Question for you all who have coached a lot...

[H00SIER-Cat]

I read on here you can't just start playing zone and be effective. Would that be any worse than some of what we've seen so far? Serious question, I'm really not trying to be dramatic/chicken little.
Or was Georgia scoring 96 just a matchup problem? Or an outlier?

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

We're getting there. Still a long way to go but we're getting better on D and I have been a huge critic of them on that side of the ball. Continuity would help. Thiero being out, Bradshaw and now Z, all messing with consistency. If we can play good d by March, you gotta give Cal credit. It hasn't been easy. In the meantime, we get better and hang 100 on a few along the way.

 

[tf4fun]

We're getting there. Still a long way to go but we're getting better on D and I have been a huge critic of them on that side of the ball. Continuity would help. Thiero being out, Bradshaw and now Z, all messing with consistency. If we can play good d by March, you gotta give Cal credit. It hasn't been easy. In the meantime, we get better and hang 100 on a few along the way.

We need a guard to step up and take on the challenge.. DJ has the ability to be a effective defender... He needs some of that Alfa dog attitude and take it personal when someone goes off on him!

 

[BlueWorldOrder74]

We're getting there. Still a long way to go but we're getting better on D and I have been a huge critic of them on that side of the ball. Continuity would help. Thiero being out, Bradshaw and now Z, all messing with consistency. If we can play good d by March, you gotta give Cal credit. It hasn't been easy. In the meantime, we get better and hang 100 on a few along the way.

You say this, but kenpom D numbers have been getting worse by the game. I’m no coach though.

 

[Ron Swanson]

While UK's defense does need work, UGA didn't break 50 until almost the 15 minute mark of the 2nd half. That seems to indicate we just got complacent and lazy after being up almost 30 points. We started reverting to more of an exhibition style of play and let a better than expected UGA team score a lot of easy points late in the game. However, the outcome was never really in question. I would expect to see us play USC closer to how we played UGA for the first 35 minutes.

 

[Catman100]

Two things can be right regarding the UGA game:

1. UK called off the dogs on both ends of the court and UGA outscored us in the 2nd half.
2. Our defense is really bad.

At this point I just don't know what would be the harm in trying something new.

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

You say this, but kenpom D numbers have been getting worse by the game. I’m no coach though.

Yes, me either but the eye test is real and I'd say the last 8 minutes of the last game was enough to affect the kenpom numbers. FWIW, they did not pass any tests during that 8 minutes...eye test or otherwise. Maybe the worst defense I've ever witnessed. I've seen better from jr high girls teams. Not joking.

 

[Jamal Mercer]

it’s probably true that you can’t just tell the guys to play zone without a few weeks of prep and be affective.

But, there’s no reason to not practice it and be able to use it when needed.

 

[KAB Cats]

Not a coach, but there is a reason so many coaches have an underlying hate of zone defense. I don't think that's a unique view to Calipari. Gillispie used to lose his shit any time it was suggested. Generally, man to man is the most effective defense. So, I suspect they'd rather put effort towards fixing flaws in man to man rather than putting time towards a form of defense that generally is a fallback for less athletic teams.

but i dont know shit either

 

[UKBB4Ever]

You say this, but kenpom D numbers have been getting worse by the game. I’m no coach though.

Ken Pom numbers are phony.

He doesn’t count offensive rebounds as a possession.

Take Mo. I think they got 12 offensive rebounds against us. Add 12 possessions to their total for a real number.

Ga didn’t get as many. 6 or 7.

Add 6 possessions to their total.

Wasn’t a good last 8 minutes of a blowout.

 

[yoshukai]

Ive not coached a lot but I’ve played quite a bit . IMO a zone can be an effective “change of pace” tool , but I certainly wouldn’t want it as a base defense. ESPECIALLY since the 3pt shot was implemented.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

This thread won't mean shit until we hear from GoHerd's coaching wisdom..

 

[Mike-McD]

While UK's defense does need work, UGA didn't break 50 until almost the 15 minute mark of the 2nd half. That seems to indicate we just got complacent and lazy after being up almost 30 points. We started reverting to more of an exhibition style of play and let a better than expected UGA team score a lot of easy points late in the game. However, the outcome was never really in question. I would expect to see us play USC closer to how we played UGA for the first 35 minutes.

I guess you didn't watch the game.

The refs gift wrapped about 10 points to GA in that stretch which shrank our margin substantially.;

 

[Ron Swanson]

Zone takes a while to teach and to become good at. Particularly at this level. It's also generally better if the players are a bit more experienced playing together. As others have already pointed out, it really is a fallback defense for less atheltic/smaller teams. Cal would rather spend the time attempting the fix the man D than waste the time teaching them a D they probably wouldn't be any more effective at.

 

[Blue_2_the_bone]

Zone is what you use when you either want to keep guys out of foul trouble or you believe you’re less athletic than the opponents you’re guarding. Now in the old Syracuse/Boheim zone, that was different. It was recruited for and played differently than most teams who just keep a zone in their back pocket.

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

Ive not coached a lot but I’ve played quite a bit . IMO a zone can be an effective “change of pace” tool , but I certainly wouldn’t want it as a base defense. ESPECIALLY since the 3pt shot was implemented.

I agree that it's nice to have and use at times, even if just to get your legs under your team at times and to change things up, especially coming out of the other teams timeouts. They draw up a play for man d, throw a zone at them for a couple of possessions. I also think that our time right now is better spent coaching man defense to this team. It's been a tough year with players coming in late, like Bradshaw and now Z. And of course Thiero has been out for a while but he's experienced and should catch back up fast. I think we'll be fine when it has to be. Cal has always gotten serious about playing D with young teams about now on the schedule. Behind a lot, yes. But I do think we'll look a lot different in the next few weeks. They seem to be responding now and getting better. Way too many lapses, being out of position and mistakes right now but it seems like we're just waiting for the light bulb to come on, to me. And it seems like it's close to coming on...to me. So much of our problem is fundamental stuff and this team seems to play up to the level of the competition, too much. Time will tell but I think we have the pieces and that we'll be there soon. Can you imagine what we'll be like then? Holy crap!

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

Zone is what you use when you either want to keep guys out of foul trouble or you believe you’re less athletic than the opponents you’re guarding. Now in the old Syracuse/Boheim zone, that was different. It was recruited for and played differently than most teams who just keep a zone in their back pocket.

Yes, he recruited long, athletic players for his zone. Wait a minute...Lol! Still, I think we need to focus on our man d for now.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I guess you didn't watch the game.

The refs gift wrapped about 10 points to GA in that stretch which shrank our margin substantially.;

Lol, well I watched enough to know we gave up 61 in the 2nd half. So what's the excuse for the other 51 points?

 

[X-Man96]

The second half of that UGA game was a perfect storm of bad defense and bad officiating.

We got up almost 30 and got lazy on D. That's a no brainer. It happens to everyone. UGA obviously has some pride and wanted to not get blown out. Kudos to them for playing hard until the final whistle.

Also, the refs got lazy in a blowout and stopped calling things on UGA and started calling tons of fouls on UK, giving UGA tons of FTs to close the gap. 17 of their second half points were at the free throw line.

If you watch the second half UGA was using TONS of moving screens to get the ball handlers clear paths to the basket. UK didn't adjust AT ALL and UGA kept doing it time after time because they were getting wide open layups. That is on Cal AND the players for not recognizing what was going on and on the refs for not calling them.

All of this is very specific to the UGA game. As for the rest of the season, I don't really know. Our guards get beat waaaay too often, especially considering we almost always have a 7-footer in the game to protect the rim. I think we will improve.

 

[$Z71$]

Two things can be right regarding the UGA game:

1. UK called off the dogs on both ends of the court and UGA outscored us in the 2nd half.
2. Our defense is really bad.

At this point I just don't know what would be the harm in trying something new.

The difference in our defensive ranking and a top 30 defensive ranking is only 4.2 points per 100 possessions. So only .042 points per possession. It's literally 1 more defensive stop per game. The difference between top 30 defense and our 73 ranking is so narrow. We will never be elite defensively, but our defense by years end will be just fine.

The people who moan and groan otherwise don't understand how it works or is calculated. Don't just look at the rankings, look at the overall numbers. One game could jump us to the top 50, the sample size is too small for an accurate depiction at this point in the season.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

Incredibly, many on here might be happy with the current man to man defense if somebody was willing to convince players to box out on all shots.

Boxing out until the rebound is secured would yield huge benefits: decrease opponents possessions (and increase ours), widen the scoring margin, and decrease fouls (on putback shots).

Groundbreaking, I know.

Whoever's got the blue phone to Cal's office......please tell him that boxing out should be THE TWEAK.

 

[yoshukai]

I agree that it's nice to have and use at times, even if just to get your legs under your team at times and to change things up, especially coming out of the other teams timeouts. They draw up a play for man d, throw a zone at them for a couple of possessions. I also think that our time right now is better spent coaching man defense to this team. It's been a tough year with players coming in late, like Bradshaw and now Z. And of course Thiero has been out for a while but he's experienced and should catch back up fast. I think we'll be fine when it has to be. Cal has always gotten serious about playing D with young teams about now on the schedule. Behind a lot, yes. But I do think we'll look a lot different in the next few weeks. They seem to be responding now and getting better. Way too many lapses, being out of position and mistakes right now but it seems like we're just waiting for the light bulb to come on, to me. And it seems like it's close to coming on...to me. So much of our problem is fundamental stuff and this team seems to play up to the level of the competition, too much. Time will tell but I think we have the pieces and that we'll be there soon. Can you imagine what we'll be like then? Holy crap!

I agree with all of this . Also , I believe this would be the hardest time in history to try and teach man to man defense. They are a lot more lenient with carrying the ball , the euro step, no closely guarding 5 second count , and the rules changes have made taking a charge very subjective. It’s very inconsistent what is and is not called a foul nowadays. Even more than before.

 

[kingdom come cat]

I'm no coach but learning some zone can't be like rocket science. Just have it ready in case of emergency. I will add I think we just got a lot better on defense with addition of Big Z if one game qualifies as an example. Stays down with good timing on blocking shots, and not jumping to just be jumping. Rebounded well in this game wasn't afraid of mixing it and getting physical under the basket, and has very long reach without jumping. Needs to work on positioning as all our big men do especially around the basket. That showed out with all our big men getting pinned in under the basket the last two games and not being able to help out on drives.

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

Incredibly, many on here might be happy with the current man to man defense if somebody was willing to convince players to box out on all shots.

Boxing out until the rebound is secured would yield huge benefits: decrease opponents possessions (and increase ours), widen the scoring margin, and decrease fouls (on putback shots).

Groundbreaking, I know.

Whoever's got the blue phone to Cal's office......please tell him that boxing out should be THE TWEAK.

I'd have to go back and look but game before last, I did look and we held our own on the glass in that game. I looked at how many opportunities we had to grab an offensive board vs them. We both grabbed half of the opportunities. Yes, gotta get better and blocking out is just a fundamental thing and it's mostly about hustle, I think But I see improvement. Now with Z and with Thiero coming back, I think the numbers will improve but they'd really improve with just fundamental block outs. You're absolutely right, IMO.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

I'm no coach but learning some zone can't be like rocket science. Just have it ready in case of emergency. I will add I think we just got a lot better on defense with addition of Big Z if one game qualifies as an example. Stays down with good timing on blocking shots, and not jumping to just be jumping. Rebounded well in this game wasn't afraid of mixing it and getting physical under the basket, and has very long reach without jumping. Needs to work on positioning as all our big men do especially around the basket. That showed out with all our big men getting pinned in under the basket the last two games and not being able to help out on drives.

Keep in mind that ALL of these kids have played zone before. It's not like we're teaching them to speak Mandarin.
Granted, yes it takes some time to get comfortable, but that's what practice and midseason are for!

And it's not like we're comparing a defunct zone against a stellar M2M at this point......so honestly it can't be any worse!!!! Teams are shooting threes over the top of our M2M and are slashing us through the lane.

At least with a zone you can take away one of the two options!

C'mon Cal. You can do it!!!!!

 

[nickhorvathsuxazz]

I like zone presses when you're guarding full or 3/4 court

 

[ukfan1622]

Georgia getting 96 was a combination of pace of play and our young players spending the last 10 minutes celebrating the victory. I've said it before but if the players were getting paid by margin of victory UK would have won that game about 118-85.

Nobody liked them letting off the gas and I'm sure Cal was more pissed about it than anybody but as long as they don't let off the gas with less than a 29 point 2nd half lead I won't complain about it.

Edit note: I have never coached. This was just a layman opinion. But I feel that if I had coached I would have been one of the greats.

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

I agree with all of this . Also , I believe this would be the hardest time in history to try and teach man to man defense. They are a lot more lenient with carrying the ball , the euro step, no closely guarding 5 second count , and the rules changes have made taking a charge very subjective. It’s very inconsistent what is and is not called a foul nowadays. Even more than before.

I agree but if we just do our thing and do it better than we have been....We can't control the whistle. Just gotta do our job and let the coach deal with refs as much as possible. Bad officiating is everywhere and it's been bad for several years. Just getting worse, it seems. Either way, we gotta play the hand we are dealt and I don't whine much about it because it doesn't change anything, especially after the game is over.

Like others have said, seems like the 3 second rule just isn't being called anymore, either way, so we just have to play that way, too.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

I'd have to go back and look but game before last, I did look and we held our own on the glass in that game. I looked at how many opportunities we had to grab an offensive board vs them. We both grabbed half of the opportunities. Yes, gotta get better and blocking out is just a fundamental thing and it's mostly about hustle, I think But I see improvement. Now with Z and with Thiero coming back, I think the numbers will improve but they'd really improve with just fundamental block outs. You're absolutely right, IMO.

Agreed. We did a lot better last game, but it wasn't because we blocked our men out. The ball just happened to bounce our way more than in other games.

I run a drill with my kids where they jog a circle around the free throw line. Without warning, I throw the ball up on the glass and let them fight for it. Every man for themselves. I keep stats for the group. Whenever someone gets 5, they get to go to the side basket to shoot free throws while the rest of the team runs a suicide. Then we do it again.

It's incredible to watch, as even without being instructed, the players naturally find someone to battle for the rebound (and end up boxing out to get an advantage). Sure, it's a melee, but in that regard, it also teaches TOUGHNESS.

 

[DDMatUK=NBA]

Agreed. We did a lot better last game, but it wasn't because we blocked our men out. The ball just happened to bounce our way more than in other games.

I run a drill with my kids where they jog a circle around the free throw line. Without warning, I throw the ball up on the glass and let them fight for it. Every man for themselves. I keep stats for the group. Whenever someone gets 5, they get to go to the side basket to shoot free throws while the rest of the team runs a suicide. Then we do it again.

It's incredible to watch, as even without being instructed, the players naturally find someone to battle for the rebound (and end up boxing out to get an advantage). Sure, it's a melee, but in that regard, it also teaches TOUGHNESS.

Love it, Coach!

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Georgia getting 96 was a combination of pace of play and our young players spending the last 10 minutes celebrating the victory. I've said it before but if the players were getting paid by margin of victory UK would have won that game about 118-85.

Nobody liked them letting off the gas and I'm sure Cal was more pissed about it than anybody but as long as they don't let off the gas with less than a 29 point 2nd half I won't complain about it.

That's a good way to put it. Margin of victory. If the players made their bank in margin of victory, the game isn't close.

 

[ukfan1622]

I agree with all of this . Also , I believe this would be the hardest time in history to try and teach man to man defense. They are a lot more lenient with carrying the ball , the euro step, no closely guarding 5 second count , and the rules changes have made taking a charge very subjective. It’s very inconsistent what is and is not called a foul nowadays. Even more than before.

Oh, and Reeves has developed an awesome euro step.

 

[bnewt]

it’s probably true that you can’t just tell the guys to play zone without a few weeks of prep and be affective.

But, there’s no reason to not practice it and be able to use it when needed.

UK is basically half way through the season. The zone is something that they should have been practicing. That is why it is called practice. I just wonder if offense is the only thing that is practiced. I see little if any improvement in defense, rebounding, boxing out or even setting & using screens. Ga scored 3 times on inbounds plays that resulted in a wide open lay up. Has UK EVER scored on any inbounds play that got them a wide open lay up? I can't remember one.

 

[Rockfly78]

In many ways a zone is a total waste of athleticism. This team is built for man to man. You see teams run a lot of zone when they lack athleticism because it helps eliminate driving lanes. But I do love a zone on inbound situations. I think that’s something we should do for sure.

 

[mebeblue2]

Ive not coached a lot but I’ve played quite a bit . IMO a zone can be an effective “change of pace” tool , but I certainly wouldn’t want it as a base defense. ESPECIALLY since the 3pt shot was implemented.

much like feed the ball inside as your base offense, zone defense is outdated only to be used on rare occasions

 

[ColonelCat]

it’s probably true that you can’t just tell the guys to play zone without a few weeks of prep and be affective.

But, there’s no reason to not practice it and be able to use it when needed.

I believe that we should zone the opponents o/b plays. We saw that the other night when UGA got 3 layups om OB under their bskt.. One of our bigs on the ball and the rest zoning an area. Make them make a play instead of giving them one.

 

[St.PatterSoN-54-]

In many ways a zone is a total waste of athleticism. This team is built for man to man. You see teams run a lot of zone when they lack athleticism because it helps eliminate driving lanes. But I do love a zone on inbound situations. I think that’s something we should do for sure.

Syracuse was arguably the nation's premier zone defense team under Boeheim for years. Some of Jimmy B's very best defensive teams were uber-athletic.

Great athletes can play great defense regardless of scheme.

It's all about mixing up looks on defense to keep offenses guessing and resetting.

It's more important that good footwork is employed, that players are taught to keep their hands-up, and taught how to properly close out with solid rebounding fundamentals are stressed than any actual scheme that's employed.

 

[JonathanW]

Don't just look at the number of points we are allowing. That is misleading, because of our pace on offense we are creating more possessions for both teams, and more possessions = more points. Also our rebounding isn't great, which means more 2nd-chance points for the other team. Even after considering those, our defense hasn't been good, just saying it's not as simple/bad as saying 96 points is bad.
Also, UGA scored a lot at the line, essentially every trip down the last 10 minutes was a basket or a foul. Hmmm. I've never been a conspiracy guy, but the past few years you got to wonder if Vegas/refs is affecting the margin of victory (not saying they are changing who wins, just by how much).

Defense is about EFFORT!!!! If you don't put in the effort playing M2M, then you probably won't playing Zone either. Zone is also known to hurt your rebounding, because you may not have a man to block out, and we are already not a good rebounding team.
BUT, I do think it is good to have Zone "in your toolbox" able to use it from time to time, to switch things up and keep the offense guessing. They only have so many seconds in a possession to figure out the defense and then how to attack it.

 

[yoshukai]

I agree but if we just do our thing and do it better than we have been....We can't control the whistle. Just gotta do our job and let the coach deal with refs as much as possible. Bad officiating is everywhere and it's been bad for several years. Just getting worse, it seems. Either way, we gotta play the hand we are dealt and I don't whine much about it because it doesn't change anything, especially after the game is over.

Like others have said, seems like the 3 second rule just isn't being called anymore, either way, so we just have to play that way, too.

Yep . And with our depth , a bad whistle shouldn’t hurt us as much as most teams .

 

[ib4ky]

A few things I noticed rewatching the UGA game, pertaining to UK defense:

1). UK brought their "5" out of the lane on the THREE of the wide open UGA baskets on out of bounds plays under their basket, to (I assume) face up with Tchewa at 17' who is not an outside threat????? Simple picks by UGA and no help/ communication on defense.

2. UK up 80-55, Reeves had his layup blocked, Z got the rebound at the foul line and got mauled, no foul, missed the spin dunk, UGA got the rebound and Rahim hit a 3-pointer, stupid, senseless foul by Dilly on shot and CJC/ UK got a Technical (refs SUCKED) and Rahim makes 3-free throws. UGA picked up 6-points with no time off the clock, score 80-61. Also, if Z had completed that dunk, Rupp Arena would have absolutely went nuts!!! Big momentum change.

3). All three UK bigs continually got manhandled by Tchewa parking himself in the lane (Bradshaw was helpless)!!! Also, ZERO sense why the refs didn't call Tchewa for a 3-second violation the WHOLE game!!!!!!
Whatever the procedure is for reporting poor officials to the SEC league office, UK should have made that happen at 8am this morning!!!!