Forde & Thamel: Is Zion Williamson the new Cam Newton? Why Duke's star could face eligibility issues

[anon_9qtxg60vqzy0y]

Conversation between Coach K and Mark Emmert:

Emmert: Sorry to bother you Coach K but I’m catching heat up here in Indy on this Zion Williamson deal.

K: And?

Emmert: Well, I, uh hate to ask but is there, uh anything to this?

K: Step the f**k off

Emmert: What do I tell the media?

K: One word: CALIPARI

Emmert: Will do Sir!

 

[Mojocat]

Did the U6 penalties change your mind? I recall you making the case that the banners would stay.

Did I? Honestly don’t recall. I don’t think I felt strongly either way, though I suspected they wouldn’t take a banner since they never had. I’m not responsible for remembering anything I said more than 2 days ago. Heh

 

[morgousky]

Absolutely. Duke should have already gotten out ahead of it, because the delay between this trial and the NCAA actually taking action from the results of it could cost them an entire season down the line.



Agree completely. I'm just not ready to decry the NCAA and yada yada over this. There's plenty of other reason to do so, but we have to keep it case-by-case and there's not enough here yet.

Over the next several months, there's going to be a lot of allegations and chatter and name dropping. If the sheer mention of something is a public conviction, we're going to have a lot of egg on our faces. A sports agency had Bam's name on the books as taking money. That's a lot more concrete than a text conversation about Zion. Start a poll and see what the folks here think about the two.




They punished Memphis because Rose refused to cooperate and they inconsistently applied strict liability. Memphis was aware there could be an eligibility issue and played Rose anyway, but the NCAA being wrong in 2007 isn't going to hold much water in 2018. Expecting any type of precedent or consistency is a waste of time.

People confuse the Rose situation. In reality, Cal rolled the dice and ignored the letter. Which was the right thing to do if he believed Rose. Cal backed his guy and Memphis nor Cal were favorites by the NCAA. But he did ignore the letter.

However, the precedent set is something the NCAA can't live up to. The final four should be returned if Kansas, UNC, and anyone skates free after this is over. If I were a Memphis fan (hold on while I puke stomach acid) I would be screaming and protesting like Gonzo in a liberal arts class.

 

[martinsm30]

Absolutely. Duke should have already gotten out ahead of it, because the delay between this trial and the NCAA actually taking action from the results of it could cost them an entire season down the line.



Agree completely. I'm just not ready to decry the NCAA and yada yada over this. There's plenty of other reason to do so, but we have to keep it case-by-case and there's not enough here yet.

And if the NCAA ignores this? The school has already made a statement this is not an issue and the NCAA now lets the Universities do their own investigations so in Duke's view the investigation is complete. This tells me the NCAA will do no investigation.

Does this show the NCAA is basically just a tool of the schools to manage the business of athletics and a shield to keep the government and the press from poking too deeply into the business of college athletics?

 

[mapcatfan]

Wait, someone please explain this excerpt from the article to me. I wonder if I am understanding this correctly?

Duke was not penalized in the Magette situation because it was deemed they/Coach K didn’t know. I’ve read media and Duke fans say that’s where their situation differs with the Rose/Memphis incident. Memphis was warned while they were playing him that Rose was being investigated.

Is the attorney not saying that he warned Duke about Magette??



“...........Some pointed back 20 years ago, to when star Duke recruit Corey Maggette played as a freshman after accepting impermissible benefits from Kansas City AAU coach Myron Piggie, who went to prison for conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and failure to pay income taxes. Duke was cleared by the NCAA in 2004 in the Maggette case, which cited the school’s lack of knowledge of payments the player received prior to coming to school.

“The evidence that’s coming out in trial and the issues facing schools today are a virtual repeat of what we saw in the late 1990s [with Piggie],” said Stephen Hill, who prosecuted that case and is now a partner at Denton’s in Kansas City. “Our investigation found, and we shared with [Duke] and the athletic department as well as the basketball program, they were playing a player who’d been paid to play in basketball games. His amateur status, like those athletes being discussed in this trial, was severely threatened by the fact he had received payments to play and submitted a national letter of intent.”

 

[morgousky]

Wait, someone please explain this excerpt from the article to me. I wonder if I am understanding this correctly?

Duke was not penalized in the Magette situation because it was deemed they/Coach K didn’t know. I’ve read media and Duke fans say that’s where their situation differs with the Rose/Memphis incident. Memphis was warned while they were playing him that Rose was being investigated.

Is the attorney not saying that he warned Duke about Magette??



“...........Some pointed back 20 years ago, to when star Duke recruit Corey Maggette played as a freshman after accepting impermissible benefits from Kansas City AAU coach Myron Piggie, who went to prison for conspiracy to commit mail and wire fraud and failure to pay income taxes. Duke was cleared by the NCAA in 2004 in the Maggette case, which cited the school’s lack of knowledge of payments the player received prior to coming to school.

“The evidence that’s coming out in trial and the issues facing schools today are a virtual repeat of what we saw in the late 1990s [with Piggie],” said Stephen Hill, who prosecuted that case and is now a partner at Denton’s in Kansas City. “Our investigation found, and we shared with [Duke] and the athletic department as well as the basketball program, they were playing a player who’d been paid to play in basketball games. His amateur status, like those athletes being discussed in this trial, was severely threatened by the fact he had received payments to play and submitted a national letter of intent.”

The Rose test score was invalidated. So he was essentially made ineligible. The reason the NCAA took the banner was because they applied strict liability which, if you're Duke, has NEVER APPLIED. its even more reason to make them answer questions because that in and of itself shows blatant favoritism.

 

[mapcatfan]

The Rose test score was invalidated. So he was essentially made ineligible. The reason the NCAA took the banner was because they applied strict liability which, if you're Duke, has NEVER APPLIED. its even more reason to make them answer questions because that in and of itself shows blatant favoritism.

True.

Just wondered how they got away with claiming “we didn’t know”. The prosecuting attorney seems to debunk that.

 

[Cindog28]

“If [Williamson’s stepfather] solicited or received money from Kansas, he would be an agent under NCAA rules and his action would affect his son’s competition eligibility at Duke,” said Nebraska law professor Josephine Potuto, a member of the NCAA Committee on Infractions for many years."

“An agent’s activity on behalf of a prospect renders the prospect ineligible under NCAA amateurism rules,” Potuto said. “An amateurism violation affects an athlete at all NCAA schools. Amateurism violations are not dependent on where the athlete enrolls.”

Potuto cited the so-called Newton Rule, a bylaw passed by the NCAA in January 2012, in her explanation. But she included a caveat in relation to how she would view such a case if she were involved in a Committee on Infractions hearing on the matter."

A.) The NCAA has already said it will defer to the FBI's findings and will not do an independent investigation, so Duke declaring Zion eligible already is just smoke in a mirror. I bet the "right people" in Indianapolis probably got a big kick out of that one.

B.) This rule too could involve Bam, but the fact that "BAD LOAN" was written next to the name, "BAM", and did not list his legal name like others (plus my bias), than it makes me think UK is in the clear.

C.) I believe I read the same story about Chris Duhon several years ago nor were the Bagley's shy about their million dollar lifestyle either. I would also be interested to find out who would win a spelling contest between Zion, Duvall, and Darrell Arthur.

D.) News about Kansas gets worse everyday and it doesn't bother me.

E.) I bet Clemson is pissed.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I, for one, have not claimed Duke paid anybody. But I do think there's enough evidence here to investigate his eligibility and declare him ineligible until the investigation is over.

Duke definitely didn't pay anyone. Nike did.

I don't see how there isn't immediate investigation into his eligibility, given what we know. Then again, it's Duke. Duke got Bagley reclassed and eligible in record speed, despite phantom classes and Nike paying his family for years.

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

This is a conversation with an assistant. The bag man himself named us in a text to Self.

If we're believing the texts of crooks and cheaters let's go see what Rick Pitino thinks while we're at it.

I'm not saying Zion is clean. I'm saying I'm going to need more than a text from a scumbag before I start crying about how the NCAA never punishes Duke and saying it's cut and dry that Zion should be ineligible or that it's exactly like the Cam Newton situation.

But nobody reads anymore. Just take the headline and get real mad in whatever direction it takes you. Everyone make sure you vote in two weeks.

Why would the adidas guy lie to self about Zion wanting money and a house... and also jobs? This isn’t testimony .... this is a taped conversation when the two parties didn’t know they were being taped

 

[Wildcat-in-STL]

Conversation between Coach K and Mark Emmert:

Emmert: Sorry to bother you Coach K but I’m catching heat up here in Indy on this Zion Williamson deal.

K: And?

Emmert: Well, I, uh hate to ask but is there, uh anything to this?

K: Step the f**k off

Emmert: What do I tell the media?

K: One word: CALIPARI

Emmert: Will do Sir!

This is all bull crap.... the only sound Emmert would make is slurping on his knees

 

[dukesuxone]

zeit·geist
/ˈtsītˌɡīst,ˈzītˌɡīst/
noun
the defining spirit or mood of a particular period of history as shown by the ideas and beliefs of the time.

Word of the day. All of you that are cock-sure Duke and Kansas are gong to get off scot free...that’s fear, and disgust, and honestly a deserved lack of faith in the NCAA. But I’m telling you, we are in the middle of a cultural moment. Politics, sports, all of it. The idea that elites should somehow get away with something others would not, doesn’t match the zeitgeist of this era. Plus the NCAA genuinely fears extinction, coming out of this my bet is it will correctly understand it’s under a microscope and that it has something to prove. Letting either Duke or KU “get away” with something just won’t do. I think KU is in real danger, and Duke is in some trouble too.....

I see nothing happening to either Duke or Kansas. I honestly have little faith in the NCAA doing anything.

 

[morgousky]

Duke definitely didn't pay anyone. Nike did.

I don't see how there isn't immediate investigation into his eligibility, given what we know. Then again, it's Duke. Duke got Bagley reclassed and eligible in record speed, despite phantom classes and Nike paying his family for years.

I dont think you can say that for sure. K has a huge ego and thinks hes untouchable. He didn't make the call, but I could easily see Capel setting it up.

 

[RipThru]

It gives me some comfort that the NCAA’s hand may be forced in part by the recent news about the G-League. The NCAA is crooked, but are they stupid? They have to know that their entire organization is at a crossroads, right?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I dont think you can say that for sure. K has a huge ego and thinks hes untouchable. He didn't make the call, but I could easily see Capel setting it up.

Duke definitely played their part in kids getting paid. They just didn't do it. Only because they didn't have to. Nike did it for them.

 

[CatfanMike47]

Duke definitely played their part in kids getting paid. They just didn't do it. Only because they didn't have to. Nike did it for them.

You can bet they had a hand in navigating the details.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

You can bet they had a hand in navigating the details.

Absolutely. No doubt in my mind. Look no further than Bagley. Nike paid them millions over years. He was a duke lock his entire high school recruitment. Not a coincidence

 

[GonzoCat90]

Why would the adidas guy lie to self about Zion wanting money and a house... and also jobs? This isn’t testimony .... this is a taped conversation when the two parties didn’t know they were being taped

Scum bags lie for all kinds of reasons. Maybe it was to give himself an out for not being able to deliver Zion, who had been heavy with adidas for years before switching to Nike at the last minute.

My point isn't that Zion is innocent. I believe the conversation and I believe his dad was asking for those things. I'm just saying that we either require more proof than that to act or we're guilty too.

 

[morgousky]

Scum bags lie for all kinds of reasons. Maybe it was to give himself an out for not being able to deliver Zion, who had been heavy with adidas for years before switching to Nike at the last minute.

My point isn't that Zion is innocent. I believe the conversation and I believe his dad was asking for those things. I'm just saying that we either require more proof than that to act or we're guilty too.

I dont see how we'd be guilty too? Why?

 

[Cali-Hawk]

I wonder if Kansas goes down they'll give over evidence of Zion and take Duke with them.

You think Kansas kept records of players they were considering paying?

 

[BBUK]

I dont see how we'd be guilty too? Why?

Because...

 

[Cindog28]

Because...

Thanks for taking up for me earlier.

 

[BBUK]

Thanks for taking up for me earlier.

I wish I could meet scuzz like that in person. I can take a whole lot but that kind of stuff, not for a second. On the internet or in person.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I dont see how we'd be guilty too? Why?

Because if you're guilty because a Kansas/adidas guy said so in a text message, then Gassnola saying we cheat and Andy Miller having Bam's name on a ledger is just as good.

I feel like I've said this at least ten times in this thread.

 

[Cindog28]

But Edrice Adebayo isn't listed on the ledger. It says, "BAM- BAD LOAN."

Does not say "bad loan" next to anyone else's name.

 

[Nooneputsbabyinacorner]

zeit·geist
/ˈtsītˌɡīst,ˈzītˌɡīst/
noun
the defining spirit or mood of a particular period of history as shown by the ideas and beliefs of the time.

Word of the day. All of you that are cock-sure Duke and Kansas are gong to get off scot free...that’s fear, and disgust, and honestly a deserved lack of faith in the NCAA. But I’m telling you, we are in the middle of a cultural moment. Politics, sports, all of it. The idea that elites should somehow get away with something others would not, doesn’t match the zeitgeist of this era. Plus the NCAA genuinely fears extinction, coming out of this my bet is it will correctly understand it’s under a microscope and that it has something to prove. Letting either Duke or KU “get away” with something just won’t do. I think KU is in real danger, and Duke is in some trouble too.....

Prepare to be disappointed.

 

[Nooneputsbabyinacorner]

You don't see the difference? He named us with no actual contact with anybody from UK. Self actually texted with these people.

Go read the full transcripts of the texts tweeted by click bait Wetzel.

 

[Nooneputsbabyinacorner]

I see nothing happening to either Duke or Kansas. I honestly have little faith in the NCAA doing anything.

You want the NCAA to punish an innocent program?

 

[docholiday51]

You want the NCAA to punish an innocent program?

Hell they couldn't find an innocent program if their life depended on it.KU and Duke are far,far,far from innocent.You can argue the point till Self grows a new head of hair but it doesn't make it any more truthful than it did from the start of your argument.

 

[GonzoCat90]

But Edrice Adebayo isn't listed on the ledger. It says, "BAM- BAD LOAN."

Does not say "bad loan" next to anyone else's name.

I can't be any more clear. The particular innocence or guilt isn't the point.

 

[Aike]

I can't be any more clear. The particular innocence or guilt isn't the point.

I agree that we don’t KNOW Duke cheated in regard to Zion. You could just as easily argue that Zion was scared off of having his hand out because of the FBI scandal, and chose Duke because they are Duke.

But I’m fairly sure Nike bought and delivered Bagley to Duke last year.

Then there’s Lance Thomas. Corey Maggette.

I haven’t read this whole thread, and I’m not trying to jump into an argument. But I will say that it doesn’t have to be all one way or all another. I believe a lot of us here are sharp enough to make out some the shades of gray.

 

[docholiday51]

I agree that we don’t KNOW Duke cheated in regard to Zion. You could just as easily argue that Zion was scared off of having his hand out because of the FBI scandal, and chose Duke because they are Duke.

But I’m fairly sure Nike bought and delivered Bailey to Duke last year.

Then there’s Lance Thomas. Corey Maggette.

I haven’t read this whole thread, and I’m not trying to jump into an argument. But I will say that it doesn’t have to be all one way or all another. I believe a lot of us here are sharp enough to make out some the shades of gray.

You make a good point here,in the days of Thomas and Maggette Duke was protected by the NCAA at the same level as was UNC for whatever reason

The situation college basketball finds itself in today is different in that multiple schools need protection from what is happening with top talent and their handlers and parents. Zion could well have bolted to Duke in light of the FBI scare. If he did someone likely smarter than anyone in his camp set it in motion.

There are shades of gray all over the place here,so much so I begin to fear that the NCAA will try to string the whole thing out until the end of OAD as we know it,with the top players by-passing college altogether

It seems to me that any player who took money(or whose family took money) should not play in college in the upcoming season. Honestly it may be too big of a task for the NCAA to figure out what happened in that regard in the past 2 or 3 years.

If the NCAA punishes UL for Bowen I don't see how they can let KU slide for Preston and de Sousa,that leaves Zion in the gray area.

The NCAA should make a decision on any player who still has college eligibility remaining,even if that decision is merely to advise the colleges involved that if they play said player they are at risk to forfeit games.

 

[Nooneputsbabyinacorner]

You make a good point here,in the days of Thomas and Maggette Duke was protected by the NCAA at the same level as was UNC for whatever reason

The situation college basketball finds itself in today is different in that multiple schools need protection from what is happening with top talent and their handlers and parents. Zion could well have bolted to Duke in light of the FBI scare. If he did someone likely smarter than anyone in his camp set it in motion.

There are shades of gray all over the place here,so much so I begin to fear that the NCAA will try to string the whole thing out until the end of OAD as we know it,with the top players by-passing college altogether

It seems to me that any player who took money(or whose family took money) should not play in college in the upcoming season. Honestly it may be too big of a task for the NCAA to figure out what happened in that regard in the past 2 or 3 years.

If the NCAA punishes UL for Bowen I don't see how they can let KU slide for Preston and de Sousa,that leaves Zion in the gray area.

The NCAA should make a decision on any player who still has college eligibility remaining,even if that decision is merely to advise the colleges involved that if they play said player they are at risk to forfeit games.

If the NCAA did that to only those who have been named in this trial, there would be thousands more who got paid and would be playing this upcoming season at most school - except for Kentucky, of course, because what goes on between agents and shoe companies and high school recruit's handlers only happens with other school's players.

 

[Aike]

If the NCAA did that to only those who have been named in this trial, there would be thousands more who got paid and would be playing this upcoming season at most school - except for Kentucky, of course, because what goes on between agents and shoe companies and high school recruit's handlers only happens with other school's players.

You really have no business over here trying to throw dirt on Kentucky when your team and coach are literally buried in filth.

Being a homer is one thing, but you don’t have to be a complete joke.

 

[Nooneputsbabyinacorner]

You really have no business over here trying to throw dirt on Kentucky when your team and coach are literally buried in filth.

Being a homer is one thing, but you don’t have to be a complete joke.

My position has always been that the coaches are clean. They all know what's happening (it's not a huge secret) with agents and shoe companies, but they do not participate (hand money to players or tell someone to pay a player). I was poking fun at those who feel that Kentucky doesn't benefit from the same system of agents and shoe companies like every other program in the NCAA does.

Throwing dirt at Kentucky would be saying Kentucky pays players. I know that is not true, just like I know that Kansas does not pay players.

 

[mapcatfan]

My position has always been that the coaches are clean. They all know what's happening (it's not a huge secret) with agents and shoe companies, but they do not participate (hand money to players or tell someone to pay a player). I was poking fun at those who feel that Kentucky doesn't benefit from the same system of agents and shoe companies like every other program in the NCAA does.

Throwing dirt at Kentucky would be saying Kentucky pays players. I know that is not true, just like I know that Kansas does not pay players.

Most Kansas fans sound just like the UNC fans they derided. “If my school is guilty then everyone else must be.”

So the recorded conversation between Townsend and Code was completely innocent?

 

[Nooneputsbabyinacorner]

Most Kansas fans sound just like the UNC fans they derided. “If my school is guilty then everyone else must be.

So the recoded conversation between Townsend and Code was completely innocent?

Fake classes are much different than shoe company and agent steering kids to schools to protect their investment. One is clearly isolated. The other is a pervasive issue in basketball and football.

 

[DonkeyDwayne]

https://sports.yahoo.com/zion-willi...face-eligibility-issues-season-210307389.html

Here is the problem with these kind of reports. Either believe all of them or believe none. But keep in mind Kentucky players have been mentioned as being too high priced as well.
Just can’t gave it both ways unless you want to just see negative everywhere.

 

[K-Town Kat]

Literally my two most hated writers team up to go after Zion and Duke. I’ll give credit where it’s due, but they’re both still douchebags.

If they decide to go all-in on the Dukies, I'll send them a Christmas card and gift basket.

 

[DonkeyDwayne]

This is a conversation with an assistant. The bag man himself named us in a text to Self.

If we're believing the texts of crooks and cheaters let's go see what Rick Pitino thinks while we're at it.

I'm not saying Zion is clean. I'm saying I'm going to need more than a text from a scumbag before I start crying about how the NCAA never punishes Duke and saying it's cut and dry that Zion should be ineligible or that it's exactly like the Cam Newton situation.

But nobody reads anymore. Just take the headline and get real mad in whatever direction it takes you. Everyone make sure you vote in two weeks.

That is the issue when people jump to believe any/everything posted. We cannot pick and choose the parts of texts.