LeBron James

[BlueRunner11]

That's a really terrible way to settle anything. At one point someone had to make the case the world wasn't flat while everyone else just knew it was.

New evidence comes along and changes previously held beliefs, at least among those intelligent and rational enough to observe and accept that evidence. Others scream and ignore it because it's different than what they've always known.

A whole lot of people will tell you there's *nothing* anyone can do to surpass Michael Jordan because that's the way it was when they were 14. Those people are useless to the conversation.

Obviously I was only being marginally serious w that.

But on its most basic level, GOAT conversations will always be determined by perception. Stats, numbers, titles, competiton, teammates, etc can always be tweaked or manipulated in such a fashion to give one and advantage over the other. These measurables put players in the convo but can never be relied upon fully to ultimately make the call.

And when it comes to perception...Jordan has a huge advantage and rightfully so imo.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Obviously I was only being marginally serious w that.

But on its most basic level, GOAT conversations will always be determined by perception. Stats, numbers, titles, competiton, teammates, etc can always be tweaked or manipulated in such a fashion to give one and advantage over the other. These measurables put players in the convo but can never be relied upon fully to ultimately make the call.

And when it comes to perception...Jordan has a huge advantage and rightfully so imo.

He hit the jackpot. Nike, ESPN, Gatorade, video games, etc. were all timed perfectly for him. Style of play helped too. The acrobatics, dunks, fadeaways, etc.

It's why a guy like Kareem doesn't get the same treatment even though he accomplished more and had a greater career. The guys driving the conversation right now are from the era where Jordan was deified. As that fades out, you'll see the discussion shift. If LeBron's career had started five years later I think he'd be viewed even more favorably.

 

[BlueRunner11]

Jordan didnt play in the hater generation. That has a lot to do with the argument too. Jordan lost in the first round 3 straight years and it's not an issue. Steve Kerr hit a game winner for the Finals and it's not taken as a slight against Jordan. Jordan never beat a championship team in the Finals other than the old Lakers when Kareem retired.

I think Jordan is the greatest of all time but to act like there isnt an argument for Lebron is hater stuff.

Thats my point. Theres no need for the argument with one, the other there is.

GOAT is decided by perception. Lebron hasnt done enough to sway enough of the masses in his favor. Some of that, maybe a lot of that he has his self to blame for all the whining, flopping, etc. People dont want to crown that. Where do you think Queen James came from?

 

[BlueRunner11]

He hit the jackpot. Nike, ESPN, Gatorade, video games, etc. were all timed perfectly for him. Style of play helped too. The acrobatics, dunks, fadeaways, etc.

It's why a guy like Kareem doesn't get the same treatment even though he accomplished more and had a greater career. The guys driving the conversation right now are from the era where Jordan was deified. As that fades out, you'll see the discussion shift. If LeBron's career had started five years later I think he'd be viewed even more favorably.

I agree with Jordans timing 100 percent.

Only time will tell about the rest. Im doubtful. The reason? People dont like Lebron.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I agree with Jordans timing 100 percent.

Only time will tell about the rest. Im doubtful. The reason? People dont like Lebron.

The biggest reason people don't like LeBron is because he's the challenger to the throne they worship. They did it to Kobe until it was clear he would fall short, then those same people loved Kobe for all of the ways he's similar to MJ.

 

[Wall2Wall]

The biggest reason people don't like LeBron is because he's the challenger to the throne they worship. They did it to Kobe until it was clear he would fall short, then those same people loved Kobe for all of the ways he's similar to MJ.

LeBron is also outspoken and political. In this time and era that pretty much guarantees that 50% of the population hates your right off the bat.

 

[BlueRunner11]

The biggest reason people don't like LeBron is because he's the challenger to the throne they worship. They did it to Kobe until it was clear he would fall short, then those same people loved Kobe for all of the ways he's similar to MJ.

Im not sure about all that. I can only speak for myself and it has more to do with how he plays the game. The whining, crying, flopping, etc...not characteristics of a GOAT imo. We make fun of Duke and others for the same stuff and rightfully so. Its an embarrassment to the game.

Always liked Kobe, but not the Lakers so that was my issue.

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

This is one of those arguments where you either believe A or B and there is no way anyone will be able to convince you otherwise. It's fun to argue, but also pointless. Both players are all time greats and cases can be made for both as to being the best ever. For me personally it will always be Jordan as the GOAT. The 6 for 6 in Finals appearances and overall killer attitude vs the whining and flopping for LeBron is what makes a difference for me, but that's my personal opinion.

I think I'm gonna head over to the football board and ask who was the best receiver all time, Rice or Moss.

Thats my point. Theres no need for the argument with one, the other there is.

GOAT is decided by perception. Lebron hasnt done enough to sway enough of the masses in his favor. Some of that, maybe a lot of that he has his self to blame for all the whining, flopping, etc. People dont want to crown that. Where do you think Queen James came from?

Queen James came from haters man. You're using flopping in an argument about the greatest player ever, that's ridiculous.

 

[BlueRunner11]

I think I'm gonna head over to the football board and ask who was the best receiver all time, Rice or Moss.

Queen James came from haters man. You're using flopping in an argument about the greatest player ever, that's ridiculous.

The queen name came from him whining, crying, and flopping on the court. Surely you can understand that.

Amazing to me the same UK fans that torch any player or program that promotes that chit but then pretends like Lebron doesnt do it, dismisses it, or even worse...defends and justifies it! Lmao. But yeah, easier just say haters gonna hate I guess.

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

The queen name came from him whining, crying, and flopping on the court. Surely you can understand that.

Amazing to me the same UK fans that torch any player or program that promotes that chit but then pretends like Lebron doesnt do it, dismisses it, or even worse...defends and justifies it! Lmao. But yeah, easier just say haters gonna hate I guess.

My point is, what the hell does that have to do with the GOAT argument? Where was it defended or justified?

 

[Wall2Wall]

The queen name came from him whining, crying, and flopping on the court. Surely you can understand that.

Amazing to me the same UK fans that torch any player or program that promotes that chit but then pretends like Lebron doesnt do it, dismisses it, or even worse...defends and justifies it! Lmao. But yeah, easier just say haters gonna hate I guess.

Everybody flops in the NBA. And it's infuriating as it is now taught to the players as a way to gain an advantage over the other team. Everything that LeBron does is measured, magnified and criticized more than any other player. The price of being the best player in the NBA during a time where we have the social media outlets and abilities to discuss every minor detail of a player. Reggie Miller is arguably the greatest three point shooter of all-time. I would say he, Ray Allen and Steph Curry can all make a case for that crown. Reggie's tactics to draw fouls and instigate his defender were painful to watch as an opposing fan. But that doesn't take anything away from his production. Floyd Mayweather is 50-0. No other boxer has done that. In recent years he's been criticized in having an uber conservative strategy inside the ring. Utilizing his speed and quickness to not get hit, guard himself and pick his punches. A lot of people don't like it, but again, that shouldn't take anything away from the fact that he can make claim for the greatest boxer of all-time.

As Keyser Soze stated, the "Queen" name came from the haters. You proved his point with your response.

 

[VikingCat21]

I think I'm gonna head over to the football board and ask who was the best receiver all time, Rice or Moss.

Well that one is a no brainer. Moss all day and it's not even debatable! Haha

 

[BlueRunner11]

Everybody flops in the NBA. And it's infuriating as it is now taught to the players as a way to gain an advantage over the other team. Everything that LeBron does is measured, magnified and criticized more than any other player. The price of being the best player in the NBA during a time where we have the social media outlets and abilities to discuss every minor detail of a player. Reggie Miller is arguably the greatest three point shooter of all-time. I would say he, Ray Allen and Steph Curry can all make a case for that crown. Reggie's tactics to draw fouls and instigate his defender were painful to watch as an opposing fan. But that doesn't take anything away from his production. Floyd Mayweather is 50-0. No other boxer has done that. In recent years he's been criticized in having an uber conservative strategy inside the ring. Utilizing his speed and quickness to not get hit, guard himself and pick his punches. A lot of people don't like it, but again, that shouldn't take anything away from the fact that he can make claim for the greatest boxer of all-time.

As Keyser Soze stated, the "Queen" name came from the haters. You proved his point with your response.

Ahh the "everybody's doing it" defense. Well everybody isnt in the discussion for GOAT. And no, not everyone does do it. A GOAT shouldn't have to.

Everything you listed was techically "strategy." Unlikeable? Sure but its not cheating. Do you consider flopping, cheating?

 

[BlueRunner11]

My point is, what the hell does that have to do with the GOAT argument? Where was it defended or justified?

In this thread it has been.

Is flopping, cheating? Serious question.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Im not sure about all that. I can only speak for myself and it has more to do with how he plays the game. The whining, crying, flopping, etc...not characteristics of a GOAT imo. We make fun of Duke and others for the same stuff and rightfully so. Its an embarrassment to the game.

Always liked Kobe, but not the Lakers so that was my issue.

The whining and crying is why I always laugh about the Jordan defender argument. I was only a kid when he played and still noticed how much he went after the officials.

Difference is, when Jordan did it, it was because of his insane competitive fire and desire to win and how intense he was. LeBron apparently does it because he's an overgrown child.

Flopping is a cross-era comparison. It's like saying Allen Iverson got away with carrying so his handle isn't as good as Bob Cousy. That's the way the game is played, and when you're 265 pounds you have to sell the contact or it never gets called. If LeBron were able to push off on offense or grab on defense the way Jordan did, he'd be even more unstoppable. Different eras.

We make fun of Duke because they slap the floor and get all the calls by flopping. LeBron mostly accentuates real contact in order to ensure there's a whistle. SGA did it all year with the head jerk. No one had a problem with it then.

 

[Wall2Wall]

Ahh the "everybody's doing it" defense. Well everybody isnt in the discussion for GOAT. And no, not everyone does do it. A GOAT shouldn't have to.

Everything you listed was techically "strategy." Unlikeable? Sure but its not cheating. Do you consider flopping, cheating?

Not everyone is in the discussion for being the greatest of all-time. But we're not talking PED's here. LeBron utilizes a tactic that is part of today's game more than it was a generation or so ago. It's been a part of the evolution of the league. Good or bad, that's what it is. Jordan played in an era where the three point line existed. Different from a time when Bill Russell played. Should we complain that Jordan had an unfair advantage with a new rule benefiting the offensive side of the game?

Also, I'm not sure how old you are or how much of Jordan's career you watched but that guy got his share of calls and then some. It comes with the territory when you are at the top. Favoritism always follows the most skilled and most attractive.

Flopping is not cheating. It's annoying, but it's not cheating. Now when a guy pulls a Chris Smith and acts like someone shot him in the face with a canon only for the replay to show that there wasn't even physical contact, then yeah the refs should have the right to penalize the player. LeBron flops (again, just like that vast majority of the league) but falling to draw a charge or exaggerating on a forearm push isn't the end of the world and shouldn't disqualify one from being considered the best in history. Only an opinion, just different from yours.

 

[FrankUnderwood]

I love Lebron!

 

[BlueRunner11]

Ok guys, explain this to me?

Tell me this is part of the game. Tell me Jordan did this. No way. Lebron has done tons of chit like this over the years. A simple google search will give you dozens of these.

Tell me this isnt embarrassing for the game or any player let alone someone in the GOAT talks. Thats all Im saying. Call me a hater, ok. For me personally, the constant wwe act tarnishes things for me.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Looks like he takes a forearm to the face and throws himself back to guarantee that it's called.

It also looks like (is that Corey Joseph?) tries to do the same thing except he's the guy who threw it.

If that's the environment you're operating in, and you're the biggest and strongest guy who is taking the most hits, you have to sell it or you're hurting yourself and your team.

Is accentuating real contact more or less of an advantage than pushing off to win a championship? What about playing perimeter defense with both hands on the ballhandler?

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

Ok guys, explain this to me?

Tell me this is part of the game. Tell me Jordan did this. No way. Lebron has done tons of chit like this over the years. A simple google search will give you dozens of these.

Tell me this isnt embarrassing for the game or any player let alone someone in the GOAT talks. Thats all Im saying. Call me a hater, ok. For me personally, the constant wwe act tarnishes things for me.

Jordan never flopped, not once ever, hes the bestest.

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

Plus he owns Indiana.

 

[KingOfBBN]

In this thread it has been.

Is flopping, cheating? Serious question.

I think it is. Intentionally misleading an official to act like something has occurred that hasn't to hurt the opponent and benefit you? Yeah, I'd call that cheating. Unfortunately, this garbage has become rampant in basketball. Why? International influence, maybe? I don't know. But it's about as bad as soccer.

 

[KingOfBBN]

The biggest reason people don't like LeBron is because he's the challenger to the throne they worship. They did it to Kobe until it was clear he would fall short, then those same people loved Kobe for all of the ways he's similar to MJ.

I hated Kobe. That guy was like the bag cereal version of MJ. And in all five of his titles, he needed a premier big man to make it happen. The Lakers won their first three titles because of Shaq's dominance. No one could stop him and the numbers show that. Kobe went from being a mediocre team in the west to going to three NBA Finals in a row when they got Gasol. So he's definitely behind Lebron, in my opinion.

It's a little more complicated to people disliking Lebron more than "he's a threat to MJ." He has had to operate with the 24/7 media cycle, which makes it really easy to hate an athlete/celeb. Then you had "The Decision" and the "not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six..." comments, super teams which a lot of people hate because it decreased parity even more, then unlike MJ (and this is a big one overlooked), he gets involved in the political arena. MJ never did this.

 

[BlueRunner11]

Jordan never flopped, not once ever, hes the bestest.

View embedded media

Weak comparison. I watched 3x and still dont see anything. Looked like he got hit idk.

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

Yes, the Western conference was pretty balanced back in the 90s- Jazz, Rockets, Suns, Spurs, Sonics, all had their stars and were competitive; not loaded.

Irving's shot won him a championship so I'd be a little more generous in the description of Irving.

Ray Allen's shot saved Lebron as well in his second championship. In reality, the only title where he was clearly the man was 2012.

Lebron certainly played with more talent than MJ did.
MJ- 91-93 run- Pippen, Grant
MJ 96-98- Pippen, Rodman (Kukoc produced offensively but never made an All-Star Game)
Bron-12, 13- Bosh, Wade, Allen
Bron 15-Irving, Love, Thompson- that's three top pick fives to go along with Lebron (#1 in 2003).

Lebron is great. I think he's top two or three probably ever but the attempts to put him above MJ are ridiculous.

Did you just say that the only championship that LeBron was clearly the man was when his team beat the Thunder? Did you really just say that???

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

Irrelevant. Look at these gifs. 44 total of Lebron flops. Some funny chit. If anything, this nonsense seperates Jordan from her majesty. Embarrassing really.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=302139

You gotta get that hate out of your heart my man, it's really sad.

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

I hated Kobe. That guy was like the bag cereal version of MJ. And in all five of his titles, he needed a premier big man to make it happen. The Lakers won their first three titles because of Shaq's dominance. No one could stop him and the numbers show that. Kobe went from being a mediocre team in the west to going to three NBA Finals in a row when they got Gasol. So he's definitely behind Lebron, in my opinion.

It's a little more complicated to people disliking Lebron more than "he's a threat to MJ." He has had to operate with the 24/7 media cycle, which makes it really easy to hate an athlete/celeb. Then you had "The Decision" and the "not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six..." comments, super teams which a lot of people hate because it decreased parity even more, then unlike MJ (and this is a big one overlooked), he gets involved in the political arena. MJ never did this.

I really think if come together and play as a team, we can win multiple championships. Not one, not two, not three, not four, not five, not six, not seven... while laughing at a rally for Heat fans. This makes haters screaming mad just to be clear what were dealing with here. That level of hater.

 

[RondoBaller21]

Couldn't disagree more. Beyond "sports hate" I don't see how anyone can hate on the guy. He's about as inoffensive and role model worthy as possible for a GOAT candidate.

A guy that calls himself “king James” shows he’s a really cocky and arrogant person. Who the hell calls themselves a king when they’re not a king ha.

 

[Montana81]

I think I'm gonna head over to the football board and ask who was the best receiver all time, Rice or Moss.

Queen James came from haters man. You're using flopping in an argument about the greatest player ever, that's ridiculous.

Calvin Johnson. Dude spent his whole career with Matt Stafford and the Detroit Lions and still managed to stand out.

 

[Montana81]

Jordan didn't have to flop. In the second half of his career he got calls like no other. Hence the term "the Jordan whistle" or "Jordan calls". Guys breathed on him at times and it was a foul.

 

[BlueRunner11]

You gotta get that hate out of your heart my man, it's really sad.

No hate. My team will have no problem with the Cavs. Just saying he flops around like 110lb european soccer player. If thats what you like, keep being a fanboy.

 

[KingOfBBN]

Did you just say that the only championship that LeBron was clearly the man was when his team beat the Thunder? Did you really just say that???

Is it really that difficult to see that I meant it was the only championship where he didn’t need late-game heroics from someone else to save him? I was referring to Allen and Kyrie not the entire series.

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

Is it really that difficult to see that I meant it was the only championship where he didn’t need late-game heroics from someone else to save him? I was referring to Allen and Kyrie not the entire series.

So when Robert Horry saved the Lakers from going down 3-1 to the Kings in 2001, that meant that Shaq and Kobe weren't the men on that team? So when Paxson and Kerr hit the game winning jumpers in the finals with the Bulls, that means that Michael Jordan wasn't the man on both of those teams, your argument is ridiculous but if you're trolling, I give you 2 thumbs up.

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

No hate. My team will have no problem with the Cavs. Just saying he flops around like 110lb european soccer player. If thats what you like, keep being a fanboy.

I'm guessing you're a new Warriors or Rockets fan? Hating one player the way you do just makes you look silly, literally the entire NBA flops but you only single out LeBron because you have hate in your heart, it's sad.

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

This is one of those arguments where you either believe A or B and there is no way anyone will be able to convince you otherwise. It's fun to argue, but also pointless. Both players are all time greats and cases can be made for both as to being the best ever. For me personally it will always be Jordan as the GOAT. The 6 for 6 in Finals appearances and overall killer attitude vs the whining and flopping for LeBron is what makes a difference for me, but that's my personal opinion.

Nobody whined more than Jordan, that's a fact, but to most Jordan is God and never lost a game.

 

[BlueRunner11]

I'm guessing you're a new Warriors or Rockets fan? Hating one player the way you do just makes you look silly, literally the entire NBA flops but you only single out LeBron because you have hate in your heart, it's sad.

Google biggest floppers in NBA and get back to me.

No, whats sad and I have no idea if youre even a UK fan but if you are...I bet you go apechit when other players do it against UK...especially the UCONN games in the final four. Does that make you a hater?? Just be consistent Is all.

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

Google biggest floppers in NBA and get back to me.

No, whats sad and I have no idea if youre even a UK fan but if you are...I bet you go apechit when other players do it against UK...especially the UCONN games in the final four. Does that make you a hater?? Just be consistent Is all.

I hate flopping period, I don't like when anybody does it, but your problem is that you are singling out LeBron for doing it when literally every player in the NBA flops, every single one. You can't compare Jordan and his "non flopping" because flopping wasn't apart of that era, Jordan would throw his head back just like everyone else if he felt contact, if he played in this era, just the way it is now.

 

[KingOfBBN]

So when Robert Horry saved the Lakers from going down 3-1 to the Kings in 2001, that meant that Shaq and Kobe weren't the men on that team? So when Paxson and Kerr hit the game winning jumpers in the finals with the Bulls, that means that Michael Jordan wasn't the man on both of those teams, your argument is ridiculous but if you're trolling, I give you 2 thumbs up.

No one said Lebron wasn’t the guy, I’m pointing out how he needed saved to avoid losing those titles. These are things that get brought up when just evaluating if a player was the GOAT. So here’s my response to your other points.

A) That was the WCF and the officials rooked Sacramento.

B) Paxon’s nor Kerr’s shots were to avoid elimination. In both of those series, Chicago was up 3-2.

The fact is, Lebron is two shots away from only having one title. MJ? We have no idea what happens in Game 7 but even if he were to lose them, he’d still have four titles.

This is just analyzing every aspect of Lebron and MJ so what do you have issue with? I’ve said Lebron is probably the second or third greatest ever. Do you think he’s better than MJ? What exactly is your argument?

 

[Cowboys&Wildcats]

No one said Lebron wasn’t the guy, I’m pointing out how he needed saved to avoid losing those titles. These are things that get brought up when just evaluating if a player was the GOAT. So here’s my response to your other points.

A) That was the WCF and the officials rooked Sacramento.

B) Paxon’s nor Kerr’s shots were to avoid elimination. In both of those series, Chicago was up 3-2.

The fact is, Lebron is two shots away from only having one title. MJ? We have no idea what happens in Game 7 but even if he were to lose them, he’d still have four titles.

This is just analyzing every aspect of Lebron and MJ so what do you have issue with? I’ve said Lebron is probably the second or third greatest ever. Do you think he’s better than MJ? What exactly is your argument?

I don't take issue with anyone who says MJ>LeBron, or LeBron>MJ, I take issue with people who use ridiculous arguments to slight one of the two in order to boost the argument for the other. Often times, LeBron is the one who is slighted because people are still worshipping MJ. Your argument that because Ray Allen did his job by making a clutch three should taint LeBron's ring is absurd. Your argument that because Kyrie made that clutch 3 taints LeBron's ring that year is even more absurd because the game was tied before Kyrie knocked down that 3. I don't care who anyone think is the greatest because it can never really be proven, I'm content and happy with the fact that I was alive and was old enough to see both of these great players, and I appreciate both of them.

 

[~Keyser Soze~]

No one said Lebron wasn’t the guy, I’m pointing out how he needed saved to avoid losing those titles. These are things that get brought up when just evaluating if a player was the GOAT. So here’s my response to your other points.

A) That was the WCF and the officials rooked Sacramento.

B) Paxon’s nor Kerr’s shots were to avoid elimination. In both of those series, Chicago was up 3-2.

The fact is, Lebron is two shots away from only having one title. MJ? We have no idea what happens in Game 7 but even if he were to lose them, he’d still have four titles.

This is just analyzing every aspect of Lebron and MJ so what do you have issue with? I’ve said Lebron is probably the second or third greatest ever. Do you think he’s better than MJ? What exactly is your argument?

It's a team sport, everyone who has ever won a title needed help from someone. Hell, Jordan never won a playoff series without Pippen. He was 0-3 in 1st round series with 2 sweeps and a 3-1 loss.