I agree it would not have boded well for cal had Wagner gone elsewhere, Louisville specifically but that doesn’t mean Wagner gets minutes regardless of production. I think we all expected Wagner to be better than he has been. He started to live up to the hype for a small stretch but has since regressed. Giving him as many minutes as Dillingham at this stage is incomprehensible. Other players have to earn their minutes while some are automatically granted minutes regardless.
Cal's NEW One-And-Done: Top 3 recruits on the bench to end the game.
- Thread starter catben
- Start date
I still have no clue what you are trying to say. Do you expect Cal to pull offers to next year's highly rated recruits now that he sat DJ, Edwards, and Bradshaw down the stretch? Do you think other coaches wouldn't have taken those three if they wanted to go elsewhere?
All year long people have complained about DJ and Edwards getting too much time and now that he sat them in crunch time you're still mad?
WOW!!!
You REALLY can't see the point I am making???? Why did it take him 26 games to figure it out when all of us "Basketball Benny's" knew it 5 games into the season.
Cal is using an OUTDATED roster building model that hasn't produced the results desired in 4 years. I was just pointing that out with what he did last night. It is just showing how different the game is now and Cal's approach is not getting the results we ALL desire.
Plus, Cal himself realizes this, yet he is so stubborn that he will continue to do things the way he has for 14 seasons, results be darned.
So, do you have faith that next year's recruiting class will give UK the same results as what we saw in those first 8 seasons????
I am ELATED that Cal FINALLY played the correct lineup to end the game. But do you think that same lineup will be the starters for the next game?????
I'm the first to admit that the worst season of my lifetime (Boston, Askew, Clarke), followed by the worst loss of my lifetime, is a bad cocktail that makes it easy for me to get amnesia about 2017 & 2019.
I promise I'm not a Cal apologist. I'm getting Cal fatigue and I'm getting more tired of him by the week. The "Swaggy Cal is great" crowd thinks I'm anti-Cal. The "Cal is Terrible" crowd thinks I'm a sunshine pumper. I do think many fans let their emotions (good & bad) cause them to see ONLY what they want to see.
My responses to your points are in your post.
My OP was actually comparing Cal’s top 3 ranked recruits to those that we had his first 8 seasons to show how far we have fallen because todays recruits are not good enough to get UK to a championship level.
It was NOT questioning why they weren’t in the game, it was pointing out that they weren’t because Cal knows they aren’t good enough.
Cal’s top 2 recruits WERE in the game. They just weren’t ranked by recruiting services.
I personally think fans put too much stock in online services. First, they’re projecting out into a high school player’s future rather than his current play. AB MAY develop a great jump shot over the next 2-3 years. If so, he can become a player like Nick Richards. You and I know that won’t help UK one bit and there’s a low chance he’s here if/when that ever happens. Wagner will probably develop a consistent jump shot, but again it’s not going to happen in a UK Jersey. (Ex- Julius Randle developed a respectable jump shot, but he’d break a backboard shooting 3’s if he’d tried that at UK. He could just play bully ball when he was here.)
I never expect much from big men coming out of hs. I’ve seen that scenario play out too many times. Towns may have been our last dominant freshman big man. (I’m sure I’m forgetting someone.). Fact is, I don’t know of any big men we missed on that dominated college ball. Lively at Duke, Wiseman, other guy that went to Memphis, etc … none of them did much in college. (I’m getting older and I may be missing someone.)
This is where we probably agree. I would be happy recruiting big men who are 3-4 yr players (like Ugo) then trying to bring in the best guards and wings. I don’t think Holland would have helped this team much. College basketball seems to be about strength around the rim (upper classmen) and shooting.
The thing that makes me nervous about some recruits for next year is the old “he’s athletic, but needs to work on his shot!” That’s a nice way of saying he can dunk on high school players but he can’t throw it in the ocean.
Hmm 🤔. Wouldn’t you be complaining (rightfully so) if those 3 were all on the floor those last 20 seconds.
Ok. But they were just as highly rated recruits. So to me that says either that Wall/Cousins class was atypically elite, or this class was not very good (you can’t blame that on any college coach), or all the scouting services have gotten significantly worse.
I'll for sure take Cyril over Bradshaw. That will be a freshman that can not be pushed around.
Not sure, but I think what he's trying to say is that the best players shouldn't be spending the first 4 minutes of every half riding the dang pine. That's 8 minutes a game our 2nd rate players are losing the game while our best players watch in warmups.
YEP
And Cal proved last night that he KNOWS who should play the most, but he chooses to give his inferior, higher rated recruits MORE time than he should.
Not the "scouting services" but the so called TOP players themselves.
You do realize that it's been 14 years since Wall and Boogie and 12 since Davis and MKG. Freshmen players today are NO WHERE near as good as the OAD's from Cal's early years.
So my point is WHY build your roster around OAD kids that aren't CAPABLE of winning at a championship level????
I have a theory about late game losses with NBA talent. I need to be careful about how I word it so it isn't misunderstood. But here goes.
When Cal was at UMass and Memphis he was able to get talented players like DRose and Camby but they usually came with some sort of baggage that allowed them to fall to a 2nd tier school. But because of their backgrounds they often came in angry and hungry. Larry Bird was like that. He went to IU first but moved quickly to ISU. And he was hungry and angry.
As an IU fan I remember Kelvin Sampson brought the same sort of player to IU as he was rebuilding the brand. We he got the boot the first thing Crean did was toss out the baggage and IU has yet to recover.
Pitino did the same at UL as Kelvin did at IU
When Cal came to UK the program was also diminished from Billy Clyde and others. And so the guys he brought at first often had baggage. Think Bledsoe and Boogie. Now though he gets not only quality athletes he gets the ones with sterling reputations. How often do you hear fans say "I like this team. they're talented and they are all great kids"
That is awesome but sometimes those guys aren't hungry or angry. Think of Wagner raised in an NBA family.
So my observation has always been that in the final two minutes of a close game some kids (the hungry, intense ones) will go from 60% at the foul line to 80%, while others go from 80 to 60. Again as an IU fan the only FTs I remember Alford ever missing were at the end of a game
I am not saying that when you get the pick of the litter you don't take the talented kid who isn't likely to end up on somewhere you don't want. But if you can help mold those hungry guys they will likely be the ones ready to go at the end of a tough battle.
When Cal was at UMass and Memphis he was able to get talented players like DRose and Camby but they usually came with some sort of baggage that allowed them to fall to a 2nd tier school. But because of their backgrounds they often came in angry and hungry. Larry Bird was like that. He went to IU first but moved quickly to ISU. And he was hungry and angry.
As an IU fan I remember Kelvin Sampson brought the same sort of player to IU as he was rebuilding the brand. We he got the boot the first thing Crean did was toss out the baggage and IU has yet to recover.
Pitino did the same at UL as Kelvin did at IU
When Cal came to UK the program was also diminished from Billy Clyde and others. And so the guys he brought at first often had baggage. Think Bledsoe and Boogie. Now though he gets not only quality athletes he gets the ones with sterling reputations. How often do you hear fans say "I like this team. they're talented and they are all great kids"
That is awesome but sometimes those guys aren't hungry or angry. Think of Wagner raised in an NBA family.
So my observation has always been that in the final two minutes of a close game some kids (the hungry, intense ones) will go from 60% at the foul line to 80%, while others go from 80 to 60. Again as an IU fan the only FTs I remember Alford ever missing were at the end of a game
I am not saying that when you get the pick of the litter you don't take the talented kid who isn't likely to end up on somewhere you don't want. But if you can help mold those hungry guys they will likely be the ones ready to go at the end of a tough battle.
So many people didn't read the OP and then posted long screeds demonstrating that they didn't understand his point. LOL
Wheeler last year - 7.7 ppg, 41% FG, 35% 3PT, 5.6 AST
DJ this year - 10.5 PPG, 41% FG, 27% 3PT, 3.4 AST
Debatable but you could make the argument Wheeler is slightly more reliable. And DJ is trending down in FG% lately. His peak was weeks ago.
That’s not what he said. He specifically complained about Bradshaw, Wagner and Edwards not being in the game. Makes zero sense unless it’s a complaint about the higher ranked players not being on the court. Which is dumb.
I took that as sarcasm and pointing out that, despite their star rankings and being starters, Cal had them on the bench when it mattered....because they just aren't very good and he knows it.
Could be. I didn’t read it that way. Whatever. This place is swirling the drain faster than the program.
NO I DID NOT!!!!
If you would read the posts that I have made in this thread you would see that I was ACTUALLY saying the OPPOSITE!!!
I was just pointing out that even Cal himself was ADMITTING that his top 3 rated recruits were NOT as good as Reed and Rob and Adou by not having them in the game during crunch time!!!!!
If the top 3 recruits in Cal's OAD class aren't good enough to be in a 1 point game for the final 20 seconds, then he needs to CHANGE his roster building model!!!!
Reed and Rob are WAAAAAAAAYYYYYYY better than DJ and Justin, that was my point. How you read that to mean anything else is CRAZY!!!!
YEP
It was an indictment on Cal's OAD model because the top rated recruits aren't even good enough to be in a tight game much less win at a championship level anymore.
And if it weren't for Reed and Rob playing ABOVE their ranking and Reeves having an All-American season, we may be looking at another 9-16 season.
Cal is the problem here!!!!
Your next to last sentence is waaaaay to accurate in describing what could have been this year.
You were being sarcastic.
Now you’re being dramatic.
—————-
Wagner, Edwards and Bradshaw, our top 3 recruits coming into this year were ALL riding the pine those last 20 seconds!!!
That's how far down Cal's roster building has fallen. Can you imagine Wall, Boogie, Bledsoe, Knight, Jones, Lamb, Davis, MKG, Nerlens, Randle, the Twins, KAT, Murray, Fox, Monk, Bam, PJ or Herro sitting the bench with a 1 point deficit at the end of a game????!!!!!!!
Add this to Cal's TOTAL lack of coaching and you get what we have had the last 4 seasons.
SAD
———
Just to be clear. Nowhere in that did you state what you state in your response.
I agree with your point about Reed and Rob. Thought you were f***ing drunk complaining about the other three being in the bench at the end of the game.
Look, I firmly believe these 3 are being controlled by whatever agency they are signed with. They play half-hearted through games like they're playing not to get hurt. I firmly believe they have been told to do so and have been told they're future in 8 months depends on them not getting hurt. Cal has made a deal with those sport agencies to not get them hurt and if they do get a small injury, the agency tells Cal how many games they sit or if they will play at all the rest of the season
Last edited:
But it's gotten to a point where those 3 NOT playing well is going to continue to expose them. They all 3 have fallen out of the Lottery and only Wagner is even projected to go LATE in the 1st round. The other 2 are 2nd round at best or not even expected to be drafted at all.
By not playing hard and better, they will be in the G league next season because like all of these kids Cal brings in now, they RARELY return for a Soph season, even though ALL of them would benefit from it.
He's more worried about making sure they're drafted, than he is trying to get the best lineup primed for a tourney run.
It's like his posts are designed to please both or confuse both sides of the argument.
Cal has created this problem. He can’t get hard nosed kids that want to fight and actually care. Those kids know they won’t play right away and will likely be recruited over. We are lucky Adou stuck around after last year. Everyone knew he should have played more last year but Cal had to play his babies like Livingston. So we get kids who don’t want to be in college and already have one foot out the door. Wagner, Edwards and Bradshaw are perfect examples of this. Edwards has gotten way too many minutes. DJ only cares about his stats and Bradshaw should never play over Z. Cal doesn’t care about UK, just promises.
If you read ALL of my posts or even one of my MANY responses in this thread it's more than CLEAR what I'm saying.
This ENTIRE thread was an INDICTMENT on Cal's OAD model now. How it is no longer a viable way to succeed in today's college basketball.
When your TOP 3 rated recruits are sitting on the bench in a 1 pt game with 20 seconds left, Cal is ADMITTING that they aren't good enough to win the game!!! I named the players from the first 8 seasons in the OP to SHOW how FAR the program has fallen because there is NO WAY Cal would leave ANY of those players on the bench in the same situation!!
Nothing "confusing" about my point.
While I agree with you the end result would not necessarily be pleasing. That player who has worked his ass of to develop into a solid player in 2-3 years will quickly transfer if he feels he is being recruited over. So depth, chemistry and other intangibles will come into play. I personally don’t know what the answer is and am pessimistic about the future, no matter who the coach is.
when they go the NBA combines, they will put themselves right back in the lottery
Yeah, I understand you’re right that the nuts and bolts of roster construction is not as simple as it might sound. I’m sure it takes a lot of planning, forecasting and convincing. But hasn’t that really always been the case? Coaches have always had to kind of be part-car salesmen and part father/authority figure.
But the one thing every coach I was ever around did was to try to bring in any player that could help him win at a higher rate. Then he would work to get all the players (new and returning) to buy-in to a common goal and meld together. You’re always probably going to lose some players – in the current environment that’s a given. But the better upperclassmen aren’t generally going to fear freshmen recruits if they know the competition will be based on production. Plus, it’s often a sophomore or junior who took off that pushes a senior into a solid backup role anyway (e.g., KD Johnson at Auburn). So, if the Senior is going to transfer, then there’s not much you can do about that. Plus, that’s when a good freshman can step into that backup role and hone his craft. And again, as I said, I don’t have any concern about (and actually hope for) losing OAD freshmen recruits who don’t want to compete with upperclassmen.
