Add John Clay (LH) to the Cal makes playing time promises to his Fr crowd

[JST390-2]

There’s still a chance Antonio Reeves could return once he completes summer course work at Illinois State to earn his degree. If Reeves instead transfers, that’s it. Without a late addition, UK would enter October practices with no juniors, no seniors and no one from the transfer portal.

Why? The reason is simple and has nothing to do with whether or not Kentucky is behind the times when it comes to name, image and likeness opportunities. To this point, no experienced player wants to come to Kentucky and sit behind Calipari’s No. 1-ranked group of stellar freshmen.

That’s especially true given Cal’s history. Some coaches are skittish about playing true freshmen. Cal isn’t one of them. He has no problem going all-in. In 2009-10, Cal’s first season, John Wall averaged 34.8 minutes per game; Eric Bledsoe 30.3; DeMarcus Cousins 23.5. Brandon Knight averaged 35.9, Terrence Jones 31.5 and Doron Lamb 28.4 on his 2010-11 Final Four team. Marquis Teague averaged 32.6, Anthony Davis 32.0 and Michael Kidd-Gilchrist 31.1 on his 2011-12 national title team.

The blueprint for the upcoming season figures to be the same, what with Calipari boasting three of 247Sports’ top 10 class of 2023 prospects, four of the top 20 and five of the top 50. Justin Edwards is currently at No. 3 nationally, followed by Aaron Bradshaw at No. 4, DJ Wagner at No. 6 and Robert Dillingham at No. 16. Reed Sheppard is at No. 41. Those players are going to play. They were going to play before both Oscar Tshiebwe and Chris Livingston left their names in Thursday’s NBA Draft and Reeves decided he would consider his options before deciding what jersey he wants to wear for his final college season.

Those in the know claim Cyril could be a steal. He could add needed frontcourt depth, especially considering sophomore Ugonna Onyenso’s inexperience — the 6-11 Nigerian played in 16 of 34 games last season — and Bradshaw’s health status. (Bradshaw might or might not have a broken foot.) Then again, Cyril would bring Calipari’s freshman total to eight, a large number even by his standards. Will it work? Only time will tell. The college landscape has changed drastically since Calipari’s one-and-done teams dominated the sport his first six years at Kentucky. Then again, he’s won big with impossibly young teams before. This time, he really doesn’t have a choice.

https://www.kentucky.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/john-clay/article276566991.html#storylink=cpy

 

[SemperFiCat]

So, when Cal said he had 'planned for everything', what he really meant was that 'everything is going as planned'. Super.

 

[Dead Cat Bounce]

IF Cal can harness the financial power of NIL, perhaps he won’t have to keep promising major recruits 38 minutes per game any more.

 

[UKBB4Ever]

That doesn't say that Cal makes promises. And no player that's ever played for Cal has said he was promised anything.

Cal is going to play the best players. These leftovers in the transfer portal know they aren't as good as the freshmen we have.

 

[UKBB4Ever]

IF Cal can harness the financial power of NIL, perhaps he won’t have to keep promising major recruits 38 minutes per game any more.

We have harnessed the NIL. And Cal has never promised any playing time or position to any player. Find one player that's ever said differently. Find one assistant coach that's ever said differently. Even rival recruiters don't use that made up story.

Only the CHC knows about these stories that didn't happen.

 

[Atrain7732]

Whether playing time is promised or not, it is crystal clear to anyone paying attention since Cal has been here he will lean towards potentially talented youngsters over proven talented experience. Right or wrong, that’s what he will do and everyone, esp the portal guys and Reeves, understand this very well.

I am not gonna judge the results before they happen this year. However, in my opinion, this is do or die for Cal. He has tripled down on the exclusive freshmen route when essentially all of college basketball has went another direction. If it works, he will be praised. If it fails miserably, he will be on the hot seat like he has never been before. As a UK fan, I hope it works. But, I’m skeptical at best.

 

[YardCat]

We have harnessed the NIL. And Cal has never promised any playing time or position to any player. Find one player that's ever said differently. Find one assistant coach that's ever said differently. Even rival recruiters don't use that made up story.

Only the CHC knows about these stories that didn't happen.

If we do find a player that said Cal promised him playing time or a position then what? I really don’t care if he sold his soul, he needs to win a lot of games or get out.

 

[JonathanW]

Except simple math shows there is room/minutes for a PF/C (4/5) given that we only have 2 guys there right now who between the 2 of them will play 44-60mpg (I estimate 52), leaving 20-36 mpg on the table.

Now I think Theiro can take some at the 4, he may have to, even though he’s not played the 4 before. Burks may have to as well, but any decent Vet would beat him out.

And there are minutes at the 2-3 (2G/SF) for a good shooter. Not convinced Sheppard will play much (unless we add no one else and he has to play). Yes Cal usually plays top 20 rated recruits, but recruits rated 20-50 have had very mixed results in mpg.

 

[bnewt]

So, when Cal said he had 'planned for everything', what he really meant was that 'everything is going as planned'. Super.

Exactly, because there is no plan
just another used car salesman sotry

 

[bnewt]

That doesn't say that Cal makes promises. And no player that's ever played for Cal has said he was promised anything.

Cal is going to play the best players. These leftovers in the transfer portal know they aren't as good as the freshmen we have.

that is not true, he does not play the best players
he plays his favorites & his 5* kids regardless of how they are playing
if a kid plays a good game, ccc says he has to get that kid more time & then he forgets he is on the bench the rest of the year

 

[Dead Cat Bounce]

And Cal has never promised any playing time or position to any player.

I don’t believe this, and comparatively speaking, I am a Cal defender.

Cal is going to play the best players.

Except that he often hasn’t. From my perspective, your claim that Cal doesn’t promise playing time functions less as a defense of Cal than as an indictment. If Cal doesn’t promise to showcase certain players, then some of his lineups or roster decisions are insensible. I’m at least giving Cal the credit of having a method to his madness.

 

[TankedCat]

I think Cal makes a promise to showcase these kids, and if that means he has to get them 30 minutes a game to get them NBA ready he will do that.

Diallo was ground zero for when the UK world changed to Cals viewpoint. For the most part, up until that time Cal had the talent which didn't require the justification in his minutes dispersal. Then when he had a talent drop off, he was still hell bent on making these kids NBA talent , to the extent it was at the expense of Kentucky

Now its bit him in the butt, he is going to live or die with freshmen next year, and if he fails, any self respecting coach would walk away (or be fired).

If Cal fails with these players ,he has nothing to offer Kentucky or the basketball community. He is clearly not at UK for the benefit of the UK program.

 

[Chitown Terry]

that is not true, he does not play the best players
he plays his favorites & his 5* kids regardless of how they are playing
if a kid plays a good game, ccc says he has to get that kid more time & then he forgets he is on the bench the rest of the year

Nonsense. Have you forgotten that Livingston was a 5 star freshman? He rode the bench until his play improved towards the end of the year. There are plenty of 5 star recruits who Cal has benched after they played ineffectively. Collins from last year's team is another example.

 

[Mike-D]

that is not true, he does not play the best players
he plays his favorites & his 5* kids regardless of how they are playing
if a kid plays a good game, ccc says he has to get that kid more time & then he forgets he is on the bench the rest of the year

Or throws a kid under the bus during his post game presser because the kid was a 3 or 4 star, the fans kept begging Cal to play said player, and when Cal finally did, the kid went for 20+. (Allen)

 

[LineSkiCat14]

While he does favor the freshman in his coaching model, I also can't see Reeves going BACKWARDS in minutes, especially when we really need him as a wing. That's not something I don't think Cal often does, if ever. Reeves got his minutes last year, I don't think that's going away.

 

[bnewt]

Nonsense. Have you forgotten that Livingston was a 5 star freshman? He rode the bench until his play improved towards the end of the year. There are plenty of 5 star recruits who Cal has benched after they played ineffectively. Collins from last year's team is another example.

I think LIvingston started most every game
He may have gone out for prolonged periods, but he still started

also examples of players continuing to play when they stunk too....Boston, Askew, Wheeler

 

[bigbluedon]

That doesn't say that Cal makes promises. And no player that's ever played for Cal has said he was promised anything.

Cal is going to play the best players. These leftovers in the transfer portal know they aren't as good as the freshmen we have.

You are nuts. Just nuts.

 

[Chitown Terry]

I think LIvingston started most every game
He may have gone out for prolonged periods, but he still started

also examples of players continuing to play when they stunk too....Boston, Askew, Wheeler

Wheeler was not a 5 star recruit. He was a good player despite his deficiencies. There weren't any other good playmakers on the team during his 1st year at UK. He was benched last year.

 

[Lempface]

While he does favor the freshman in his coaching model, I also can't see Reeves going BACKWARDS in minutes, especially when we really need him as a wing. That's not something I don't think Cal often does, if ever. Reeves got his minutes last year, I don't think that's going away.

I agree, so that only can mean that Reeves wasn't happy w/ the amount he played last year. He wants a featured role I guess.

 

[JHannibalSmith]

that is not true, he does not play the best players
he plays his favorites & his 5* kids regardless of how they are playing
if a kid plays a good game, ccc says he has to get that kid more time & then he forgets he is on the bench the rest of the year

Yeah, Brandon Boston is the poster boy for promised playing time. His fingerprints were all over several of the 16 losses in 21. He single handedly shot us out of game after game, but, never came off the floor. He shot 36% from the field & 30% from 3, but, was under 20% for most of the season until he made a few 3s late in the year, after the damage had already been done.

He also averaged as many TOs/game as assists. Yet, his starting spot was never in jeopardy & he played 30+ mpg, to the detriment of the team, regardless of how out of control, carelessly & selfishly he played. It would’ve been hard to play much worse than he did that season. But, our coach couldn’t get enough of him. He had to let him keep chucking & hopefully come out of his season long slump bc his draft status was on the line, team success be damned.

 

[thedahc]

Or throws a kid under the bus during his post game presser because the kid was a 3 or 4 star, the fans kept begging Cal to play said player, and when Cal finally did, the kid went for 20+. (Allen)

Can't believe Dontaie Allen keeps getting brought up.......

 

[Oboro3]

No one has ever shown any evidence that Cal promises minutes to any player. Every player who commits says that Cal tells them that this is not for everyone and they will need work hard to make it as a successful UK player. That to me tells me that nothing is promised and depends upon how the player develops.

People bring up players like Boston but fail to say who should have played in his place who would have produced any better...

 

[thedahc]

I think LIvingston started most every game
He may have gone out for prolonged periods, but he still started

also examples of players continuing to play when they stunk too....Boston, Askew, Wheeler

Livingston got the 6th most minutes on the team, so not starter minutes, and barely ahead of CJ Fredrick.

You undercut your own argument by bringing up a non 5 star veteran transfer in Wheeler if you want to say he gives those 5*s time.

Just this year, 4 upperclass transfers played over 5* Livingston and 7 non 5*s played over 5* collins

 

[Oboro3]

I think LIvingston started most every game
He may have gone out for prolonged periods, but he still started

also examples of players continuing to play when they stunk too....Boston, Askew, Wheeler

Again, who should have played instead of those players who would have been as productive?

 

[mebeblue2]

Whether playing time is promised or not, it is crystal clear to anyone paying attention since Cal has been here he will lean towards potentially talented youngsters over proven talented experience. Right or wrong, that’s what he will do and everyone, esp the portal guys and Reeves, understand this very well.

I am not gonna judge the results before they happen this year. However, in my opinion, this is do or die for Cal. He has tripled down on the exclusive freshmen route when essentially all of college basketball has went another direction. If it works, he will be praised. If it fails miserably, he will be on the hot seat like he has never been before. As a UK fan, I hope it works. But, I’m skeptical at best.

i am curious, who has been the proven talented experienced players you are talking about

 

[TankedCat]

Again, who should have played instead of those players who would have been as productive?

the guys that left the year before?

 

[JHannibalSmith]

No one has ever shown any evidence that Cal promises minutes to any player. Every player who commits says that Cal tells them that this is not for everyone and they will need work hard to make it as a successful UK player. That to me tells me that nothing is promised and depends upon how the player develops.

People bring up players like Boston but fail to say who should have played in his place who would have produced any better...

Personally, I would’ve played Mintz, or, Brooks over Boston while Clarke was out. When Clarke was healthy I would’ve gone with Mintz, Clarke, Brooks, Jackson & Sarr. Boston needed to be benched to send a message, if nothing else. Maybe that would’ve lit a fire under him, or, at least let him know that he can’t just do whatever he wants with no consequences. He learned nothing by being enabled.

Whomever replaced him may not have produced any better. But, they couldn’t have produced much worse. Boston was awful all season, in every phase. He needed to be reeled in, but, instead had free rein to do as he pleased. He was extremely selfish & had terrible shot selection, in addition. But, he couldn’t make open shots, either. He didn’t take care of the basketball & didn’t play hard, defensively. When someone plays as badly & selfishly as he did, benching him becomes addition by subtraction until he gets it.

 

[JonathanW]

that is not true, he does not play the best players
he plays his favorites & his 5* kids regardless of how they are playing
if a kid plays a good game, ccc says he has to get that kid more time & then he forgets he is on the bench the rest of the year

I know this is a popular belief. But it's simply not based on data/facts. It is based on a few anecdotal cases.

I have graphed out the minutes played by 71 FR based on their (Rivals) Ranking. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to paste these from Excel. But I will interpret and summarize, since that is what I am trained to do as a Statistician.

- The median rank is 15 (wow), meaning 1/2 of the 71 have been ranked 15th or better.

- There have been:
11 ranked 1-5
14 ranked 6-10 (Diallo not included in their rankings so I put him 10th)
16 ranked 11-20
11 ranked 21-30
10 ranked 31-40
4 ranked 41-85
5 ranked 85+ (4 of whom were not in top 150)

- a regression line shows that a:
#5 player is likely to play 32mpg
#10 player is likely to play 29mpg
#20 player is likely to play 20mpg
#30 player is likely to play 13mpg
#40 player is likely to play 6mpg
top 10 players have ranged from 14-36mpg
11-20 ranked players have ranged from 4-35mpg
21-30 players have ranged from 3-30mpg
31-40 players have ranged from 1-34mpg
41+ players have ranged from 1-24mpg
So the low end for the top 10 and top 20 shows that rankings do not guarantee minutes.
And the top end for the 31-40 and 41+ groups shows that significant minutes can be earned by non-5* players.

But when you break it down by position, then you see stronger correlations.
- at PG & SG, every top 20 guy (14 of them) has averaged 25+mpg; every top 40 guy (23 of them) 19+mpg; only 3 have not been top 40
- at SF you see a broader distribution, where the top 10 guys all play 25+mpg; the 10-15 guys range from 14-33mpg; and then the 8 guys ranked 16+ range from 1-15mpg
- at PF & C, is where you see the least correlation of Ranking to Minutes! Even top 5 ranking gets you less minutes (ave 25, but ranges 14-32) than other positions (32 at G, ranges 30-36). The 9 guys ranked 18-40 ranged from 3-24mpg

 

[TankedCat]

I know this is a popular belief. But it's simply not based on data/facts. It is based on a few anecdotal cases.

I have graphed out the minutes played by 71 FR based on their (Rivals) Ranking. Unfortunately I can't figure out how to paste these from Excel. But I will interpret and summarize, since that is what I am trained to do as a Statistician.

- The median rank is 15 (wow), meaning 1/2 of the 71 have been ranked 15th or better.

- There have been:
11 ranked 1-5
14 ranked 6-10 (Diallo not included in their rankings so I put him 10th)
16 ranked 11-20
11 ranked 21-30
10 ranked 31-40
4 ranked 41-85
5 ranked 85+ (4 of whom were not in top 150)

- a regression line shows that a:
#5 player is likely to play 32mpg
#10 player is likely to play 29mpg
#20 player is likely to play 20mpg
#30 player is likely to play 13mpg
#40 player is likely to play 6mpg
top 10 players have ranged from 14-36mpg
11-20 ranked players have ranged from 4-35mpg
21-30 players have ranged from 3-30mpg
31-40 players have ranged from 1-34mpg
41+ players have ranged from 1-24mpg
So the low end for the top 10 and top 20 shows that rankings do not guarantee minutes.
And the top end for the 31-40 and 41+ groups shows that significant minutes can be earned by non-5* players.

But when you break it down by position, then you see stronger correlations.
- at PG & SG, every top 20 guy (14 of them) has averaged 25+mpg; every top 40 guy (23 of them) 19+mpg; only 3 have not been top 40
- at SF you see a broader distribution, where the top 10 guys all play 25+mpg; the 10-15 guys range from 14-33mpg; and then the 8 guys ranked 16+ range from 1-15mpg
- at PF & C, is where you see the least correlation of Ranking to Minutes! Even top 5 ranking gets you less minutes (ave 25, but ranges 14-32) than other positions (32 at G, ranges 30-36). The 9 guys ranked 18-40 ranged from 3-24mpg

so are your numbers just based on their freshmen year?

secondly, I think you have to look at it on a yearly basis, not in the aggregate, because of the competition for those minutes.

and finally , when someone says he does not play the best players, I don't think that discussion is referencing ranking in class, its based on whether the player on that team in that moment is the best player for that position

I thinkyour data actually supports the accusation that he promises minutes based on player rankings versus actual player value to the team. While I don't think he promises minutes per se, I believe he commits to whatever he believes is necessary to make certain players NBA ready.

I appreciate the effort on your part to collect and relay that data though, even if you and I think it tells a different story

 

[UkMccurdy]

I’m as critical of Cal as they come, but I question this. Everyone that has come here and been one and done have openly talked about how Cal makes zero promises coming in. I’m inclined to believe that. Cal is on the downside of his career and it’s looking like a Boeheim like finish as opposed to a Coach K like finish. One didn’t adapt and one did to the changing college basketball landscape. I’m not sure Cal is willing to change. He is as stubborn as they come. That means about playing time too. I’ll pound on him over many things, but I won’t buy that he made promises.

 

[bnewt]

No one has ever shown any evidence that Cal promises minutes to any player. Every player who commits says that Cal tells them that this is not for everyone and they will need work hard to make it as a successful UK player. That to me tells me that nothing is promised and depends upon how the player develops.

People bring up players like Boston but fail to say who should have played in his place who would have produced any better...

Anyone that drew a breath should have been playing over Boston, even a walk on

 

[CaptainBoogerBuns]

You are nuts. Just nuts.

Yep. Worst (almost) posts on this board.

 

[KMKAT]

Or throws a kid under the bus during his post game presser because the kid was a 3 or 4 star, the fans kept begging Cal to play said player, and when Cal finally did, the kid went for 20+. (Allen)

The truth there was Cal didn't play him. Bruiser did. And with Cal in the locker room.....

Maybe Cal should start coming up with reasons not to be on the sidelines for every game.

What's our record when Cal gets thrown out?

 

[jwphelps]

IF Cal can harness the financial power of NIL, perhaps he won’t have to keep promising major recruits 38 minutes per game any more.

Cal has been doing that since before NIL deals. Why do you think we have so many transfers leaving all the time.

 

[BigBlueStl]

I’ve never heard or seen any proof that Cal promises anything, especially playing time.

Did you have some solid evidence showing such OP? You mention John Clay as someone he promised this to in your thread title, then fail to mention him again in your entire essay of a post.

No wonder so many fan bases poke fun at UK fans.

 

[kyjeff1]

Wheeler was not a 5 star recruit. He was a good player despite his deficiencies. There weren't any other good playmakers on the team during his 1st year at UK. He was benched last year.

Who's fault is it that there weren't any other good players?

Also, how is that true when one of his teammates set the single season assist record at the most storied program in the sport?

You're trying to hard to come up with excuses, but I'm dying to see you answer my first question.

 

[Chitown Terry]

Who's fault is it that there weren't any other good players?

Also, how is that true when one of his teammates set the single season assist record at the most storied program in the sport?

You're trying to hard to come up with excuses, but I'm dying to see you answer my first question.

The other point guard on that team was TyTy Washington. He functioned better as the shooting guard despite setting that single-game record with 17 assists. Wheeler was the UK player chosen as a finalist for the Cousy award not Washington. There were good players on that team. That team was severely hurt by injuries.

 

[JST390-2]

I’ve never heard or seen any proof that Cal promises anything, especially playing time.

Did you have some solid evidence showing such OP? You mention John Clay as someone he promised this to in your thread title, then fail to mention him again in your entire essay of a post.

No wonder so many fan bases poke fun at UK fans.

Yeah it’s assumed and that is what Mr Clay is assuming …at the point he wrote this article we were striking out on any players with experience …I hope it changes and he can reel in some older guys which with Reeves and hopefully others can happen …Mr Clay sighted numerous examples of young studs getting lots of playing time …I only listed half the ones he mentioned

 

[kyjeff1]

Wheeler was not a 5 star recruit. He was a good player despite his deficiencies. There weren't any other good playmakers on the team during his 1st year at UK. He was benched last year.

Wheeler wasn't benched, he pouted and quit and Cal covered for him, because his players-first garbage idea requires him to do that.

 

[Chitown Terry]

Wheeler wasn't benched, he pouted and quit and Cal covered for him, because his players-first garbage idea requires him to do that.

Cal promoted Wallace to the starting point guard position over Wheeler.