The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[The-Hack]

that small sliver of land is not worth risking global stability.

Lol.

That “small sliver of land,” is the size of Texas. And short of America’s Mississippi valley, the most productive grain-producing soil on earth.

Maintenance of its production of foodstuffs, alone, is critical to global stability.

 

[SDC888]

This is so totally wrong. That sliver of land is global stability. Lose it w/o Ukraine's agreement and the world's bad actors will be encouraged. I can't imagine why that isn't obvious.

No idea why you think Europe stability isn't at risk with their solid support of Ukraine's effort.

INdeed, no less propagandized.

What's obvious to you is simply and precisely just that, obvious to you.

 

[bcw1029]

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and both sides are equally propagandized. The west in thinking this is some noble cause for freedom and democracy, the Russkis with fight against Nazism. It's exceedingly easy to manipulate people, especially when you are just telling them what they want to hear from their a priori assumptions.

The real question is, "is it worth it, is it neccessarty, is the risk/reward there?" The true answer is very clearly no: that small sliver of land is not worth risking global stability. OUr way of life and values are not under threat, nor is European stability or even western hegemony. This is why the "best" pro-war argument is a strawman, drawing on inappropriate historical analogy in an attempt to make the case we must fight this war.

We can beat any threat Russia/China pose to us by a myriad of other means than just war.

Unfortunately, it’s not just about “some small sliver of land.” That’s oversimplification. You have convinced yourself that it is, but it’s about a lot more than that.

Both sides heavily utilize propaganda and your point about manipulation is correct.

 

[SDC888]

Unfortunately, it’s not just about “some small sliver of land.” That’s oversimplification. You have convinced yourself that it is, but it’s about a lot more than that.

Both sides heavily utilize propaganda and your point about manipulation is correct.

It's not oversimplifying.

Anyone who was paying attention before February last year knew this was about the Donbas, Crimea and SE Ukraine in general, not Ukraine as a stepping stone towards Russian imperial domination of Europe and not about democracy, western values, or more broadly, the liberal world order.

They also knew this would inevitably result in a hot conflict if proactive measures towards peace weren't taken.

 

[The-Hack]

Anyone who was paying attention before February last year knew this was about the Donbas, Crimea and SE Ukraine in general, not Ukraine as a stepping stone towards Russian imperial domination of Europe and not about democracy, western values, or more broadly, the liberal world order.

Someone should have told Putin this was just “about the Donbas, Crimea and SE Ukraine in general,” and he could have saved thousands of troops attacking in three prongs hundreds of miles from any of those objectives.

 

[SDC888]

Someone should have told Putin this was just “about the Donbas, Crimea and SE Ukraine in general,” and he have saved thousands of troops attacking in three prongs hundreds of miles from any of those objectives.

That fails to make the point you think it does, of course.

 

[SDC888]

Lol.

That “small sliver of land,” is the size of Texas. And short of America’s Mississippi valley, the most productive grain-producing soil on earth.

Maintenance of its production of foodstuffs, alone, is critical to global stability.

SE Ukraine is not the size of Texas, and peace (even one that favors Russian control of it) serves that end better than war.

 

[Wildcats1st]

The war is escalating without any talk of bridging any gap. The USA is on the precipice of giving it at least allowing the use of f16s in Ukraine. While there are no discussions of exit strategy’s. Russia putting nukes in Belarus. Things are not headed in a positive direction. There is an escalation happening here, unprecedented between multiple nuclear powers. The way Russia see it, for every US made or British cruise missile that is an attack by the USA and Britain. And no I’m not paranoid that’s what’s happening and tbh idgaf. The forces of war and death are prevailing across the globe. Like I said before this war may not be the biggest threat. Israel is out of time they have to attack Iranian nuclear facilities to prevent the development of an Iranian nuclear weapons program with multiple nukes. There isn’t a thread about that but the two issues are inextricably linked. Iran is providing drones, there is reciprocity from Russia. They aren’t selling Russia those drones in goodwill.

Then look. Israel daily is striking hezbolah in Syria. They are supposed to warn the Russians before bombing any areas but in recent times havent been coordinating. Idk what you guys know about the Israelis or the ayatollahs who believe it is prophetical to use nuclear weapons to reclaim Jerusalem for Islam thus enabling the messiah to enter through the golden gate of the old city. Then the far right (where Netanyahu is) in Israel who welcome a nuclear attack on Jerusalem even promoted it next to what you call the western wall. They want destruction to build the third temple. They believe this is prophetic for the messiah to come. Most practicing Israelis welcome this.

Russia is right in the thick of all of it. I don’t think my concern lies with a total nuclear global exchange. My concern is for Israel and what’s building. I believe this war in Ukraine is diverting attention away from the biggest problems that need to be dealt with which is irans nuclear and ballistic missile programs. As a Jewish person who has a son considering making Aaliyah and enlisting in the IDF. Well I’d like the world to calm down.

 

[The-Hack]

That fails to make the point you think it does, of course.

Actually it does!!

[Such simple argument is hardly worthy of ridicule by imitation . . . just shout “no,” and I’ll shout, “yes.”]

 

[The-Hack]

SE Ukraine is not the size of Texas, and peace (even one that favors Russian control of it) serves that end better than war.

If “that end” is the continued production of food stuffs, you might be shocked to learn that Ukraine under Russian control was an agricultural mess.

I’m not sold that Putin’s authoritarian grip that tightens daily would serve farm production efficiency better than did the Communist grip.

 

[SDC888]

Actually it does!!

[Such simple argument is hardly worthy of ridicule by imitation . . . just shout “no,” and I’ll shout, “yes.”]

I'm not ridiculing your "argument," merely stating as a matter of fact that it's not logically relevant to the point I made. And I don't care about your ridicule, your typical snark, that you just shout "Yes! " I posted a Ukrainian advisor to Zel himself who stated unreservedly the initial phase of the Russian war was an effort to get Ukraine to quickly capitulate Donbas without protracted conflict.

If “that end” is the continued production of food stuffs, you might be shocked to learn that Ukraine under Russian control was an agricultural mess.

I’m not sold that Putin’s authoritarian grip that tightens daily would serve farm production efficiency better than did the Communist grip.

Russia isn't communist, and unsurprisingly, what they did under communism is again, something not logically relevant to the point I made.

They would most certainly not have the same agricultural mess. That's without question... you'll just shout Yes! anwyay, and use your conflated "arguments." I know.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

The war is a good thing because we are evidently gaining an export market in natural gas and fossil fuels, even though we dip into our reserves, gas prices are expected to rise this summer, we are not energy independent, we have grid instability and brownouts, need to get rid of gas stoves, etc. It’s a hardwired win.

 

[JumperJack]

Someone should have told Putin this was just “about the Donbas, Crimea and SE Ukraine in general,” and he could have saved thousands of troops attacking in three prongs hundreds of miles from any of those objectives.

Moving the fight away from an area you wish to annex without destroying would seem to make sense.

 

[The-Hack]

Moving the fight away from an area you wish to annex without destroying would seem to make sense.

Napoleon said, “When you set out to take Italy, then take Italy.”

The Russians lost hundreds of their best air assault troops at Hostomel Airport, north of Kiev in a failed attempt to take the whole damn country, and destroy its government, in a matter of days.

To parrot Putin’s propaganda, spewed weeks after his failed multi-prong invasion, that he was only after the Donbas, is as comedic as Mel Brook’s song about Hitler only wanting a “little peace . . . a little piece of Poland and a little piece Austria . . . .”

 

[The-Hack]

I posted a Ukrainian advisor to Zel himself who stated unreservedly the initial phase of the Russian war was an effort to get Ukraine to quickly capitulate Donbas without protracted conflict.

Link?

 

[RunninRichie]

Napoleon said, “When you set out to take Italy, then take Italy.”

The Russians lost hundreds of their best air assault troops at Hostimel Airport, north of Kiev in a failed attempt to take the whole damn country, and destroy its government, in a matter of days.

To parrot Putin’s propaganda, spewed weeks after his failed multi-prong invasion, that he was only after the Donbas, is as comedic as Mel Brook’s song about Hitler only wanting a “little peace . . . a little piece of Poland and a little piece Austria . . . .”

Whats interesting is the ''elite'' VDV lost to border guard troops at hostomel. Most didn't even have combat training or experience and were green recruits.

 

[The-Hack]

even though we dip into our reserves, gas prices are expected to rise this summer, we are not energy independent, we have grid instability and brownouts, need to get rid of gas stoves, etc. It’s a hardwired win.

There may be brownouts, but that has nothing to do with shipping natural gas to Europe.

Our 2023 production of oil and gas shows record setting production levels to date.

The U.S. Oil Industry Is Trending Toward A Record-Breaking 2023

So far, my prediction that total U.S. oil production will set a new annual record in 2023 is on track to be correct.

www.forbes.com

“In conclusion, the first third of 2023 has shown promising signs for U.S. oil production, with the potential to surpass the previous annual record set in 2019. While it remains a close call, the EIA's projections for 2023 and 2024 agree that the industry is on track to achieve new records in the coming years. This growth will undoubtedly help blunt the influence of OPEC and Russia on the U.S. economy and energy landscape.”

 

[The-Hack]

we are not energy independent,

Hmmmm.

U.S. Energy Independence Has Grown

Recently-released data from the Energy Information Administration shows that by one measure, U.S. energy independence increased in 2021.

www.forbes.com

 

[vhcat70]

Hmmmm.

U.S. Energy Independence Has Grown

Recently-released data from the Energy Information Administration shows that by one measure, U.S. energy independence increased in 2021.

www.forbes.com

It's all the windmills killing eagles & solar panels imported from China.

 

[Spica Orbit]

Economic war failure

 

[The-Hack]

The war is a good thing because we are evidently gaining an export market in natural gas and fossil fuels,

That’s one of the six effects I described, above, answering the query as to what “winning” is, or what it looks like.

But there are really others.

In reality the Russian attack on Ukraine, and its potential positives for nations that do not mimic authoritarianism, is the same process/dynamic that has unfolded since the sinking of the Spanish Armada.

England in 1588 was hardly a Democratic Haven, but had come much further along the path to Democracy than had the Spanish Monarchy.

Still, the English declared they were fighting for the rights of man, and the world’s potential for civilization.

Republics and Democracies (or nations seeking democratization) have not gone undefeated in that time span. But the trend has favored the more representative and open societies over the more dictatorial ones. This trend has obviously been led by the UK and the US, each with their own warts and shortcomings.

Ukraine is far from an ideal society, primarily because of the selfishness and
senselessness leftover from its long association with authoritarian Russia, and then the totalitarian Soviet Union.

But like Briton in 1588, Ukraine has moved more forward along the path toward constitutional stability than has it’s attacker. That and our support might not be enough to provide victory, but given history, I wouldn’t bet against them.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

There may be brownouts, but that has nothing to do with shipping natural gas to Europe.

Our 2023 production of oil and gas shows record setting production levels to date.

The U.S. Oil Industry Is Trending Toward A Record-Breaking 2023

So far, my prediction that total U.S. oil production will set a new annual record in 2023 is on track to be correct.

www.forbes.com

“In conclusion, the first third of 2023 has shown promising signs for U.S. oil production, with the potential to surpass the previous annual record set in 2019. While it remains a close call, the EIA's projections for 2023 and 2024 agree that the industry is on track to achieve new records in the coming years. This growth will undoubtedly help blunt the influence of OPEC and Russia on the U.S. economy and energy landscape.”

Ah, the win of war.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Hmmmm.

U.S. Energy Independence Has Grown

Recently-released data from the Energy Information Administration shows that by one measure, U.S. energy independence increased in 2021.

www.forbes.com

Oh. So we dive into the reserves, beg the Saudis, and dabble in other oil producing countries because we are independent?

Hhhhhmmmm

Biden’s Executive Overreach Kills American Energy Independence

Creeping executive overreach, not envisaged by Congress in the original missions or purposes of cabinet agencies, is driving up the price of energy and energy-related products. This is raising costs for all Americans, and poor and middle-class people are disproportionately paying the price.

www.heritage.org

 

[The-Hack]

Oh. So we dive into the reserves, beg the Saudis, and dabble in other oil producing countries because we are independent?

We hit the Saudi’s up for increased production to lower Russia’s profiteering in oil, and hurt their funding source for the war.

We produce far more basic foodstuffs than we need to eat in the US, but Putin’s invasion briefly added 50 percent to the value of corn grown in Iowa. We could (and soon will) produce 150 percent of our own energy needs, but if there is a sudden need for more oil/gas in a large market, prices will increase in our own market, because in capitalism goods and services flow quite freely across borders and oceans.

 

[The-Hack]

Ah, the win of war.

That’s kind of what they concluded:

“This growth will undoubtedly help blunt the influence of OPEC and Russia on the U.S. economy and energy landscape.”

Again, not our war, not our invasion, but if benefits accrue to us because of Russian stupidity and aggression, so be it.

I like benefits accruing to the US.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Was talking with my bro who is in intel in Latin America. The discussion was how confused Americans are on the facts because they didn’t begin to pay attention until there became a full scale war. That’s what I think about a lot of people posting in this thread. I remember when the original thread was made in December of 21 and many people had no idea why there would be war, denied there would be war called it Sabre rattling, didn’t understand what had happened in 2014, and even as recent as 2020 with Ukrainians attempting genocide in the east. I remember educating vh who didn’t know where or what Donbas was or what significance the dnipro river has. If you weren’t paying attention for the last 9 years idk how you can have a valid opinion now? So many people have taken liberty on the facts because they didn’t experience them in real time. They are playing the revisionist game. Hack seemed to be another and several more who didn’t jump into the Putin is hitler boat until after Russia launched a full scale war.

Btw he said ukraine has tried to start their counter offensive 3 times and each time Russia has gone on the attack causing Ukraine to reevaluate their strategies. Right now ukraine is doing what the elites in the us want and trying to freeze the war. Ukraine wants the freeze until they get the f16s it seems even though there has been no green light for them.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Oh. So we dive into the reserves, beg the Saudis, and dabble in other oil producing countries because we are independent?

Hhhhhmmmm

Biden’s Executive Overreach Kills American Energy Independence

Creeping executive overreach, not envisaged by Congress in the original missions or purposes of cabinet agencies, is driving up the price of energy and energy-related products. This is raising costs for all Americans, and poor and middle-class people are disproportionately paying the price.

www.heritage.org

I don’t think people realize we sell our oil. Then buy it for the same price sometimes more from opec. We are sending our energy independence to Europe and buying from opec. America lost its way when America stopped taking care of America in order to try and manipulate every global movement. Pretending the world are our pawns is coming to an end. We are in a very weak position now.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Was talking with my bro who is in intel in Latin America. The discussion was how confused Americans are on the facts because they didn’t begin to pay attention until there became a full scale war. That’s what I think about a lot of people posting in this thread. I remember when the original thread was made in December of 21 and many people had no idea why there would be war, denied there would be war called it Sabre rattling, didn’t understand what had happened in 2014, and even as recent as 2020 with Ukrainians attempting genocide in the east. I remember educating vh who didn’t know where or what Donbas was or what significance the dnipro river has. If you weren’t paying attention for the last 9 years idk how you can have a valid opinion now? So many people have taken liberty on the facts because they didn’t experience them in real time. They are playing the revisionist game. Hack seemed to be another and several more who didn’t jump into the Putin is hitler boat until after Russia launched a full scale war.

Btw he said ukraine has tried to start their counter offensive 3 times and each time Russia has gone on the attack causing Ukraine to reevaluate their strategies. Right now ukraine is doing what the elites in the us want and trying to freeze the war. Ukraine wants the freeze until they get the f16s it seems even though there has been no green light for them.

You lose us when you make these "genocide" claims.

 

[Wildcats1st]

You lose us when you make these "genocide" claims.

You’re right. Genocide is the wrong term ethnic cleansing is more appropriate

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

You’re right. Genocide is the wrong term ethnic cleansing is more appropriate

Bwahahaha, thats why we don't take you or your "contacts" seriously.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Bwahahaha, thats why we don't take you or your "contacts" seriously.

You can’t read dude. You’re incapable of comprehension. That line about genocide had nothing to do with my bro. He’s not my contact. He was a mentor at one point in my life and any idiot could figure out i wasn’t at that point giving his thoughts rather my own regarding how ignorant you peddlers of war were before the war started. Further I didn’t say Ukraine committed genocide, i said they “attempted genocide” which in fact they have done since 2014. They have wanted to systemically wipe out Russian speaking people in the east and the culture. It has been an ethic cleansing and yes an attempted genocide. Now look dude i was trying to make nice by being agreeable with you but the bottomline is you read what you want and interpret how best suits you. That’s why you have this lock step view with absolutely zero divergent thinking. You’re fix mindsetted. I don’t give a shit if you take my words seriously. I mean who are you anyway to act the way you do? It’s borderline narcissism. Tbh you need help. I mean the first 6 mos of the war you were incapable of discussion. all you could do was call people names. Now you revert back. I’m not taking your crap guy so I will continue now after extending the agreeable olive branch, i will continue to rip your ass everytime you lie or everytime you act like a child with games and calling names. You just proved the point of everyone. You read what you wanted then tried to misinform by manipulating my verbiage.

My words
“with Ukrainians attempting genocide in the east.”

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

You can’t read dude. You’re incapable of comprehension. That line about genocide had nothing to do with my bro. He’s not my contact. He was a mentor at one point in my life and any idiot could figure out i wasn’t at that point giving his thoughts rather my own regarding how ignorant you peddlers of war were before the war started. Further I didn’t say Ukraine committed genocide, i said they “attempted genocide” which in fact they have done since 2014. They have wanted to systemically wipe out Russian speaking people in the east and the culture. It has been an ethic cleansing and yes an attempted genocide. Now look dude i was trying to make nice by being agreeable with you but the bottomline is you read what you want and interpret how best suits you. That’s why you have this lock step view with absolutely zero divergent thinking. You’re fix mindsetted. I don’t give a shit if you take my words seriously. I mean who are you anyway to act the way you do? It’s borderline narcissism. Tbh you need help. I mean the first 6 mos of the war you were incapable of discussion. all you could do was call people names. Now you revert back. I’m not taking your crap guy so I will continue now after extending the agreeable olive branch, i will continue to rip your ass everytime you lie or everytime you act like a child with games and calling names. You just proved the point of everyone. You read what you wanted then tried to misinform by manipulating my verbiage.

My words
“with Ukrainians attempting genocide in the east.”

I never equated your "contacts" to this specific issue Poindexter. I meant in general as you throw them out there repeatedly like we're impressed or something. We aren't.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

That’s kind of what they concluded:

“This growth will undoubtedly help blunt the influence of OPEC and Russia on the U.S. economy and energy landscape.”

Again, not our war, not our invasion, but if benefits accrue to us because of Russian stupidity and aggression, so be it.

I like benefits accruing to the US.

I appreciate your responses and position, but when we are giving billions in war support, it is our war, we just don’t have to fight it.

 

[Wildcats1st]

I never equated your "contacts" to this specific issue Poindexter. I meant in general as you throw them out there repeatedly like we're impressed or something. We aren't.

Yes you did, you conflated the two. Don’t reply to me again. I’d put you on ignore bc you’re a carrot but alas you started the thread so I can’t. I mean this post you just made looks like a 3rd grader. Peace

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Yes you did, you conflated the two. Don’t reply to me again. I’d put you on ignore bc you’re a carrot but alas you started the thread so I can’t. I mean que ven this post you just made looks like a 3rd grader. Peace

Your brother, according to you, views this like you do. Yes I guess I did conflate those 2. Its still laughably wrong. Putting people on ignore is weak if you ask me.

 

[jameslee32]

Other than hospitals, schools, apartments, houses, stores, office buildings and power plants he's right.

 

[The-Hack]

I

Yes you did, you conflated the two. Don’t reply to me again. I’d put you on ignore bc you’re a carrot but alas you started the thread so I can’t. I mean this post you just made looks like a 3rd grader. Peace

I’m having this one framed!

Calling someone a “carrot,” and then ending with “I mean this post you just made makes you look like a third grader. Peace.”

Ooooo, Kaaaaay!

Put my arse on ignore, but make note that that I am an eggplant!

Keep this ish up, and I’m bringing my 4 year old Nephews’ “Poopy Diaper Head” back out,

AND GETTING THIS THREAD SHUT DOWN AGAIN!!!

 

[The-Hack]

You lose us when you make these "genocide" claims.

BOOM!!!

[I preferred the old 2022 predictions of eminent (sort of) Nuclear War.].

 

[Wildcats1st]

Your brother, according to you, views this like you do. Yes I guess I did conflate those 2. Its still laughably wrong. Putting people on ignore is weak if you ask me.

I don’t think you could read the Cat in the Hat and understand it. You’re not a serious person

 

[The-Hack]

Hack seemed to be another and several more who didn’t jump into the Putin is hitler boat until after Russia launched a full scale war.

Oh, Wildcats1st, I had an opinion prior to the full-scale invasion, but until then I allowed my shyness and modesty to govern.

With the slaughter the first few days, I cast my reticence to the wind: to Hell with Putin, I will boldly post where few have posted before!!