Sorry I'm just getting to this guys. I can't ever tell when my health issues are going to be a headache and most of today was one of those days. Anyway, I want to clarify a couple of things.
First, I think WAR is greatly over rated and in this match-up I think it's really being depended on. Second, the more we do these and the more I have to go back and look at the old greats the less great most of them end up being to me. WAR is very good at generally pointing to quality players but it isn't great as a comparison between great players. For instance, I'd take Mays over Ruth in nearly every situation. As an all around baseball player he was simply superior. Another all time favorite, and a player I've picked before, is Walter Johnson. I'll explain more about both in individual write-ups. Oh and before I forget,
@drcats2013 yes, you're a big fat liar but you come by it naturally from your momma so you really can't be blamed for it.
On to the begging, I mean show.
1B Frank Thomas = David Ortiz :
https://www.statspros.com/david-ortiz-vs-frank-thomas-stats/
As you can see, in most stats, Ortiz is a bit better but these guys are extremely similar. Ortiz has slightly better offensive stats but Thomas was a little better defensively. Thomas did hit for a higher average. I'd rate this one as a push.
2B Ryne Sandberg < Craig Biggio :
https://www.statspros.com/craig-biggio-vs-ryne-sandberg-stats/
Again you see that Biggio is the better offensive player and by quite a bit actually. He made a lot happen with his bat. Sandberg was quite a bit better on defense while Biggio was quite a bit better offensively. In this case I was willing to give up some defense for offense. You have to score to win. I believe Biggio was the slightly better player over all. By the way, what ceiling are you talking about with Sandberg? Both these guys had long careers, they reached their ceilings. I think you were adding some fluff to that description.
SS Derek Jeter > Ozzie Smith :
https://www.statspros.com/derek-jeter-vs-ozzie-smith-stats/
Jeter was the better hitter. Period. But offense was not my goal here at all. I had my offense up the middle with Biggio. I wanted brilliant defensive play from my SS. That is probably the one position on the field to worry about defense a lot more than offense. If you can get both, great, but defense first. Ozzie was good on the bases but there is no getting around how average a hitter he was. In the same respect and maybe even to a greater extent, Jeter was an average to bad defensive SS. Jeter wins this match but not by some landslide. He was that bad on defense. Ozzie was elite on defense and I believe I have enough firepower elsewhere to stack that position with pure defense.
3B Ron Santo << George Brett : Statspros didn't have this one listed. Santo was a good 3rd baseman but Brett was great offensively and defensively. This is a landslide win.
C Ivan Rodriguez > Thurman Munson : Statspros didn't have this one listed either. Munson died young and may not have had enough background, I don't know their criteria. At any rate, Munson was an elite defensive catcher, as was Pudge. Pudge was better offensively but there is an interesting stat for Munson. In the post season, which is what we're doing here, Munson upped his hitting stats tremendously. His BA went up by 70+ points, homeruns went up, everything went up. I suspect his offensive ceiling had not been reached yet when he died, as shown by his post season numbers. My opponent wins this one.
RF Vlad Guerrero = Tim Raines : We were going for different players here. I was after a high level lead off man with a great glove and that is exactly what I got. This comparison is once again more about what you are after. He was a switch hitter, an excellent defender and was electric on the bases. Vlad crush ball. Vlad had a great arm that started failing him well before he retired but he was a quality defender. I'm giving this a push because I think we both got what we wanted in a RF.
CF Kirby Puckett <<< Willie Mays : This one does speak for itself but I want to take this a step further. In overall play, I think Mays was the best position player to ever play the game. His defense, speed and arm were breathtaking but he also hit with extreme power and for average against modern pitching. As I stated earlier, I'm having more and more trouble with these "original" legends. Babe was special but watch his film clips. Would he have kept up with Willie against the pitching Willie faced? Babes hitting was a bit better (not in every category) but the pitching was just suspect. By the way, Kirby was great, one of my favorites.
LF Babe Ruth >> Mike Trout : Trout will finish better than Ruth in some categories but is very unlikely to catch him in homeruns. Trout is much better on the bases and generally is a better defender. Babe is Babe, still known as the best but that facade is cracking a bit with more stats and research. I still say Mays was the better player. Having Babe on your team in these drafts gets votes simply on name recognition but that's the way it is.
Now for the real battle, pitching. Brilliant pitchers don't allow these great offensive players to do their thing which is why defense is so necessary.
His ace, Walter Johnson, vs my ace, Satchel Paige. Yes, I know, most of you just said whaaaaat? I'll support my position that Satchel Paige was the greatest pitcher to ever play with a lot of evidence. I just need you guys to read as much of it as you can with an open mind.
First, Walter. The man had great stats that can't be denied but was there a reason for these great stats? Most analysis these days think Walter threw at around 90mph which was a lot back then and supports my position that hitters back then didn't face the nightmare pitchers of modern baseball. My single biggest problem with Walter is when he compiled those brilliant stats. Here is his reference page.
Check out the latest Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More of Walter Johnson. Get info about his position, age, height, weight, draft status, bats, throws, school and more on Baseball-reference.com
www.baseball-reference.com
Do you notice that his ERA and other numbers suddenly got much worse and stayed that way until he retired? That is because his entire career, up until 1920, had been played in the deadball era. Every thing then was easier for pitchers and defense while batting was more difficult. The deadball period happened to run through the 1919 season and what do you know, those brilliant numbers of Walters also ran through the 1919 season. This isn't a matter of the timing being close, it was exact. I used to consider Walter the greatest pitcher to have played then in the last draft I read up a lot on Satchel. I read what his contemporaries said, reviewed his stats, longevity and so on. More on that in a bit. Here is an extremely in depth article about the deadball era.
Now, on to Satchel who spent his best years in the Negro League which deprived us all of being able to make easier comparisons with good stats but I'll give it a shot.
https://kchistory.org/week-kansas-c... was best summed,be the greatest pitcher ever. Notice in this brief article that DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Dizzy Dean and Bob Feller all named Satchel the greatest pitcher who ever played. As a publicity stunt when Satchel was signed by Kansas City and at 59 played his final game facing 3 batters and getting each one out. No one does that. It was 1965 against fully modern hitters.
Walter Johnson < Satchel Paige
Ok, now on to our 2-4 pitchers.
In nearly every comparison and in particular, in post season play, Maddux is better than Seaver. I grew up watching Seaver and disliking Maddux when I was older but the fact of the matter is Maddux was better.
Tom Seaver < Greg Maddux
Fergie Jenkins vs Juan Marichal Stats
www.statspros.com
Fergie is the better pitcher here but his entire career was played on bottom feeding teams. I mean the poor guy played on historically bad teams and that greatly affected his wins and to a lesser degree his ERA (bad fielding doesn't always mean an error, sometimes guys just suck). Overall, there isn't a huge difference in them but I'd give Fergie the slight edge. However, it's really close so I'll call it a push.
Juan Marichal = Fergie Jenkins
We're getting pretty deep into out lineups now and the differences are pretty subtle. Newhauser and Sutton are pretty much a push. Newhauser has more strikeouts and walks, Sutton has a MUCH better WHIP. As I don't think it matters at this point, I'll just call this another draw.
Hal Newhauser = Don Sutton
Saves, I'm tired, Franco had a ton of saves but played too long and lowered his stats. Wagner had a great WHIP and equaled Franco's saves in far fewer games. Both were great closers but I'll give this one to Wagner.
Billy Wagner > John Franco
Overall, my pitching staff is superior and that will negate some of DrCats offense but the decisions on this is up to you guys. I'll tag the voters so they can at least see the arguments.
@UKcats1988 @dvillecatfan @JonathanW @drcats2013 @WilmoreCat @AFSTALLION13 @Born and raised Big Blue @nickhorvathsuxazz @Cowtown Cat (get off her and change your damn vote)
@wildcat_nation28 @JLoad22
