybe I bring Klay into the starting line up or off the bench if one his players gets hot and let Harden play super 6th man.

I'm not worried about Steph on Magic.. I could put Steph on Pistol Pete and let Klay guard Magic if needed. I have many options on the bench to counter Aike team which is being extremely overlooked.

Nate Thurmond would take Anthony Davis off the floor.... as I mentioned your boy Kareem who is similar shape of Davis said he was the hardest player to ever score against. Not to mention Davis would sprain an ankle by the first quarter or get multiple bone bruises against Thurmond!

Frankly, my bench has a counter for any situation you might want to throw out. I’m trying to be as objective as possible, but I just can’t see it for you. Sorry.

 

[BassProCat]

Did anyone draft MJ? I haven’t seen his name on a team yet

 

[Aike]

His nickname is Mr. Inside.

If Baylor can be a 3-point threat then the exercise is essentially pointless because any all-time great can claim they'd have just adapted their game to be flawless.

He shot 43% from the field for his career. I'm not doubting he could make them. I'm saying it wasn't part of his game and that he wouldn't make them at any kind of threatening rate to the point of it being a strategic strength.

So, *as it plays in this format* Elgin Baylor is not a perimeter threat or giving you any spacing. At least not based on any kind of concrete, tangible data. He was a GREAT player. You just don't get to make him perfect.

I’ve already pulled quotes from All-NBA players talking about what a great jump shooter he was. But I understand why you want to keep knocking him down.

Since we never actually agreed we were playing exclusively by modern rules, people can think what they want to think.

Here’s a little news flash for you that I bet you already knew...players in the 60s and 70s had no reason to shoot 25 footers because 3 pointers didn’t exist.

If we are going to draft players from the 60s and 70s, it’s a perfectly acceptable part of the exercise to speculate about how they might play today.

And it isn’t as if it’s idle speculation. We actually watched the progression of the three pointer as players went from a league with no threes to it becoming a major weapon. Even guys like Magic were hitting a nice percentage by the end of their careers.

So it’s rational, imo, to speculate that an all-time great scorer like Baylor would have knocked down threes 1. If they existed, 2. They were used to the degree they are today. Just like I can speculate that Russell Westbrook never would have shot outside 15 feet if he played in the 70s.

 

[DraftCat]

All I'm saying is this my team could put up 20 points in minutes. His team isn't equipped to come back from one of my deadly three point runs.

Good luck climbing back in the game with layups. I think the current NBA with a Steph and Klay backcourt is finding that out right about now.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I like how we aren't looking at the bench at all. 7 game series means I could make adjustments. Maybe I bring Klay into the starting line up or off the bench if one his players gets hot and let Harden play super 6th man.

I'm not worried about Steph on Magic.. I could put Steph on Pistol Pete and let Klay guard Magic if needed. I have many options on the bench to counter Aike team which is being extremely overlooked.

Nate Thurmond would take Anthony Davis off the floor.... as I mentioned your boy Kareem who is similar shape of Davis said he was the hardest player to ever score against. Not to mention Davis would sprain an ankle by the first quarter or get multiple bone bruises against Thurmond!

We're taking benches into account, but you don't get to have 9 guys on the court. If you sub in Klay for defense, you lose Harden. Or you play all three together and sit one of your forwards.

That's why I said that each adjustment you make to solve one problem creates another. It's a matter of balancing that out. But when you balance it to the point of being fixed, you lose the one way you've built your team to really thrive.

You basically just have to sell out and go for it. Compromising will get you beat. You built Steph and all these modern shooters + Shaq. That's who you have to be.

 

[DraftCat]

We're taking benches into account, but you don't get to have 9 guys on the court. If you sub in Klay for defense, you lose Harden. Or you play all three together and sit one of your forwards.

That's why I said that each adjustment you make to solve one problem creates another. It's a matter of balancing that out. But when you balance it to the point of being fixed, you lose the one way you've built your team to really thrive.

You basically just have to sell out and go for it. Compromising will get you beat. You built Steph and all these modern shooters + Shaq. That's who you have to be.

Looks like I don't have a shot either way. At the end of the day though his team isn't equipped to outscore me or come back from a deadly run my team is capable of. People are seeing Magic Johnson and BBN own Anthony Davis and are running with it.

 

[Aike]

Shaq 325 comparted to Gilmore 240.... how long you think he can hold his own until he's in foul trouble by the first TV timeout?

No kidding, you might want to study up on Artis. Universally known as one of the handful of strongest players ever. Incredible leverage.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I’ve already pulled quotes from All-NBA players talking about what a great jump shooter he was. But I understand why you want to keep knocking him down.

Since we never actually agreed we were playing exclusively by modern rules, people can think what they want to think.

Here’s a little news flash for you that I bet you already knew...players in the 60s and 70s had no reason to shoot 25 footers because 3 pointers didn’t exist.

Right. So you don't get to add that part to his game. Bob Cousy doesn't get to be built like Russell Westbrook. Bill Russell doesn't get to be a pick-and-pop stretch 4. Dirk doesn't get to go back and be a shotblocker.

I have no doubt that Elgin Baylor made a lot of 16-18 footers. So did a lot of guys who played then. We can't make them all three point shooters just because Towns and Embiid shoot 3s now. For being such a shooter, his career FG% is 43. That's without, as you put it, taking shots from 25 feet. Why would we assume that number would go up if he shot from further out?

Besides, it's not about modern rules. If Norse puts his team on the court, they're going to play a modern style. I think it's obviously assumed there will be a three point line. His guys will be shooting from there. Baylor will play the way he played.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Looks like I don't have a shot either way. At the end of the day though his team isn't equipped to outscore me or come back from a deadly run my team is capable of. People are seeing Magic Johnson and BBN own Anthony Davis and are running with it.

I think you're right about the bias, but I also think you're only seeing half of the court. You're assuming both teams against the competition they played. But they're playing each other. His style is definitely geared toward 2s and layups and transition.

But your assumption that Steph will still be dancing and chewing his mouthpiece as he embarrasses George Hill may not play out the same way when he's been guarding a Hall of Famer or has a 6'9 guy on him. Otherwise, we'd just add up the career totals for the guys we drafted and call it a day.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Now if you fellas will excuse me, I've got another dead thread to go liven up.

 

[DraftCat]

I think you're right about the bias, but I also think you're only seeing half of the court. You're assuming both teams against the competition they played. But they're playing each other. His style is definitely geared toward 2s and layups and transition.

But your assumption that Steph will still be dancing and chewing his mouthpiece as he embarrasses George Hill may not play out the same way when he's been guarding a Hall of Famer or has a 6'9 guy on him. Otherwise, we'd just add up the career totals for the guys we drafted and call it a day.

That is why there is a cute little move in basketball called a screen. Magic Johnson would either need to be constantly fighting over a screen which will start my motion offense or if he goes under.. SPLASH... if Artis Gilmore or whoever wants to switch on Curry I think we have enough footage of Curry vs. Big men to figure that one out.

My modern offense would crush his layup squad but rupp rafters is blinded by Tragic Magic.

 

[Aike]

Right. So you don't get to add that part to his game. Bob Cousy doesn't get to be built like Russell Westbrook. Bill Russell doesn't get to be a pick-and-pop stretch 4. Dirk doesn't get to go back and be a shotblocker.

I have no doubt that Elgin Baylor made a lot of 16-18 footers. So did a lot of guys who played then. We can't make them all three point shooters just because Towns and Embiid shoot 3s now. For being such a shooter, his career FG% is 43. That's without, as you put it, taking shots from 25 feet. Why would we assume that number would go up if he shot from further out?

Besides, it's not about modern rules. If Norse puts his team on the court, they're going to play a modern style. I think it's obviously assumed there will be a three point line. His guys will be shooting from there. Baylor will play the way he played.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. I choose to view people how I think they would play in this series.

Lots of guys shot inefficiently in the 50s and 60s. By his third to last season in 1970, Baylor was still scoring 24 ppg on 49% shooting.

He was also a 78% career free throw shooter. The guy could shoot and there is absolutely no reason to think anything but that he would excel under modern conditions, being fed by Magic Johnson, surrounded by other all time greats.

The voters can see it however they choose, but keep putting in work. Admirable.

 

[GonzoCat90]

That is why there is a cute little move in basketball called a screen. Magic Johnson would either need to be constantly fighting over a screen which will start my motion offense or if he goes under.. SPLASH... if Artis Gilmore or whoever wants to switch on Curry I think we have enough footage of Curry vs. Big men to figure that one out.

My modern offense would crush his layup squad but rupp rafters is blinded by Tragic Magic.

Again, half the court. Magic/Davis stops the pick and roll. Baylor is a great athlete too. And if you're bringing Shaq up to screen and then crash hard to the rim, how long can he keep that pace AND chase Davis around?

But also, how long can Davis be a primary offensive option if he's got Shaq laying on him on the other end.

It's a fun battle of styles. I think if both teams play their peak, yours outscores him. I just question whether yours can play at it's peak against his particular players.

 

[dvillecatfan]

UKNorse deserves this blowout. How you gonna have Jokic on your team, and not mention(play) him in the the matchup thread. All the great shooters on the team, and no mention of the great passing big man playing with them...this L is on you coach. BTW, you have an original 50 greatest player on your bench with no mention of him...pfft. Must be a Tom Thibodeau guy.

 

[DraftCat]

I would love to hear from all 15 voters though on how Aike would out score not only my starting lineup but my bench. Or is this just a Magic Johnson jerk show?

 

[dvillecatfan]

I would love to hear from all 15 voters though on how Aike would out score not only my starting lineup but my bench. Or is this just a Magic Johnson jerk show?

Gave you my reason for your L. Plus he has 2 All-time great defenders on his bench. which, he has failed to mention...

 

[Aike]

Gave you my reason for your L. Plus he has 2 All-time great defenders on his bench. which, he has failed to mention...

I will mention them if I need to.

 

[Aike]

I would love to hear from all 15 voters though on how Aike would out score not only my starting lineup but my bench. Or is this just a Magic Johnson jerk show?

Here are some fun and stubborn facts which you might enjoy.

The combined career scoring average of your starting 5 is 105.7. Mine is 113.3. So, -7.6 for you.

If you would rather cherry pick the top individual season for each player, your starters averaged a combined 137.7. Mine averaged 146. So, -8.3 for you.

Not that I think adding up scoring averages should be the end all, be all of this exercise. Especially when my best player isn’t really known as a scorer, but rather a phenomenal setup man.

Still, the argument that my team would struggle to score against anyone is incredibly silly. But against Steph, Harden, and Love??? I know you aren’t being serious.

 

[JonathanW]

I had to vote for UKNorse.

As you would expect, it's close.

Even though Curry & Magic may play the PG's in this game, I expect Curry & Maravich would guard each other, and Magic & Harden would do the game. In many ways Curry is the modern Maravich, and there are many Harden - Magic similarities too. I like Tiny as the best backup of all the backup guards. If I were to rank the guards, I'd go Magic, Curry, Harden, Maravich, Archbald, D.Thompson, K.Thompson, Wilkins, Greer, Petrovic.

UKNorse forwards don't excite you, but they all can produce, and has more quality depth, although Aike may start the better pair. I'd rank the Forwards: Davis, Baylor, Worthy, Love, Thurmond, Cunningham, B.Jones, Bosh, Bowen

UKNorse is simply better at Center. Shaq & Mikan are 2 of the best 5-6 C of all-time. Rank: Shaq, Mikan, Gilmore, Schayes, Jokic.

 

[Aike]

I had to vote for UKNorse.

As you would expect, it's close.

Even though Curry & Magic may play the PG's in this game, I expect Curry & Maravich would guard each other, and Magic & Harden would do the game. In many ways Curry is the modern Maravich, and there are many Harden - Magic similarities too. I like Tiny as the best backup of all the backup guards. If I were to rank the guards, I'd go Magic, Curry, Harden, Maravich, Archbald, D.Thompson, K.Thompson, Wilkins, Greer, Petrovic.

UKNorse forwards don't excite you, but they all can produce, and has more quality depth, although Aike may start the better pair. I'd rank the Forwards: Davis, Baylor, Worthy, Love, Thurmond, Cunningham, B.Jones, Bosh, Bowen

UKNorse is simply better at Center. Shaq & Mikan are 2 of the best 5-6 C of all-time. Rank: Shaq, Mikan, Gilmore, Schayes, Jokic.

I should have stopped at “there are many Harden-Magic similarities” but I made it all the way to you ranking Kevin Love ahead of Bobby Jones and Chris Bosh.