To see how this lunacy creeps into the "mainstream" just read the leftwing Politico today. When listing side effects of a Covid therapeutic they say this: "for use in pregnant people." Seriously? First the leftists try to infect the language.
Transgender Athletes, Opinion ?
- Thread starter MrHotDice
- Start date
"pregnant people"
Men can't have babies. Neither can men that Halloween as women.
Men can't have babies. Neither can men that Halloween as women.
This was today from Politico. Lunacy. This is one of the many reasons that the press is the enemy of the people.
I have a question along these same lines.
What kind of response am I likely to get from my doctor if I tell him that my perfectly functional left arm just doesn't correlate with my own self image and that I'd please like him to remove it?
I'm betting that no doctor worth his/her degree would agree to remove my arm.
Yet, we have any number of surgeons world-wide willing to perform "gender affirmation surgery" to physically alter a otherwise perfectly healthy patient.
What is the scientific difference? Why is it unthinkable to remove a perfectly healthy arm but, when it comes to lopping off a penis...people are lining up to do the job?
What kind of response am I likely to get from my doctor if I tell him that my perfectly functional left arm just doesn't correlate with my own self image and that I'd please like him to remove it?
I'm betting that no doctor worth his/her degree would agree to remove my arm.
Yet, we have any number of surgeons world-wide willing to perform "gender affirmation surgery" to physically alter a otherwise perfectly healthy patient.
What is the scientific difference? Why is it unthinkable to remove a perfectly healthy arm but, when it comes to lopping off a penis...people are lining up to do the job?
Yeah, I forgot about the "transabled". Crazy ass liberals will support and normalize any mental illness. It's so they can feel superior calling rational people who won't fall for it "bigots". This kind of divisive idiocy is really all they have to maintain a base.
What is a woman?
"A woman is a woman"
Lol
Look you can do whatever you want and call yourself whatever, but you can't expect everyone else to partake in your fantasy
"A woman is a woman"
Lol
Look you can do whatever you want and call yourself whatever, but you can't expect everyone else to partake in your fantasy
That's all it is, circular reasoning.
Then if you don't agree, it must be because you are a bigot. It's all so exceedingly stupid, it strains credulity that so many are susceptible to this line of thought.
Then if you don't agree, it must be because you are a bigot. It's all so exceedingly stupid, it strains credulity that so many are susceptible to this line of thought.
Stop making this about gender and make it about anatomy. We have two divisions. Those born with prostates and those born without. You cannot fake this, you cannot change this, and it is an easy thing to check for in a physical. This doesn't fall into categories regarding gender, race, discrimination, feelings or political correctness. I don't know why we always seem to have to make things so hard.
Anger? Well, when you can be demonized and cancelled just because you don't go along with insane ideas like men having babies, 140 genders and the notion that you can go against science and change your sex....uh yeah, that can create some anger.
I don't know what that means, Loon. If it makes you feel superior you can pretend I do.
You're bouncing all over the place, Loon. I haven't followed the NFL for years. What are you going to ask me about next that IDGAF about and not thread related? Are you cracking up, Loon?
Next week when there's another riot, scan the crowd and tell me how many are in the "older angrier generation'.
11 pages in, and the content thus far has been pretty predictable. I'm not sure very many people came to this thread in good faith to truly debate transgender inclusion in sports, but I'll offer an opinion. Two important things to guide my beliefs....
1> I believe trans people do exist, and certainly understand that many people don't. But I do. Having seen a few people go thru a full transition, there's a lot more to it than just switching clothes or wearing lipstick. It takes years of therapy, counseling, surgery, drugs, and is an extremely intensive process. I may not "get" it in every case, and it may not make sense, and yes it's very weird, but the least I can do with those I know personally is respect their wishes, call them by the appropriate names/pronouns, and treat them with as much dignity as I would anyone else.
2> To that end, I do feel like trans athletes deserve to participate in sports in their new gender......but I also believe in fairness. That means when the UPenn swimmer spends his whole life as a male, develops muscles, goes thru puberty, and becomes a grown man, he can't just transition and qualify for women's sports based on his/her hormone levels. I believe in inclusion, but these cases should be treated very strictly.
But what are we really talking about here?
College and pro sports already have rules in place that govern trans athletes. There certainly are some that slip thru the cracks, or take advantage of the rules in place, but there's no more than a handful in the entire country.
In high school sports, this is quite literally a non issue.
* the Commonwealth of Kentucky already has a rule in place that essentially prevents trans athletes from competition, there are ZERO trans athletes in the entire state, and yet lawmakers all around the state are trying to pass legislation preventing all zero of them from competition.
* the state of Tennessee also has ZERO trans athletes, but the Governor signed a law preventing all zero of them from competition.
* West Virginia has ZERO trans athletes, but governor Justice proudly signed a law eliminating all zero of them from competition.
* Kay Ivey did the same in Alabama, banning all ZERO trans athletes from competing outside their born gender.
* the governor of South Dakota took care of the issue thru executive order. They currently have a rule to evaluate this one a case-by-case basis, and currently have ONE trans athletes in the state. LINK
* the governor of Louisiana wisely vetoed a trans athlete ban, since there is already a strict rule in place that essentially bars them anyways. And, you guessed it, there are ZERO trans athletes in that state.
And on and on and on. If you actually take time to really study and look into trans athletes in sports, what you'll realize is this is a non issue. It's been spoon fed to us by the Lamestream Fake News Enemy of the State failing news media as yet another Culture War battle. Before virtue signaling, self important politicians stuck their noses in this issue, it was already working. It was fixed. Pro and college sports may need some slight tweaking, but particularly in high school.......the current rules have been working extremely well.
1> I believe trans people do exist, and certainly understand that many people don't. But I do. Having seen a few people go thru a full transition, there's a lot more to it than just switching clothes or wearing lipstick. It takes years of therapy, counseling, surgery, drugs, and is an extremely intensive process. I may not "get" it in every case, and it may not make sense, and yes it's very weird, but the least I can do with those I know personally is respect their wishes, call them by the appropriate names/pronouns, and treat them with as much dignity as I would anyone else.
2> To that end, I do feel like trans athletes deserve to participate in sports in their new gender......but I also believe in fairness. That means when the UPenn swimmer spends his whole life as a male, develops muscles, goes thru puberty, and becomes a grown man, he can't just transition and qualify for women's sports based on his/her hormone levels. I believe in inclusion, but these cases should be treated very strictly.
But what are we really talking about here?
College and pro sports already have rules in place that govern trans athletes. There certainly are some that slip thru the cracks, or take advantage of the rules in place, but there's no more than a handful in the entire country.
In high school sports, this is quite literally a non issue.
* the Commonwealth of Kentucky already has a rule in place that essentially prevents trans athletes from competition, there are ZERO trans athletes in the entire state, and yet lawmakers all around the state are trying to pass legislation preventing all zero of them from competition.
* the state of Tennessee also has ZERO trans athletes, but the Governor signed a law preventing all zero of them from competition.
* West Virginia has ZERO trans athletes, but governor Justice proudly signed a law eliminating all zero of them from competition.
* Kay Ivey did the same in Alabama, banning all ZERO trans athletes from competing outside their born gender.
* the governor of South Dakota took care of the issue thru executive order. They currently have a rule to evaluate this one a case-by-case basis, and currently have ONE trans athletes in the state. LINK
* the governor of Louisiana wisely vetoed a trans athlete ban, since there is already a strict rule in place that essentially bars them anyways. And, you guessed it, there are ZERO trans athletes in that state.
And on and on and on. If you actually take time to really study and look into trans athletes in sports, what you'll realize is this is a non issue. It's been spoon fed to us by the Lamestream Fake News Enemy of the State failing news media as yet another Culture War battle. Before virtue signaling, self important politicians stuck their noses in this issue, it was already working. It was fixed. Pro and college sports may need some slight tweaking, but particularly in high school.......the current rules have been working extremely well.
Your shallow mindset prevents you from thinking outside the box, as expected. If you actually studied the topic itself vs the # of cases, for example, then you would see how this filters into a societal issue. It isn't just X state has 1 trans so I don't see a problem.
Big picture....if you have the ability to see it.
Do you actually know any trans athletes? I do. I've competed against quite a few, and it was not an issue.
I spent 7 years as President/Vice President/board member of one of the largest, oldest non-profit running groups in the country, helping produce 100 races from 1 mile up the 25k. We decided as a board to allow runners to participate in the gender of their choice with no questions asked, and in 60 years that organization has never had a single instance where this was a problem.
Same for me personally, as I have run over 200 races in the past 15 years between half marathon and 100 miles, and not a single event I'm aware of had a policy excluding trans athletes, and I'm not aware of one single instance where there was an issue.
I also personally own a timing/event production company. I have had trans athletes that I know personally compete in their chosen gender and it has not been an issue even one single time.
My mindset is based, in part, off 15 years and literally HUNDREDS of athletic events as a participant, owner, and organizer, and despite there not even being any rules in place to govern trans athletes, this has never been a problem. Not in the sport I compete in regularly, nor in society at large.
I spent 7 years as President/Vice President/board member of one of the largest, oldest non-profit running groups in the country, helping produce 100 races from 1 mile up the 25k. We decided as a board to allow runners to participate in the gender of their choice with no questions asked, and in 60 years that organization has never had a single instance where this was a problem.
Same for me personally, as I have run over 200 races in the past 15 years between half marathon and 100 miles, and not a single event I'm aware of had a policy excluding trans athletes, and I'm not aware of one single instance where there was an issue.
I also personally own a timing/event production company. I have had trans athletes that I know personally compete in their chosen gender and it has not been an issue even one single time.
My mindset is based, in part, off 15 years and literally HUNDREDS of athletic events as a participant, owner, and organizer, and despite there not even being any rules in place to govern trans athletes, this has never been a problem. Not in the sport I compete in regularly, nor in society at large.
In all these events in which transgenders were involved were there any in which a transgender female won a female event? Serious question.
What specifically is your/the rule you suggest with regard to the Penn swimmer? You suggest there is a mechanism for “fairness.” What is that mechanism?
You almost seem to enjoy mocking all the states that took preemptive action to protect women's athletics. I would note that UPenn had exactly ZERO trans athletes on their swim team....until they had one. So that is why those states are acting BEFORE there becomes another UPenn style example of women's athletics being appropriated by genetic males.
Gender is not a choice, it is an innate property. You can't choose to be another gender.
I appreciate your openness to welcoming transgenders to your races, whatever distance they may be (which is completely irrelevant) but you continue to miss the issue.
There are 2 genders...2. No more, no less. In your explanation above, you may as well just have open races which are not defined as M/F, given you are allowing transgenders to enter a race under their "chosen" gender, instead of where they should be...their biological gender. Whether or not it "caused a problem" is pointless.
This is bigger than athletics, as it effects how we live in a multitude of ways, not the least of which is how society continues to adapt to this in our daily lives.
Yeah, it is also unclear the relevance of PTI’s anecdotal experiences. Why state those vague examples? Maybe PTI will offer some clarification, after deriding others of avoiding the subject.
They have muddled the language to the point that "gender" has become something distinctively different than actual sex. And many on the left have bought into that. There are two and only two sexes. XX and XY. Male and Female. As for the rest there is only one feeling that the left will not allow. That is for a white person to feel they are a black person. That one is not allowed.....which is totally hypocritical and shoots down their argument.
Ed does not even disagree with many of the posters he continually baits in this thread. The idea of the discussion, evidently, is what he disagrees with.
There is no mention that this is an actual competition where a prize is awarded for victory. My guess is that these are just open event where the competition is against ones self to defeat the distance. Participation trophy stuff.
For a guy that notes all these states where there are ZERO trans athletes...he certainly has found a state where they are falling out of the woodwork.
* starchief: I'm not aware of a single running event in which I've ever taken part (again, this is across HUNDREDS of events) where the inclusion of trans athletes has ever been an issue. So no, I don't know of one where a trans athlete has won a race, or a major award. It's just simply never been an issue.
Some examples...
The TGNY100 has one of the most inclusive policies that I know of, is produced by two national record holding ultramarathoners, and even includes a separate award for non-binary athletes. Exactly ONE person out of 150 entrants chose this option in 2021. I believe they DNF'd.
I have a trans friend who owns a Crossfit gym, and recently completed the Louisiana Marathon, finishing around 400-500th among men. Had he participated as a female (his born gender), he would have finished about 50-100 spots higher. Most of the comments on here suggest this is fair, but the idea of a fully transitioned man with a beard and large upper body muscles and testosterone flowing thru his body running against women is foolish, and quite unfair.
I just ran the Tunnel Hill 100, alongside (sort of, since they absolutely destroyed me) multiple world record holders. One of the runners who beat me was born male and participated as a female. Don't know her at all, but it was obvious just by appearance. She ran very well, but also finished a solid 9-10 hours behind the female winner. If anyone had an issue with it, then it never was brought up to me or anyone else I know who was there.
I've participated six times in the Leadville 100. In 2021 (I was there as a volunteer), they had a non-binary division. This is the biggest 100 mile race in the United States, and one of the most prestigious in the world, and there wasn't a single participant who chose to identify this way.
* Caveman: glad you asked. There are already very solid rules in place in most states that fully protect high school athletes, but college/pro is different. People who do transition are significantly more likely to do so as adults, AND they have the benefit of having fully grown into their (particularly male) bodies to give them an unfair advantage. Their hormone levels are required to be within a certain range, but that range isn't strict enough. I also don't think an athlete who has already participated for years in one gender can switch halfway thru their short college career, and there should be a more thorough case-by-case review so that the UPenn example doesn't happen again.
* MrLecter: you are correct, in the history of college athletics, across dozens of sports, and millions of athletes, there has been one particularly unfair example of a trans athlete gaining an advantage. No rule is perfect, but if the best you can do is to come up with one....then I feel pretty good about the rules, although they do need tweaked. I'm sure there's more. You may even be able to find a few more, and I believe/hope the rules continue to work against them and in favor of fairness. But I'm not about to predict the downfall of humanity of feign hysteria over a couple of cheats.
* Anytime UKO takes a strong position, I feel incredibly confident to be completely in disagreement. It confirms that I'm right. Most importantly, though, is that he's showing his cards. I believe the term is projection. You're plainly showing that your views on this subject have little to nothing to do with equality in sport, but are a part of a bigger picture of your hatred for liberals/democrats/the alphabet people, or whatever other fictitious, non-existent boogeyman that keeps you up at night. I'm talking about sports and fair competition, and you can go take your nonsense about fixing society elsewhere.
Get out in the world and see some things. Get your nose out of the Lamestream Fake News Enemy of the People Failing Media. You will see that this just really isn't a big issue.
Some examples...
The TGNY100 has one of the most inclusive policies that I know of, is produced by two national record holding ultramarathoners, and even includes a separate award for non-binary athletes. Exactly ONE person out of 150 entrants chose this option in 2021. I believe they DNF'd.
I have a trans friend who owns a Crossfit gym, and recently completed the Louisiana Marathon, finishing around 400-500th among men. Had he participated as a female (his born gender), he would have finished about 50-100 spots higher. Most of the comments on here suggest this is fair, but the idea of a fully transitioned man with a beard and large upper body muscles and testosterone flowing thru his body running against women is foolish, and quite unfair.
I just ran the Tunnel Hill 100, alongside (sort of, since they absolutely destroyed me) multiple world record holders. One of the runners who beat me was born male and participated as a female. Don't know her at all, but it was obvious just by appearance. She ran very well, but also finished a solid 9-10 hours behind the female winner. If anyone had an issue with it, then it never was brought up to me or anyone else I know who was there.
I've participated six times in the Leadville 100. In 2021 (I was there as a volunteer), they had a non-binary division. This is the biggest 100 mile race in the United States, and one of the most prestigious in the world, and there wasn't a single participant who chose to identify this way.
* Caveman: glad you asked. There are already very solid rules in place in most states that fully protect high school athletes, but college/pro is different. People who do transition are significantly more likely to do so as adults, AND they have the benefit of having fully grown into their (particularly male) bodies to give them an unfair advantage. Their hormone levels are required to be within a certain range, but that range isn't strict enough. I also don't think an athlete who has already participated for years in one gender can switch halfway thru their short college career, and there should be a more thorough case-by-case review so that the UPenn example doesn't happen again.
* MrLecter: you are correct, in the history of college athletics, across dozens of sports, and millions of athletes, there has been one particularly unfair example of a trans athlete gaining an advantage. No rule is perfect, but if the best you can do is to come up with one....then I feel pretty good about the rules, although they do need tweaked. I'm sure there's more. You may even be able to find a few more, and I believe/hope the rules continue to work against them and in favor of fairness. But I'm not about to predict the downfall of humanity of feign hysteria over a couple of cheats.
* Anytime UKO takes a strong position, I feel incredibly confident to be completely in disagreement. It confirms that I'm right. Most importantly, though, is that he's showing his cards. I believe the term is projection. You're plainly showing that your views on this subject have little to nothing to do with equality in sport, but are a part of a bigger picture of your hatred for liberals/democrats/the alphabet people, or whatever other fictitious, non-existent boogeyman that keeps you up at night. I'm talking about sports and fair competition, and you can go take your nonsense about fixing society elsewhere.
Get out in the world and see some things. Get your nose out of the Lamestream Fake News Enemy of the People Failing Media. You will see that this just really isn't a big issue.
First, many of us are in the real world. The case in the OP is a real world case. They fact that it may be rare today is irrelevant.
Second, your examples have nothing to do with the issue in this thread.
Finally, I think the rules you put forth are a good start. Look, if there was no advantage, I would not care about this issue. For example, if my transgender male friend wanted to box against biological males and someone protested, I would firmly be in the corner of my friend. That is just not this case.
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