Semi-Finals UKNorse Vs. GonzoCat90

[DraftCat]

Welcome to the Semi-Finals Voters the participants have built a team that they believe can win more championships within 5 years. Participants explain in the thread on why you believe your team is better than your opponents.

Voting will be 2 days. Your vote will be public. You can change your vote if your participant argument sways you to change positions.

Playoff bracket - https://challonge.com/7epo0lnm

@UKNorse - Nikola Jokic, Bradley Beal, Jamal Murray, Lauri Markkanen, Brandon Ingram, Kevin Love, Hassan Whiteside, Dejounte Murray, Danny Green, OG Anunoby

@GonzoCat90 - Kawhi Leonard, Donovan Mitchell, Ben Simmons, Malcolm Brogdon, Jaren Jackson Jr, Terrance Ross, Montrezl Harrel, Derrick Favors, Monte Morris, Jerami Grant

 

[DraftCat]

Click on the players name to watch the highlights from this last season! Might help if it is a player that you aren't sure of or haven't seen play a lot.

Starters

PG - Jamal Murray........6-4, 207lb......22 years old
SG - Bradley Beal.........6-5, 207lb......26 years old
SF - Brandon Ingram....6-9, 190lb......21 years old
PF - Kevin Love............6-10, 251lb....30 years old
C - Nikola Jokic...........7-0, 250lb......23 years old

Bench

PG - Dejounte Murray....6-5, 170lb....21 years old
SG - Danny Green.........6-6, 215lb....31 years old
SF - OG Anunoby..........6-8, 232lb....21 years old
PF - Lauri Markkanen....7-0, 240lb....21 years old
C - Hassan Whiteside..7-0, 265lb....31 years old

 

[GonzoCat90]

A few things:

I have the best player in the world with two finals MVPs.

I have 3 franchise players.

No one on my team is older than 28.

I built the best defensive team in the tournament.

I have 7 guys who shot better than the league average from 3.

I have 3 guys who finished top 25 in blocks.

I can play any style. Big, small, half court, transition--anything.

Ben Simmons will always be surrounded by 4 shooters, similar to how the Bucks used Giannis.

 

[GonzoCat90]

A few more:

Jokic is Norse's only facilitator.

His starting lineup is awful defensively. Awful.

No one on his bench can get their own shot.

Jamal Murray had a lower true shooting percentage than Marcus Smart. In fact, my own Monte Morris had a higher PER, TS%, assist/turnover ratio, and box plus/minus.

Kevin Love will be 31 when the season starts and played 22 games last year. Danny Green is 32. Dejounte Murray missed all of last season with a torn ACL. Brandon Ingram has a blood clot issue that kept him out the entire end of the season.

Hassan Whiteside is a team cancer that is 31 years old.

 

[morgousky]

Issue at this point with Norse is defense. Who on that team can stop the ball at this point? Leonard would have a field day I’m afraid.

 

[DraftCat]

Issue at this point with Norse is defense. Who on that team can stop the ball at this point? Leonard would have a field day I’m afraid.

Who's stopping Jokic on his team? At least I have multiple bodies to throw at Leonard and who cares if he gets his? I got every spot on the floor that can shoot the ball. His team has to go through Leonard and I guess the ineffiencent chucker in Mitchell? Lets not talk about half court Ben Simmons

 

[hotelblue]

Issue at this point with Norse is defense. Who on that team can stop the ball at this point? Leonard would have a field day I’m afraid.

norse is going to kill me, but i think i May agree. norse has the better offensive 5 imo but kenneth farried would be better for that team than kevin love. just a bit too slow and defensive lacking imo. still the closest vote this draft for me. in 5 years jokic is the best player imho and murray probably 2nd or 3rd. but gonzo probably stronger the first couple years cuz kawhi is the best player right now. this one is tough.

 

[hotelblue]

if gonzo has a more conventional pg or one with experience he’d have got my vote. simmons to me is the head scratcher and/or x factor and that’s an unknown.

murray is going struggle against most pg’s defensively but playing simmons does him a favor and makes him the quickest player on the floor. no doubt norse is scoring 105+ against anybody. but how much will he give up? can they neutralize the inside board?

 

[GonzoCat90]

If I'm stronger in the first few years and then Danny Green, Kevin Love and Hassan Whiteside retire, while Kawhi is just 33 and Simmons/Mitchell are in their prime, I don't see how it takes it then either.

 

[DraftCat]

norse is going to kill me, but i think i May agree. norse has the better offensive 5 imo but kenneth farried would be better for that team than kevin love. just a bit too slow and defensive lacking imo. still the closest vote this draft for me. in 5 years jokic is the best player imho and murray probably 2nd or 3rd. but gonzo probably stronger the first couple years cuz kawhi is the best player right now. this one is tough.

I'm not hating! I would argue that Leonard as good as he is does require "load management" the rest of his career. He could easily go south as a player. His playmaking skills aren't that great to keep him elite if his athleticism declines.

As much as Gonzo likes to bash my defense. All of my players are young and as we all know defense gets better with age. I would say Ingram could hold his own vs Kawhi in year 2 or 3 if he doesn't become an allstar himself now that he's out of Lebrons shadow.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Besides, we aren't playing each other. It's the entire league. It's who wins the most titles. Not who wins a 7 game series.

If you think you're winning a title with a slow center as your best player in 2019, I don't know what to tell you.

There's not one player on his roster who can run a team. How do they score when Jokic subs for Whiteside who has two assists in his entire career?

 

[GonzoCat90]

I'm not hating! I would argue that Leonard as good as he is does require "load management" the rest of his career. He could easily go south as a player. His playmaking skills aren't that great to keep him elite if his athleticism declines.

As much as Gonzo likes to bash my defense. All of my players are young and as we all know defense gets better with age. I would say Ingram could hold his own vs Kawhi in year 2 or 3 if he doesn't become an allstar himself now that he's out of Lebrons shadow.

If Brandon Ingram gets to develop into someone that can guard Kawhi then Mitchell gets to be DWade with a jumper and Simmons gets to be LeBron.

If Giannis, Klay and Draymond couldn't stop him, Brandon Ingram might as well just go practice falling down.

 

[GonzoCat90]

On the Simmons thing:

I can play a lineup like Milwaukee used with Giannis.

Brogdgon at point (43% from 3)

Mitchell and Kawhi on the wings (better versions of Bledsoe and Middleton)

Simmons at the 4 but facilitating on the break after he gets rebounds

and Jaren Jackson (36% from 3 as a rookie, 1.5 blocks per game in 25 minutes) like a more mobile Brook Lopez.

 

[DraftCat]

If Brandon Ingram gets to develop into someone that can guard Kawhi then Mitchell gets to be DWade with a jumper and Simmons gets to be LeBron.

If Giannis, Klay and Draymond couldn't stop him, Brandon Ingram might as well just go practice falling down.

Ingram has the length and the height to develop into an unreal defender.. Mitchell is what he is unless he gets more efficient. Simmons we all know needs a jump shot to become Lebron Light... Simmons mental fortitude right now is that he's scared sh**less to shoot the three ball. In the playoffs that kills a team. Thank God Simmons had Butler and Harris and Embiid on his squad this last year or we'd be killing him.

You are relying on Kawhi putting out 30+ a game and Mitchell becoming a legit 2 option. I think he's more of a 3rd option personally. I understand you think you have shooters on your squad but most of them are untested as you like to use the word "inexperienced" Who has been in the big moments on your team?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Ingram has the length and the height to develop into an unreal defender.. Mitchell is what he is unless he gets more efficient. Simmons we all know needs a jump shot to become Lebron Light... Simmons mental fortitude right now is that he's scared sh**less to shoot the three ball. In the playoffs that kills a team. Thank God Simmons had Butler and Harris and Embiid on his squad this last year or we'd be killing him.

You are relying on Kawhi putting out 30+ a game and Mitchell becoming a legit 2 option. I think he's more of a 3rd option personally. I understand you think you have shooters on your squad but most of them are untested as you like to use the word "inexperienced" Who has been in the big moments on your team?

Well Kawhi is a two time Finals MVP.

You've got Danny Green and Kevin Love that were carried to the Finals. Aside from that, Jokic, Beal and Murray haven't won a thing. Ever.

Mitchell is a legit #1 option already. He averaged 23 points a game on a team that made the playoffs the last two years. And that was between Rubio and Ingles. Think he'll have a bit more help here.

Edit to add: Mitchell has the same freakish length, plus the lateral quickness and strength to use it. Coming into the league he was pegged as a lockdown defender. He's just had to carry the offensive load for Utah, but that whole organization preaches that if you don't defend you don't play.

 

[DraftCat]

When it comes down to it. I think Jokic matches Leonard impact on the game. I have the best shooters top to bottom that will make it tough for you to keep up. My young guys starters will not only get better defensively but my bench defensive young guys should get better offensively as well.

I also believe that my team out of every team in this tournament was built cohesively. You couldn't name one player that is playing out of position or wouldn't work flawless in my offensive

 

[Aike]

Went with Norse. Love his offensive versatility and he has just enough D with OG, DG, and Beal.

And Gonzo has two Cardinals, which causes me to question his team’s overall character. Just have a feeling they’ll blow it when the going gets tough.

 

[GonzoCat90]

When it comes down to it. I think Jokic matches Leonard impact on the game. I have the best shooters top to bottom that will make it tough for you to keep up. My young guys starters will not only get better defensively but my bench defensive young guys should get better offensively as well.

I also believe that my team out of every team in this tournament was built cohesively. You couldn't name one player that is playing out of position or wouldn't work flawless in my offensive

I could.

You have no facilitator outside of Jokic, so you're playing off cuts and motion. Brandon Ingram is an isolation player from head to toe. Brad Beal is a pull up jump shooter when he's at his best.

If you want to start comparing shooters top to bottom we can. You have Danny Green at 45%. Your next best is Murray at 37%.

I have Brogdon at 43%. Morris at 41%. Ross at 38% and Kawhi at 37%, all ranked higher.

For all your talk about Simmons and what he does to an offense, Dejounte Murray shot 27% from 3. Anunoby shot 33%. Ingram shot 33%. And two of those are two of the only 3 defenders you've got.

 

[DraftCat]

I could.

You have no facilitator outside of Jokic, so you're playing off cuts and motion. Brandon Ingram is an isolation player from head to toe. Brad Beal is a pull up jump shooter when he's at his best.

If you want to start comparing shooters top to bottom we can. You have Danny Green at 45%. Your next best is Murray at 37%.

I have Brogdon at 43%. Morris at 41%. Ross at 38% and Kawhi at 37%, all ranked higher.

For all your talk about Simmons and what he does to an offense, Dejounte Murray shot 27% from 3. Anunoby shot 33%. Ingram shot 33%. And two of those are two of the only 3 defenders you've got.

No facilitator? Did you not see what Bradley Beal did when Wall went down this season? Heck Murray almost averages 5 assists a game and runs an unreal pick and roll with Jokic IN REAL LIFE. Wait did you also not notice how well Ingram ran the point when Lonzo got hurt?

False narratives running wild

 

[hotelblue]

Besides, we aren't playing each other. It's the entire league. It's who wins the most titles. Not who wins a 7 game series.

lol if that were the case i should be champion with the first two years lmao

 

[GonzoCat90]

lol if that were the case i should be champion with the first two years lmao

Hey I tried but you gave up lol.

 

[GonzoCat90]

No facilitator? Did you not see what Bradley Beal did when Wall went down this season? Heck Murray almost averages 5 assists a game and runs an unreal pick and roll with Jokic IN REAL LIFE. Wait did you also not notice how well Ingram ran the point when Lonzo got hurt?

False narratives running wild

Lol no he didn't. He had a higher turnover percentage than assist percentage. He finished with a negative value over replacement. Any random league average bench player would be better.

So aside from shooting poorly, defending poorly, and turning it over more than he makes a good play, I guess he's great.

 

[DraftCat]

Lol no he didn't. He had a higher turnover percentage than assist percentage. He finished with a negative value over replacement. Any random league average bench player would be better.

So aside from shooting poorly, defending poorly, and turning it over more than he makes a good play, I guess he's great.

Who you talking about lol? Bradley Beal?

 

[GonzoCat90]

Sure? If you aren't considering the rest of the Wizards roster. He literally played with boarder line D-League players after Wall got injured. I wouldn't attack Beal in this matchup if I was you. 25-5-5 nothing to sneeze at.

I was talking about Ingram, my bad.

Beal is a good player. Percentages were down this year because he had to try to do too much.

But that's why I don't think his assist numbers mean much this year either. James Harden isn't a great facilitator just because he accumulates assists. The ball is just always in his hands.

Same with Beal this year. He's closer to a 3 assist guy than a 5 assist guy. Which is fine, that's not his game.

 

[drcats2013]

Went Norse, but I don’t feel great and am subject to change. Top to bottom I like Gonzo, starting 5 I like Norse. At this point, I’m just not sure how well an offense with Simmons, Mitchell, and Leonard flows. If Gonzo can enlighten me , I may change. If you’ve already said it somewhere, just copy and paste, lol.

 

[DraftCat]

Went Norse, but I don’t feel great and am subject to change. Top to bottom I like Gonzo, starting 5 I like Norse. At this point, I’m just not sure how well an offense with Simmons, Mitchell, and Leonard flows. If Gonzo can enlighten me , I may change. If you’ve already said it somewhere, just copy and paste, lol.

Thanks for the early vote... I do think Leonard and Mitchell can flow together but Simmons does seem like the odd one out. What would happen if my team decides to shut down Ben Simmons, Malcolm Brogdon, and Jaren Jackson Jr and let Leonard and inefficient chucker Mitchell get theirs? You may be playing 4 on 5 at that point.

Strategically I do think my team has more options to get defensive stops. As you said my starting 5 offensively anyone on my team can get you 20 each night (starters play most in post-season) So pick your poison.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Went Norse, but I don’t feel great and am subject to change. Top to bottom I like Gonzo, starting 5 I like Norse. At this point, I’m just not sure how well an offense with Simmons, Mitchell, and Leonard flows. If Gonzo can enlighten me , I may change. If you’ve already said it somewhere, just copy and paste, lol.

I mentioned it above. I can use him like the Bucks used Giannis.

Brogdon is already a known fit.

Mitchell and Kawhi are better versions of Bledsoe and Middleton.

Jaren Jackson is a young, more mobile and athletic Brook Lopez.

Or just let him play defense, rebound and push in transition, then play him along the baseline or in the high post. He posts point guards and goes around other 4s.


I think that's a much easier solution than "how is this entire starting 5 going to guard anyone?"

 

[DraftCat]

I mentioned it above. I can use him like the Bucks used Giannis.

Brogdon is already a known fit.

Mitchell and Kawhi are better versions of Bledsoe and Middleton.

Jaren Jackson is a young, more mobile and athletic Brook Lopez.

Or just let him play defense, rebound and push in transition, then play him along the baseline or in the high post. He posts point guards and goes around other 4s.


I think that's a much easier solution than "how is this entire starting 5 going to guard anyone?"

This all goes back to what I was attacking you in earlier rounds. You drafted players who all need the ball in theirs hands. While my team has a defined role top to bottom. You would have to convince Leonard and Mitchell that Ben Simmons would be the ideal PG (although no one will guard him in half court which leads to tighter defense on your two star players)

Bottom line you want the ball in Kawhi hands. Which in turn as the playoffs showed us this year Simmons is not yet a playoff performer.

So should I let Leonard and inefficient Mitchel get theirs? Tight guard the rest of the team? I believe that gives me the W. I have too many options offensively and no one to double team without getting brutally burned.

 

[dvillecatfan]

Going gonzo..he has Leonard and my guy...Ben Simmons.

 

[GonzoCat90]

This all goes back to what I was attacking you in earlier rounds. You drafted players who all need the ball in theirs hands. While my team has a defined role top to bottom. You would have to convince Leonard and Mitchell that Ben Simmons would be the ideal PG (although no one will guard him in half court which leads to tighter defense on your two star players)

Bottom line you want the ball in Kawhi hands. Which in turn as the playoffs showed us this year Simmons is not yet a playoff performer.

So should I let Leonard and inefficient Mitchel get theirs? Tight guard the rest of the team? I believe that gives me the W. I have too many options offensively and no one to double team without getting brutally burned.

You can't tight guard the rest of the team. You can't tight guard anyone.

I can play Simmons like Giannis or I can play him like Draymond. Somehow that worked despite Steph and Durant both "needing the ball."

If it really bothers you, just sit Simmons and go Brogdon, Mitchell, Kawhi, Jackson, Harrell. Or sub in Favors for rim protection. Or sub in Ross for another elite 3 point shooter.

Or I can go with Kawhi at the four.

Brogdon, Ross, Harrell, Favors are all super low usage. Morris is one of the most efficient players in the league.

Like I said, there's all kinds of options. If NBA teams couldn't stop him from nearly averaging a triple double at age 22 with someone like Embiid clogging the lane, I think he'll do just fine here.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Conversely, if you insist on this being a head to head matchup:

I put Favors (who led the league in defending at the rim and was 90th percentile challenging jump shots) on Jokic, Kawhi on Beal, Brogdon on Murray and then what?

You playing though Brandon Ingram? Kevin Love in the quarter of the season he's healthy?

Because there's no offense off the bench to help. Danny Green only scores standing still.

 

[GonzoCat90]

When is the last time a center was the best player on a title team?

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Gonzo has the best team imo. Defensive minded players that are not limited on offense ..

 

[DraftCat]

Gonzo has the best team imo. Defensive minded players that are not limited on offense ..

Change your vote? Heck IDK why I didn't see this before... but who in the hell his PG for the 2nd unit? Bunch of non-ball handlers.

How's he going to score? my 2nd unit is defensively better than my 1st unit. I'm suppose to believe a 2nd unit without a capable PG is going to score against my 2nd unit? Okay.

 

[LukaszObrzut]

Change your vote? Heck IDK why I didn't see this before... but who in the hell his PG for the 2nd unit? Bunch of non-ball handlers.

How's he going to score? my 2nd unit is defensively better than my 1st unit. I'm suppose to believe a 2nd unit without a capable PG is going to score against my 2nd unit? Okay.

Brogdon?

 

[DraftCat]

Brogdon?

He's in his starting line up.... Maybe Gonzo needs to post his starting lineup instead of us making it up for him.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Change your vote? Heck IDK why I didn't see this before... but who in the hell his PG for the 2nd unit? Bunch of non-ball handlers.

How's he going to score? my 2nd unit is defensively better than my 1st unit. I'm suppose to believe a 2nd unit without a capable PG is going to score against my 2nd unit? Okay.

You can't draft Jokic and Murray then pretend you don't know Monte Morris is good.

At the very least he played this year and shoots better than 30% for his career. Terrence Ross actually played a bench role this year and scored 17 a game doing it. If I bring Harrell off the bench he's the best player on either bench by a long shot.

And for the third time, this is about which team wins the most titles over five years. They aren't just going to play each other three times a week for the next 260 weeks.

 

[DraftCat]

You can't draft Jokic and Murray then pretend you don't know Monte Morris is good.

At the very least he played this year and shoots better than 30% for his career. Terrence Ross actually played a bench role this year and scored 17 a game doing it. If I bring Harrell off the bench he's the best player on either bench by a long shot.

And for the third time, this is about which team wins the most titles over five years. They aren't just going to play each other three times a week for the next 260 weeks.

No one in the NBA is scared of Monte Morris. I'm not sure why you keep hyping him up. I did the research he averaged 5-2-1 a game in the playoffs! Don't be deceiving people he's a fraud who can't get on the court when it matters.

Terrance Ross hasn't even been in the playoffs yet after 7 seasons......

 

[bbn93]

Monte Morris was average in the regular season. He was almost unplayable in the playoffs though. I think he was like 0-20 from 3.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Monte Morris was average in the regular season. He was almost unplayable in the playoffs though. I think he was like 0-20 from 3.

How'd Dejounte Murray do? OG Anunoby?