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POLITICAL THREAD

How will they rule ??!

  • YES - Qualified

    Votes: 41 82.0%

  • NO - Disqualified

    Votes: 9 18.0%
  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
Pelosigalore said:
I’ll read later, but are you comparing health outcomes of America with other countries that are mostly middle/upper class honkies?
Click to expand...

There's no comparison there either, it's not just that our rich are richer than others but our middle class are richer and our poor are richer and everyone is richer here other than the extreme case of skid row and drug addicts etc.

These fools have no clue what that means and that what they are actually asking for is to be poorer financially and physically health wise, but if everyone else has it just as bad and doesn't know it then what's the harm? no idea just how good you have it now wrt to other countries it's ridiculous

https://www.businessinsider.com/california-economy-ranks-5th-in-the-world-beating-the-uk-2018-5

1. United States $19.391 trillion
2. China $12.015 trillion
3. Japan $4.872 trillion
4. Germany $3.685 trillion
5. California $2.747 trillion
6. United Kingdom $2.625 trillion
7. India $2.611 trillion
8. France $2.584 trillion
9. Brazil $2.055 trillion
10. Italy $1.938 trillion
11. Texas $1.696 trillion
12. Canada $1.652 trillion
13. New York $1.547 trillion
14. South Korea $1.538 trillion
15. Russia $1.527 trillion

The economies of some of our states alone can outperform the total output of very wealthy countries two or three or ten times the size.

These people are total fools, proudly proclaiming themselves socialist which is every bit as detestable and despicable as a national socialist.
 
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Pelosigalore said:
I’ll read later, but are you comparing health outcomes of America with other countries that are mostly middle/upper class honkies?
Click to expand...
Oh of course, we have worse health outcomes because of all those darn minorities. I shoulda known it was them again, the rascals!
 
rqarnold said:
GDP <> individual income. Oh, Ireland, Norway and Switzerland all have higher GDP/capita than the US...and have universal healthcare.
Income_Canadian_Cities_median_after_tax_feature.png


So this discussion has been going on for 30+ years in the US...you know...how to lower the cost for those who need it. Where are those ideas?

The way capitalism works is that those with a product look to find that sweet spot with pricing that maximizes profit. That pricing will most always exceed the abilities of some to pay. For many items that results in differing levels of quality, luxury, features in order to hit price points that most can afford. If I need an automobile I can pay from $1M+ for some exotic or $500 for some used clunker, if I need a place to live I can buy a multi-million $ mansion or pitch a tent down by the river. If I need clothing I can go to Brooks Brothers or to the thrift shop.
Whereas if I'm in an accident or contract an illness I have one system offering one level of care. That system is legally and morally bound to deliver the best care available regardless of my ability to pay for those services and that care. If they take shortcuts that result in poor outcomes that were preventable then those same providers become targets for lawsuits and even criminal prosecution.
The flip side of that is if their treatment is a process, requires regular visits, prolonged medications and/or therapy the person who is unable to pay is SOL. So a diabetic without insurance could laps into a diabetic coma, be rushed to the hospital, incur $100,000 of expenses being nursed back to health, released and prescribed insulin to control their condition. But because they cannot pay the $1300/month for insulin nor the cost of seeing their endocrinologist they go without either. Soon they relapse back into another diabetic coma, are transported to the ER and the previous cycle described repeats but this time is even more costly due to the accumulated effects of their untreated condition.

Yes, if we pull money out of healthcare and research then it will take longer to find new cures. How do you miss what you never had?

If you want to go to an all full-blown "capitalism rules" healthcare system then accept and own that some segment of the population is going to go without access. Just stop bullshiting everyone trying to sell this idea that there's a way to get everyone care without paying for it and accept the fact that providers will continue to push up the cost of services to milk the most money possible from the system.
Click to expand...

You realize Switzerland. Norway and Canada have much higher prices than in the USA? You also realize GDP per capita is not the average salary of a nation’s people? It is the total GDP divided by the total number of people to show the value on a per person basis? Switzerland for instance will have a much higher GDP per capita because it is a small wealthy nation. If you look at the GDP pp of the EU it is significantly lower than the USA or Switzerland. Also I’m not sure if that graphic you attached is in CAD or USD.
 
Last edited:
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rqarnold said:
GDP <> individual income. Oh, Ireland, Norway and Switzerland all have higher GDP/capita than the US...and have universal healthcare.
Income_Canadian_Cities_median_after_tax_feature.png


So this discussion has been going on for 30+ years in the US...you know...how to lower the cost for those who need it. Where are those ideas?

The way capitalism works is that those with a product look to find that sweet spot with pricing that maximizes profit. That pricing will most always exceed the abilities of some to pay. For many items that results in differing levels of quality, luxury, features in order to hit price points that most can afford. If I need an automobile I can pay from $1M+ for some exotic or $500 for some used clunker, if I need a place to live I can buy a multi-million $ mansion or pitch a tent down by the river. If I need clothing I can go to Brooks Brothers or to the thrift shop.
Whereas if I'm in an accident or contract an illness I have one system offering one level of care. That system is legally and morally bound to deliver the best care available regardless of my ability to pay for those services and that care. If they take shortcuts that result in poor outcomes that were preventable then those same providers become targets for lawsuits and even criminal prosecution.
The flip side of that is if their treatment is a process, requires regular visits, prolonged medications and/or therapy the person who is unable to pay is SOL. So a diabetic without insurance could laps into a diabetic coma, be rushed to the hospital, incur $100,000 of expenses being nursed back to health, released and prescribed insulin to control their condition. But because they cannot pay the $1300/month for insulin nor the cost of seeing their endocrinologist they go without either. Soon they relapse back into another diabetic coma, are transported to the ER and the previous cycle described repeats but this time is even more costly due to the accumulated effects of their untreated condition.

Yes, if we pull money out of healthcare and research then it will take longer to find new cures. How do you miss what you never had?

If you want to go to an all full-blown "capitalism rules" healthcare system then accept and own that some segment of the population is going to go without access. Just stop bullshiting everyone trying to sell this idea that there's a way to get everyone care without paying for it and accept the fact that providers will continue to push up the cost of services to milk the most money possible from the system.
Click to expand...

Your last sentence IS the issue. How many $trillions would a medicare type system for everyone cost? What will that cost every family? Every working taxpayer?

Personally, I'd have no problem with everyone having health care but I do have reasonable concerns about:

1. Government run anything. You want to make a mess of it? You want waste? Just have the government take it over.
2. If we were to have such a system, what is the financial incentive for people to become doctors? Some doctors do their work just to serve humanity, but if I'm a physician, I don't know that I want to work for government wages. I have a physician friend that makes $750K. I was shocked that he made so little with his ed, the hours he works, the strain it puts on him, etc...Give me my little $100K any day.
3. We already have a shortage of providers. We already have to wait four weeks for an appointment.
4. Cost of such a program would grossly increase our tax burden. Look at some of the numbers even the dems suggest it would cost. Unaffordable.

How about this: Allow a medicare type option for basic care...basic preventive and essential care for the poor and elderly. Just to keep you reasonably healthy and alive care. Allow physicians to opt in or out of treating those clients. Maybe have all med students practice 2 years in this system. Allow the rest of us to select our own insurance providers; our own doctors, hospitals,etc.... Allow insurers to decide what type clients they will accept with stipulations: they cover a generational cross section of clients, proportionate males/females. Once covered, they can never drop you.
If you have a pre-existing condition and don't have insurance, if a private company won't take you, you can always go into the medicare option.

I'd hate to see a situation where a poor person is not afforded the same care as a wealthy person, but the bottom line is this: IMO, it's not right to MAKE someone pay more in order to cover someone else. If a person wants to help the less fortunate, that's a personal choice and there are avenues for for that.
 
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Joerules19 said:
Nice one chief. You are the dolt suggested that one must have all the beliefs of their political party and agree with everything. Of all the dumb things I have read on this site, that is up there. Anyone, conservative or liberal, that agrees with everything their "party" pushes is truly not thinking for themselves. Congrats on that.
Click to expand...
Nailed it.
 
Joerules19 said:
Nice one chief. You are the dolt suggested that one must have all the beliefs of their political party and agree with everything. Of all the dumb things I have read on this site, that is up there. Anyone, conservative or liberal, that agrees with everything their "party" pushes is truly not thinking for themselves. Congrats on that.
Click to expand...
That's not what I said, dumbass. I said your party is trash and your leaders are united in pushing lunatic policies. Have you decided which loony dem presidential candidate you're voting for yet or are you too GD embarrassed to announce it?
 
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IdaCat said:
That's not what I said, dumbass. I said your party is trash and your leaders are united in pushing lunatic policies. Have you decided which loony dem presidential candidate you're voting for yet or are you too GD embarrassed to announce it?
Click to expand...

You must have selective memory. Someone posted, "You can be a liberal and not support everything. You get that right?"

Your response: "No, you can't"

At this rate, I won't be voting for president. I passed on the 2016 presidential election and probably will do the same again next year.
 
Joerules19 said:
You must have selective memory. Someone posted, "You can be a liberal and not support everything. You get that right?"

Your response: "No, you can't"

At this rate, I won't be voting for president. I passed on the 2016 presidential election and probably will do the same again next year.
Click to expand...
Depends on the definition of "liberal". If it is dependent on the positions of those who claim to be the leaders of liberalism, then I was correct, but I understand your point.

If you care about the future of our country, I suggest you stand against the democratic party. They are a disease.
 
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Wildcats1st said:
You realize Switzerland. Norway and Canada have much higher prices than in the USA? You also realize GDP per capital is not the average salary of a nation’s people? It is the total GDP divided by the total number of people to show the value on a per person basis? Switzerland for instance will have a much higher GDP per capita because it is a small wealthy nation. If you look at the GDP pp of the EU it is significantly lower than the USA or Switzerland. Also I’m not sure if that graphic you attached is in CAD or USD.
Click to expand...

Your post caused me to read the rest of his, against my better judgement, but he was saying I didn't understand what GDP per capita meant but he, per usual, didn't comprehend what I meant by the words gross domestic product per person as representative of the actual cost... since the actual cost exists within the economy as a whole.

His map was Canadian dollars per household, but here's a simple example to illustrate my point even further to follow his line of thinking. Let's say I'm an engineer, which means I'm above average intelligence and above average conscientiousness and bridges/buildings whatever have to be built here same as there. Google tells me the average salary is 100k US and 60k Canada, which is 45k US dollars. To keep the math simple and ignore raises cost of living etc, after taxes the American takes home 60k and the Canadian 30k.

Over the course of say a 30 year career, the American has made 1.8 million to the Candian's 900k. So when the American's trips to McDonalds finally catches up to him in the form of adult onset diabetes, he is sitting on an extra million dollars to afford himself 300 dollars a month vs 75 dollars a month. And the actual net worth of the American would be far greater if you start factoring in raises and what he could do with that money over time via investments or whatever else.

So if I'm the same pancake loving engineer here or there, the actual cost to me is lower here than there and I'm far better off here than there, no offense John Canada is still great too. And really that goes for most any career probably except for the very bottom, the very unlucky and the very destitute which we have a problem with here in more than just healthcare and like healthcare, not taking care of them increases the cost for everyone else. For healthcare, unpaid medical bills are distributed to others cost of insurance as well as the costs of ridiculous settlements for malpractice which also don't happen in socialized medicine. It's not just greedy capitalism which raised cost and socialism is never the answer because it is fundamentally wrong, incoherent, and yes evil.

Why it is never the answer can always be demonstrated with relatively simple thought experiments like I just outlined above, the rub is though the person has to be willing to think beyond the surface, which people like the paddock leftists have shown repeatedly a stark unwillingness to do so... and it's that naive ignorance is precisely what Warren will play on when she releases her plan to show that actual cost won't go up (which it will and it has to) when she raises taxes on the middle class and why so many are deceived by a simple, seductive but critically flawed argument for socialism. It has never worked because it can't work.
 
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ram1955 said:
Your last sentence IS the issue. How many $trillions would a medicare type system for everyone cost? What will that cost every family? Every working taxpayer?

Personally, I'd have no problem with everyone having health care but I do have reasonable concerns about:

1. Government run anything. You want to make a mess of it? You want waste? Just have the government take it over.
2. If we were to have such a system, what is the financial incentive for people to become doctors? Some doctors do their work just to serve humanity, but if I'm a physician, I don't know that I want to work for government wages. I have a physician friend that makes $750K. I was shocked that he made so little with his ed, the hours he works, the strain it puts on him, etc...Give me my little $100K any day.
3. We already have a shortage of providers. We already have to wait four weeks for an appointment.
4. Cost of such a program would grossly increase our tax burden. Look at some of the numbers even the dems suggest it would cost. Unaffordable.

How about this: Allow a medicare type option for basic care...basic preventive and essential care for the poor and elderly. Just to keep you reasonably healthy and alive care. Allow physicians to opt in or out of treating those clients. Maybe have all med students practice 2 years in this system. Allow the rest of us to select our own insurance providers; our own doctors, hospitals,etc.... Allow insurers to decide what type clients they will accept with stipulations: they cover a generational cross section of clients, proportionate males/females. Once covered, they can never drop you.
If you have a pre-existing condition and don't have insurance, if a private company won't take you, you can always go into the medicare option.

I'd hate to see a situation where a poor person is not afforded the same care as a wealthy person, but the bottom line is this: IMO, it's not right to MAKE someone pay more in order to cover someone else. If a person wants to help the less fortunate, that's a personal choice and there are avenues for for that.
Click to expand...

This is the difference between the United States of America and the rest of the World. Why must a group in the USA try imposing socialism that always leads to communism. WHY!
 
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What did you do, compare a train engineer in Canada vs an Aerospace engineer in the US?

My targeted and highly unassailable google research shows an average of $61k in Canada and a range of $56k-$75k in the US depending on state (the northeast and Hawaii being on the high end.)
 
Lol hilarious they are attacking Zuckerberg. First...its journalists job to fact check...not a social media platform.

What's on display here is what dems really think about ppl. That they are stupid. What they should be asking is if people believe these ads....why do they believe them over themselves? Or why would ppl believe them over journalists? They cant possibly take responsibility that ppl domt like them bc of decades of failed policy and ppl dont trust journalists bc of their selective coverage (just like they are doing now claiming its wrong to ask warren if she'll raise taxes). So what they are really mad about is that ppl wont believe their lies anymore and they are desperate to get them back.
 
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rqarnold said:
GDP <> individual income. Oh, Ireland, Norway and Switzerland all have higher GDP/capita than the US...and have universal healthcare.
Income_Canadian_Cities_median_after_tax_feature.png


So this discussion has been going on for 30+ years in the US...you know...how to lower the cost for those who need it. Where are those ideas?

The way capitalism works is that those with a product look to find that sweet spot with pricing that maximizes profit. That pricing will most always exceed the abilities of some to pay. For many items that results in differing levels of quality, luxury, features in order to hit price points that most can afford. If I need an automobile I can pay from $1M+ for some exotic or $500 for some used clunker, if I need a place to live I can buy a multi-million $ mansion or pitch a tent down by the river. If I need clothing I can go to Brooks Brothers or to the thrift shop.
Whereas if I'm in an accident or contract an illness I have one system offering one level of care. That system is legally and morally bound to deliver the best care available regardless of my ability to pay for those services and that care. If they take shortcuts that result in poor outcomes that were preventable then those same providers become targets for lawsuits and even criminal prosecution.
The flip side of that is if their treatment is a process, requires regular visits, prolonged medications and/or therapy the person who is unable to pay is SOL. So a diabetic without insurance could laps into a diabetic coma, be rushed to the hospital, incur $100,000 of expenses being nursed back to health, released and prescribed insulin to control their condition. But because they cannot pay the $1300/month for insulin nor the cost of seeing their endocrinologist they go without either. Soon they relapse back into another diabetic coma, are transported to the ER and the previous cycle described repeats but this time is even more costly due to the accumulated effects of their untreated condition.

Yes, if we pull money out of healthcare and research then it will take longer to find new cures. How do you miss what you never had?

If you want to go to an all full-blown "capitalism rules" healthcare system then accept and own that some segment of the population is going to go without access. Just stop bullshiting everyone trying to sell this idea that there's a way to get everyone care without paying for it and accept the fact that providers will continue to push up the cost of services to milk the most money possible from the system.
Click to expand...
False.
 
rqarnold said:
So diabetes and asthma affect liberals more than conservatives? Have any data to support that supposition?
Click to expand...
Look around you you, there are a lot more of fat women on the left and a lot more snowflakes who feign sicknesses on the left. easy to see. More drug abuse on the left. Hell, more neurotic behavior which also helps bring on such health matters. The deck is stacked in your favor.
 
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