Transgender Athletes, Opinion ?

[Nbacats]

I'd also like to point out I find it hilarious that quite a few people (not singling anyone out on this board, just speaking in general) who complain aobut how transgenders playing women's sports are going to ruin women's sports yet actively complain about women's sports and do or have done numerous things to undermine women's sports and to try to roll back Title IX as much as possible.

It's as if they have to be constantly bitching, moaning, and whining about something that offends them, which is the exact same thing they always bitch, moan, and whine about liberals doing. These specific folks don't care about women's sports, they just need their next outrage issue to bitch about.

 

[gamecockcat]

Feelings aren't facts. Yes, there are abnormalities in genetic code but that's got to be a very, very small percentage of people worldwide. And science terms them 'abnormalities' because they aren't the norm, i.e., either XX or XY.

Transgenderism is a state of mind, not fact. And I believe it's an expression of what an individual or society believes are the actions, mannerisms, etc. of what it is to be 'male' or 'female'. A biological male who likes to sew and knit and play with babies and wear silky underwear and makeup is still a male even though he may not exactly conform to what 'male' means to a lot of people.

I heard a lecturer (definitely right-leaning, for full disclosure) use this analogy when talking about identifying as a different biological gender. If you're a 5'-10" American male, you're, factually, about 'average' height for an American male - maybe slightly taller. That's a fact and there are a ton of statistics to back that up. Now, if you're walking in downtown Lima, Peru where the average male is 5'-5", many individuals would say they feel 'tall' in such a setting. By contrast, if you walk out on an NBA court where the average individual is taller than 6'-5", I'd imagine you'd feel 'short'. Do your feelings in either one of those situations change the facts that you're 5'-10"? How you feel about it at any one time is not a fact.

This same lecturer posed another good question: if we are OK with and encourage individuals to pick their pronouns (i.e., gender) why not let them pick their adjectives, too? I may feel 'old' or 'black' or 'disabled' or 'abused' or any number of other adjectives but none of them are fact just because I feel that way. I'm 58 years old. Can I feel 67 and start receiving my full Social Security now? Can a 16-year feel 21 and buy alcohol? Can I apply for SBA loan and, because I feel like I'm a minority woman, can I get extra consideration for that loan because I feel that way? Where does it stop?

 

[UKGrad83]

"You can twist perception. Reality won't budge!" - Neil Peart, 1989.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Do you have any evidence that they aren't?

The same evidence you have that they are.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

For a guy who says sports should not care about your feelings, you share a lot of feelings about how things are going in sports on this board. Which is it?

I am not trying to compete against women or saying that its okay because I want to virtue signal. I suggest you argue against and with science. Science does not care about your woke feelings.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

I'd also like to point out I find it hilarious that quite a few people (not singling anyone out on this board, just speaking in general) who complain aobut how transgenders playing women's sports are going to ruin women's sports yet actively complain about women's sports and do or have done numerous things to undermine women's sports and to try to roll back Title IX as much as possible.

It's as if they have to be constantly bitching, moaning, and whining about something that offends them, which is the exact same thing they always bitch, moan, and whine about liberals doing. These specific folks don't care about women's sports, they just need their next outrage issue to bitch about.

You really are a walking woke cliche machine. Title9 was put in place to "equalize" funding. Trans activism is openly inserting superior males into female sports which completely tilts the playing field back to the men. If a man is not able to excel while competing against other males, just say that you feel like a woman and jump in the pool against real females. I really hope that the left continues to promote this issue on the field of play. I really do. Any person involved with female athletes and athletics understands that males are biggerfasterstronger than females as we see at UPenn. The issue is only embraced by the fringe and for the fringe.

As for "offending." LOL. That is the basis for every woke aggrieved group issue. It is a dog that will come back to bite you.

 

[ganner918]

It seems too many people, on all sides of the issue, fail to address that this is really two separate issues we're talking about and your stance on one doesn't necessarily predict your stance on the other.

Are trans identities valid, and should we address people by their preferred name and gendered pronouns - this is one question, and I've made clear here my stance (yes, we know that nature isn't as rigid as the framework we use to understand it, we should be open to things not fitting into a rigid framework, we know that cultures across time and geographical space have had concepts like transgender/nonbinary indicating it's a natural phenomenon. If my friend used to go by Bill and asks to now go by Barbara, it harms me none to respect this.)

Should trans women compete against cis women in sports - this is a separate question. I lean toward no. I think sports are (or should be) separated on the basis of biological sex, not on the basis of gender/gender identity. I see no reason why competitions should be segregated by gender/gender identity - it makes little sense to do so. It DOES make sense to segregate them on biological sex - we have women's tennis, women's basketball, women's soccer, etc. because men are generally bigger, stronger, and faster and especially at high levels like professional and scholarship college competition, you'd have few to zero women able to compete against men. I acknowledge the complications here that arise from the small fraction of people who are biologically intersex, and don't have an easy answer to all that arises from this.

There are further questions that arise beyond those two, and the entire issue is far more complex than, again, can be reduced to an easy-to-digest binary where you either treat trans women identically to cis women in all respects, or you reject trans identity altogether and treat people as the gender they're assigned at birth in all respects. I'm generally respectful of trans identities, and have been called a woke leftist idiot over it. I also would have no interest in dating or having an intimate relationship with a trans woman, and have been called a transphobe over it. Things aren't ever actually as simple as the mental frameworks we use to simplify a complicated reality.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

It seems too many people, on all sides of the issue, fail to address that this is really two separate issues we're talking about and your stance on one doesn't necessarily predict your stance on the other.

Are trans identities valid, and should we address people by their preferred name and gendered pronouns - this is one question, and I've made clear here my stance (yes, we know that nature isn't as rigid as the framework we use to understand it, we should be open to things not fitting into a rigid framework, we know that cultures across time and geographical space have had concepts like transgender/nonbinary indicating it's a natural phenomenon. If my friend used to go by Bill and asks to now go by Barbara, it harms me none to respect this.)

Should trans women compete against cis women in sports - this is a separate question. I lean toward no. I think sports are (or should be) separated on the basis of biological sex, not on the basis of gender/gender identity. I see no reason why competitions should be segregated by gender/gender identity - it makes little sense to do so. It DOES make sense to segregate them on biological sex - we have women's tennis, women's basketball, women's soccer, etc. because men are generally bigger, stronger, and faster and especially at high levels like professional and scholarship college competition, you'd have few to zero women able to compete against men. I acknowledge the complications here that arise from the small fraction of people who are biologically intersex, and don't have an easy answer to all that arises from this.

There are further questions that arise beyond those two, and the entire issue is far more complex than, again, can be reduced to an easy-to-digest binary where you either treat trans women identically to cis women in all respects, or you reject trans identity altogether and treat people as the gender they're assigned at birth in all respects. I'm generally respectful of trans identities, and have been called a woke leftist idiot over it. I also would have no interest in dating or having an intimate relationship with a trans woman, and have been called a transphobe over it. Things aren't ever actually as simple as the mental frameworks we use to simplify a complicated reality.

Although born white, Rachel Dolezal wants to be, live as a black female. Do you honor her feelings and consider her a black female?

 

[SDC8888]

A human being, like all other mammals saving cases of genetic deformity, can be born one of two sexes, male or female. A male can be more masculine than another, or a female more feminine than another, but at no point is a female so masculine or so lacking in femininity that she becomes a male, nor vice versa.

To "change" that reality, the social construct (idea) of gender was fabricated to justify a person's feelings (delusions), such that a man could be a woman, or that woman could be a man - that a man can have his period or be pregnant, or that a woman could father a child. This is all of course absurd unless and until you obfuscate reality by changing definitions such that your gender identity (idea) defines male/female sex reality for you.

Which isn't really a problem in and of itself; people should be able to live what ideas (fantasy) they want in modern liberal society so long as they are not harming others. The problem here is that by imposing your fabricated reality on society, you're harming others by depriving them an equal playing field in competitive athletics.

 

[Catfan in Tn.]

Although born white, Rachel Dolezal wants to be, live as a black female. Do you honor her feelings and consider her a black female?

No.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

Why does the B in LGBT stand for "Bi" if there is more than 2 genders?

Sounds like the woke are GD bigots

 

[thabigbluenation]

But 60 years ago, it was also considered normal to have segregation. So what's your point?

And the segregated want to be segregated again.

And as for your hermaphrodite friend, it's rare. We have conjoined twins ppl with 6 fingers. Doesn't prove any points.

Dudes who think they are girls are simply reducing womanhood down to being costume changes.

They have and never will experience what actual biological girls go thru.

 

[Nbacats]

And as for your hermaphrodite friend, it's rare. We have conjoined twins ppl with 6 fingers. Doesn't prove any points.

Hermaphrodite and intersex aren't the same thing...🤦‍♂️

 

[Caveman Catfan]

If you understand the evolution of the human then you understand current need vs. previous "earlier" need or use of it. You don't need TWO of many things we have but we have two for good reason. And we certainly in 10,000 years may not have an appendix or wisdom teeth etc.... Useless is your opinion and not based on science.

There is actually some medical thought that the appendix is not “useless” and it serves a function. We equate “can live without it” as “useless.” The two are not synonymous.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Hermaphrodite and intersex aren't the same thing...🤦‍♂️

A definition for hermaphrodite is actually intersex.

But, if you want to identify gender by sex chromosomes, we are back to the OP. The XYs identifying as XXs have a physiological advantage over the XXs. Is it fair to the XXs to have them work hard to compete against that innate genetic advantage?

 

[DrH. Lecter]

And the segregated want to be segregated again.

And as for your hermaphrodite friend, it's rare. We have conjoined twins ppl with 6 fingers. Doesn't prove any points.

Dudes who think they are girls are simply reducing womanhood down to being costume changes.

They have and never will experience what actual biological girls go thru.

I believe that a great philosopher once said it best. I have nipples too. Can you milk me Fokker?

 

[SDC8888]

These are difficult questions when you are not grounding your reasoning in truth. You are superseding objective reality with a subjective one.

That can't not be difficult, and is ultimately only a destructive exercise in futility.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

These are difficult questions when you are not grounding your reasoning in truth. You are superseding objective reality with a subjective one.

That can't not be difficult, and is ultimately only a destructive exercise in futility.

View embedded media

Actually the Furries are an example of Trans and Leftism spiraling out of control to the point it destroys itself. Its desire to embrace a fantasy world eventually ends with children or adults demanding we accept them as cats because that is how they prefer to identify. A leftist cannot avoid the trap of either obliging them their fantasy or becoming "racist" or whatever phrase is the progressives virtue signaling word-du jour. I must admit that watching men in a pool beating the cis women by 40 seconds or seeing litter boxes in a school bathroom is frankly too good to be true...but sadly is.

 

[ganner918]

These are difficult questions when you are not grounding your reasoning in truth. You are superseding objective reality with a subjective one.

That can't not be difficult, and is ultimately only a destructive exercise in futility.

View embedded media

Actually the Furries are an example of Trans and Leftism spiraling out of control to the point it destroys itself. Its desire to embrace a fantasy world eventually ends with children or adults demanding we accept them as cats because that is how they prefer to identify. A leftist cannot avoid the trap of either obliging them their fantasy or becoming "racist" or whatever phrase is the progressives virtue signaling word-du jour. I must admit that watching men in a pool beating the cis women by 40 seconds or seeing litter boxes in a school bathroom is frankly too good to be true...but sadly is.

How gullible are you? The litter box story is fake. But, hey, why care about pesky little things like truth and objective reality when your goal is virtue signalling your hatred of trans people and "leftists." Mission accomplished.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

How gullible are you? The litter box story is fake. But, hey, why care about pesky little things like truth and objective reality when your goal is virtue signalling your hatred of trans people and "leftists." Mission accomplished.

Whether fake or not is just a distraction. You did not say Furries are fake. They are not. Lets go back to the root not the distraction. Jessie Smolette was fake too as are the vast majority of hate crimes reported on campus. Yet that doesn't stop your hatred and gullibility. I do not hate trans people. That is another virtue signal by you to attempt to demonize those whose scientific based logic is not something you can argue against. Why do you hate science?

 

[ganner918]

Wtf does Smollett have to do with this? I sniffed that one out from the start. What gullibility or "hatred" of mine are you referring to?

 

[SDC8888]

How gullible are you? The litter box story is fake. But, hey, why care about pesky little things like truth and objective reality when your goal is virtue signalling your hatred of trans people and "leftists." Mission accomplished.

I don't care if it actually happened or not. That is totally immaterial.

What is material is that cosplaying as an animal is precisely analogous to cosplaying as a different sex. There is no substantive difference. You can put on a costume and think you're an animal, or you can take hormones and have procedures done to put on a gender costume and think yourself a different sex.

In either case, I don't particularly care what an individual believes, no, but you don't have the right to force the rest of society to conform (won't work anyway) to your subjective beliefs. A transitioned person is no more a man/woman than a furry is whatever animal. That's the unadulterated truth.

The rest is a total misinterpretation on your part - mind reading. You're projecting your own why.

 

[Ron Mehico]

What are you guys even arguing in this thread anymore anyway?

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Wtf does Smollett have to do with this? I sniffed that one out from the start. What gullibility or "hatred" of mine are you referring to?

You may have but I can link you to hundreds of examples of those on the left who did not. I could start in the current White House and work down from there. The point is that there is a lot of fake outrage and need to virtue signal by the left. Embracing anti-science transgenderism is an example of ignoring reality so as to play to your base.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

I don't care if it actually happened or not. That is totally immaterial.

What is material is that cosplaying as an animal is precisely analogous to cosplaying as a different sex. There is no substantive difference. You can put on a costume and think you're an animal, or you can take hormones and have procedures done to put on a gender costume and think yourself a different sex.

In either case, I don't particularly care what an individual believes, no, but you don't have the right to force the rest of society to conform (won't work anyway) to your subjective beliefs. A transitioned person is no more a man/woman than a furry is whatever animal. That's the unadulterated truth.

The rest is a total misinterpretation on your part - mind reading. You're projecting your own why.

Well said. I like to think of a transWoman as a man who is using "gender appropriation." If Elon Musk is doing someting "hateful" by using the word "Karen" then it is illogical and inconsistent to give a man a pass for a greater offense. And you will watch the left avoid discussing Rachel Dolezal like the plague.

 

[ganner918]

You may have but I can link you to hundreds of examples of those on the left who did not. I could start in the current White House and work down from there. The point is that there is a lot of fake outrage and need to virtue signal by the left. Embracing anti-science transgenderism is an example of ignoring reality so as to play to your base.

Which has nothing to do with me or the point of view I've expressed here. But you're clearly not here for any sort of honest exchange of ideas, and I'm not interested in getting into a partisan pissing match. Peace, and go cats. Beat Auburn.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Which has nothing to do with me or the point of view I've expressed here. But you're clearly not here for any sort of honest exchange of ideas, and I'm not interested in getting into a partisan pissing match. Peace, and go cats. Beat Auburn.

I am here in 100% support of science.

That said, yes, beat Auburn.

 

[BlueRunner11]

Heard Michelle Obama used to be a HELL of a wrestler back in her day. Could even beat the boys they said. Also was a pretty decent linebacker. Just wild to me, some girls really can just do everything!

 

[DrH. Lecter]

Heard Michelle Obama used to be a HELL of a wrestler back in her day. Could even beat the boys they said. Also was a pretty decent linebacker. Just wild to me, some girls really can just do everything!

So as not to offend a leftist, we should refer to MO as a birthing person. I believe that is the pronoun du jour.

 

[Gassy_Knowls]

Heard Michelle Obama used to be a HELL of a wrestler Also was a pretty decent linebacker.

Decent? Shit, he had a helluva freshman season at Oregon State. 88 tackles and 7.5 sacks

 

[thabigbluenation]

How gullible are you? The litter box story is fake. But, hey, why care about pesky little things like truth and objective reality when your goal is virtue signalling your hatred of trans people and "leftists." Mission accomplished.

Its only fake until it's not. 15vyrs ago did you think we would be arguing about allowing boys to use the same bathrooms as teenage and preteen girls in schools? 20 yrs ago did you think we would be discussing schools talking to kids about gender reassignment at 5 yrs old? Did you believe sex education classes in schools, which only used to be about biology puberty and how pregnancy happens, would now be discussing anal sex and the proper usage of lubricants to include nontraditional forms of sexual activity to teenagers?

The "furries" fantasy is real and growing. So is the pedophilia is not a crime but a state of mind fantasy.

You can choose to be ignorant on the actual reality so as not to offend anyone or you can be apart of the actual adults putting a stop to the fantasy mental illness disease that liberalism is normalizing little by little.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

How gullible are you? The litter box story is fake. But, hey, why care about pesky little things like truth and objective reality when your goal is virtue signalling your hatred of trans people and "leftists." Mission accomplished.

This is part of your “honest” discussion? 🤦‍♂️

 

[Nbacats]

A definition for hermaphrodite is actually intersex.

But, if you want to identify gender by sex chromosomes, we are back to the OP. The XYs identifying as XXs have a physiological advantage over the XXs. Is it fair to the XXs to have them work hard to compete against that innate genetic advantage?

Sure, if you use archaic definitions that are well over a century old.

 

[Nbacats]

Whether fake or not is just a distraction. You did not say Furries are fake. They are not. Lets go back to the root not the distraction. Jessie Smolette was fake too as are the vast majority of hate crimes reported on campus. Yet that doesn't stop your hatred and gullibility. I do not hate trans people. That is another virtue signal by you to attempt to demonize those whose scientific based logic is not something you can argue against. Why do you hate science?

Straw man

 

[Nbacats]

You may have but I can link you to hundreds of examples of those on the left who did not. I could start in the current White House and work down from there. The point is that there is a lot of fake outrage and need to virtue signal by the left. Embracing anti-science transgenderism is an example of ignoring reality so as to play to your base.

lol at completely ignoring the fake outrage on the right, that's their entire political platform. They getting more outraged over a handful of transgender students competing than they are over school shootings.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Gender dysphoria is a mental disorder. I will no sooner encourage it than I would someone who thought they were a golden lab. I'm polite to them and my support ends there.

 

[sambowieshin]

I agree with much of what you said. Your blanket "Teachers" should say the vast majority of teachers. There are some teachers who in fact are pushing the agenda, mostly in the University setting but that trickles down to the k-12 eventually from the coastal elites to the cities and then it becomes "normal."

It has become impossible to avoid the spiral we have entered in order to make everyone happy. We saw in VA what happens eventually. You allow an XY who wears a dress to use a female bathroom so you dont get sued. He rapes a girl and rather than admit the policy is idiotic....they make it hush hush and transfer the kid to another school where he does it again. Teachers in a horrible situation because of elected woke officials who force this lunacy down their throats. Sometimes lunacy must settle to its most ridiculous level so it can be rejected.

Agree with a lot of that

 

[sambowieshin]

Don't waste my time....you're not honest and I am too tired tongiht to read more of your nonsense.
It's happening. It's been reported. 99% is such a bogus number. Goodnight.

Ok cite some verifiable specific examples of teachers pushing trans agenda. I'm curious because I actually think over 99 percent of teachers don't gaf about this issue beyond being forced by their own students/families into having to deal with it.

 

[DrH. Lecter]

lol at completely ignoring the fake outrage on the right, that's their entire political platform. They getting more outraged over a handful of transgender students competing than they are over school shootings.

When there are as many teachers pushing school shootings as they are trans agenda then we will get concerned.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

lol at completely ignoring the fake outrage on the right, that's their entire political platform. They getting more outraged over a handful of transgender students competing than they are over school shootings.

Strawman.

Your own private Idaho.