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Victor Wembanyama Bust

No, but rings matter. Russell didn't average 32ppg or whatever it is.

You have a couple of conspiracy theories going here.

1. Stern made Jordan the Goat
2. LeBron could have won as many mvps that he wanted. Guess he didn't want them? What?

I am just stating facts here. Jordan 6-0 finals, 6 finals mvps, better ppg, better defender, equal rebounder considering significant size difference. I would say LeBron is a better passer but that's about it. He has absolutely nothing on Jordan from intangible standpoint....zero. He turns the ball of way more than Jordan, guessing around 1 more per game.

This is all you need to know:

Jordan is +45 in NBA Finals. LeBron is -86. That's a 131 pt swing....End of story. Jordan rose to occasion in biggest moments, always. LeBron did sometimes but mostly fell flat on his face.
Lol this is how I know you don't know anything. First, you say ''more ppg'' (Who's the all time NBA scoring leader btw?) when Lebron has always been a pass-first player. He's always been a point guard in a small forwards body. Then you say Jordan was a better defender backing that up primarily by listing his awards. Let me ask you. Could Jordan guard 1-5? Could Jordan chasedown block Andre Igudola on a fast break? Do you really think 6 foot 9 Lebron James wouldn't rack up the defensive awards if he was allowed to handcheck and play football on the court? And about Lebron being less clutch here's a little tidbit below if you want to read it. And again with the tired narrative of ''6 wings'' ''6-0 in the finals''. Rings are a TEAM accomplishment. Read that again.


The statistics show one thing clearly, LeBron steps up in the clutch far more strongly than Jordan did. When facing a chance to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10, or won 75% of the time. Of the eight main statistical categories, his numbers dropped in each except for free throw percentage and turnovers. He shot 9% worse, had 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks. His only impressive improvement was having .8 fewer turnovers in such games. His scoring efficiency, assists and rebounds, and overall defense all lacked in games where he could put opponents away.

However, when facing elimination Jordan stepped up in some ways. He's 5-7 in his career in elimination games, boasting a winning percentage of only 41.6%. Facing elimination, Jordan's field goal percentage, free throw percentage, steals, and turnovers all got worse. He improved in rebounds, assists, blocks, and points. While he shot worse slightly, he did score 2.7 more points per game. His rebounds and assists improved well by 1.7 each per game. However, he missed 5.7% more free throws facing elimination and turned the ball over 1.5 more times per game.

LeBron, when facing a chance to eliminate his opponent, boasts a record of 36-11, or a 76.6% winning percentage. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improved in four and remained the same in one. His rebounds, steals, blocks, and points per game all improved. He added 1.7 more rebounds, .2 more blocks, and 1.2 more points. His free throw percentage falls only .2%, his overall field goal percentage falls 2.9%, and he turns the ball over exactly the same as he does for his career. James simply gets a little more involved in games where he can finish his opponents, but many of his numbers only slightly increase in these situations.

When James is facing elimination he completely changes. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improves in seven. He shoots 3.5% better, adds 5.6 more rebounds per game, 1.8 more assists, .8 more steals, 1 more block per game, 1.3 fewer turnovers, and 9.2 more points. His only downside is his free throw percentage drops 7.9% when facing elimination. LeBron plays at a completely different level when facing elimination. He improves in his on-court efficiency in every way imaginable; scoring, rebounding, getting others involved, he vastly improves defensively, and he turns the ball over less.

In conclusion, LeBron is much more clutch than Jordan. When the two smelled blood and had a chance to eliminate their opponents, LeBron wins 1.6% more often. When their backs are against the wall, LeBron wins 16.7% more often. Jordan only improved slightly in a few categories when facing elimination. LeBron improved in almost every single category and improved incredibly when facing elimination. To say LeBron doesn't play better and more clutch in crunch time situations is absurd. LeBron James has also hit more buzzer beaters than Jordan, and more go-ahead shots with five seconds to go in the game. His field goal percentage on these shots is also higher than Jordan's.''
 
Lol this is how I know you don't know anything. First, you say ''more ppg'' (Who's the all time NBA scoring leader btw?) when Lebron has always been a pass-first player. He's always been a point guard in a small forwards body. Then you say Jordan was a better defender backing that up primarily by listing his awards. Let me ask you. Could Jordan guard 1-5? Could Jordan chasedown block Andre Igudola on a fast break? Do you really think 6 foot 9 Lebron James wouldn't rack up the defensive awards if he was allowed to handcheck and play football on the court? And about Lebron being less clutch here's a little tidbit below if you want to read it. And again with the tired narrative of ''6 wings'' ''6-0 in the finals''. Rings are a TEAM accomplishment. Read that again.


The statistics show one thing clearly, LeBron steps up in the clutch far more strongly than Jordan did. When facing a chance to eliminate an opponent, Jordan was 30-10, or won 75% of the time. Of the eight main statistical categories, his numbers dropped in each except for free throw percentage and turnovers. He shot 9% worse, had 1.4 fewer rebounds, 2.1 fewer assists, .8 fewer steals, and .6 fewer blocks. His only impressive improvement was having .8 fewer turnovers in such games. His scoring efficiency, assists and rebounds, and overall defense all lacked in games where he could put opponents away.

However, when facing elimination Jordan stepped up in some ways. He's 5-7 in his career in elimination games, boasting a winning percentage of only 41.6%. Facing elimination, Jordan's field goal percentage, free throw percentage, steals, and turnovers all got worse. He improved in rebounds, assists, blocks, and points. While he shot worse slightly, he did score 2.7 more points per game. His rebounds and assists improved well by 1.7 each per game. However, he missed 5.7% more free throws facing elimination and turned the ball over 1.5 more times per game.

LeBron, when facing a chance to eliminate his opponent, boasts a record of 36-11, or a 76.6% winning percentage. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improved in four and remained the same in one. His rebounds, steals, blocks, and points per game all improved. He added 1.7 more rebounds, .2 more blocks, and 1.2 more points. His free throw percentage falls only .2%, his overall field goal percentage falls 2.9%, and he turns the ball over exactly the same as he does for his career. James simply gets a little more involved in games where he can finish his opponents, but many of his numbers only slightly increase in these situations.

When James is facing elimination he completely changes. Of the eight main statistical categories, he improves in seven. He shoots 3.5% better, adds 5.6 more rebounds per game, 1.8 more assists, .8 more steals, 1 more block per game, 1.3 fewer turnovers, and 9.2 more points. His only downside is his free throw percentage drops 7.9% when facing elimination. LeBron plays at a completely different level when facing elimination. He improves in his on-court efficiency in every way imaginable; scoring, rebounding, getting others involved, he vastly improves defensively, and he turns the ball over less.

In conclusion, LeBron is much more clutch than Jordan. When the two smelled blood and had a chance to eliminate their opponents, LeBron wins 1.6% more often. When their backs are against the wall, LeBron wins 16.7% more often. Jordan only improved slightly in a few categories when facing elimination. LeBron improved in almost every single category and improved incredibly when facing elimination. To say LeBron doesn't play better and more clutch in crunch time situations is absurd. LeBron James has also hit more buzzer beaters than Jordan, and more go-ahead shots with five seconds to go in the game. His field goal percentage on these shots is also higher than Jordan's.''

+45, -86. Keep digging up your analytics. I'm not going to argue about this all night. Guessing you are early 30's and never saw Jordan play. All good. I've seen them both and the vast majority agree with my train of thought. I'm not reaching here, you are.

Also, yeah...LBJ has more points. He also played 5 + more seasons than Jordan. He didn't play in college...lol. I would hope he has more points. Don't act like LBJ is some pass first guy. He avg 3 less shots per game than Jordan.
 
+45, -86. Keep digging up your analytics. I'm not going to argue about this all night. Guessing you are early 30's and never saw Jordan play. All good. I've seen them both and the vast majority agree with my train of thought. I'm not reaching here, you are.

Also, yeah...LBJ has more points. He also played 5 + more seasons than Jordan. He didn't play in college...lol. I would hope he has more points. Don't act like LBJ is some pass first guy. He avg 3 less shots per game than Jordan.
Old-heads agree with you, yeah. Like I said. Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. Respect the back and forth though HH.
 
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Jesus this Lebron/Jordan argument is SO stupid. A 6'8" 270 lb forward vs a 6'6" 220 pound guard who were each as good as you can get at their position BUT PLAYED DIFFERENT POSITIONS. Which is better, apples or oranges?
The only true answer is that everybody involved in the argument is a dumbass.

Sorry but I spent almost 40 years drunk every day and I fell off the wagon today after 7 years sober and anybody that disagrees with me can kiss my ass. :)
 
Jesus this Lebron/Jordan argument is SO stupid. A 6'8" 270 lb forward vs a 6'6" 220 pound guard who were each as good as you can get at their position BUT PLAYED DIFFERENT POSITIONS. Which is better, apples or oranges?
The only true answer is that everybody involved in the argument is a dumbass.

Sorry but I spent almost 40 years drunk every day and I fell off the wagon today after 7 years sober and anybody that disagrees with me can kiss my ass. :)
I mean, Steph Curry is GOAT, so who cares?
 
Lol, I just saw this. This is a gem. Ain't no way you ever watched MJ play.

Jordan was a far better defender than LeBron. He was defensive player of the year in a season where he averaged 35ppg.

What exactly is it LBJ can/could do that Jordan couldn't?

Jordan is far and away the goat and it isn't all that close. LBJ isn't even better than Bird.
I watched Jordan from 89 until he retired.
You are bias toward Jordan and there's no sense in discussing it with you obviously. LeBron would back Jordan down time after time and there's nothing he could do about it.
 
If I was an NBA executive I would put Jordan on my team now….at his current age. Lol.

He’s the GOAT and it isn’t even close.

lBJ is a great player but if you are an NBA executive and you want to win you pick Jordan for your team every single time. One has a competitive fire that is unmatched and one demands the ball at the end of the game. The other has a tendency to disappear during big moments.
 
So I am bias for Jordan and you aren't bias for LBJ? Ok. I stated facts about their careers. You stated an opinion. I just think Jordan is better. I have zero bias. I think LBJ is great. Just don't see how anyone lands on him being better than Jordan.
I watched Jordan from 89 until he retired.
You are bias toward Jordan and there's no sense in discussing it with you obviously. LeBron would back Jordan down time after time and there's nothing he could do about it.
 
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First time I've ever weighed in on this debate. To start with both guys are winners; each could win without amazing surrounding talent and each could have won more with better surrounding talent.

Jordan was the better defender, Lebron the better passer and rebounder, and both great scorers.
It's hard to compare a 2 guard with a small forward in a power forward's body but...Lebron would be able to do a better than average job guarding Jordan on the perimeter, which was what he relied on later in his career.
Jordan would have had a hard time posting up Lebron. Jordan would have been able to do a well above average job defending Lebron on the perimeter but could not have guarded Lebron at all in the post. So one on one I'd say Lebron would be better...but it's a team game.

Maybe it's just possible for two different players to both be next level great...
 
IMO it’s disrespectful that these analysts say this kid is better than LeBron and others when they were his age. Victor played against very weak teams in the league he was in. I just don’t get all the hype, shoots only 27% from three and he’s supposed to be this generational talent….. he will end up being a broke man’s Giannis.
I thought Copper Flagg was better than James, Bird, and Kobe combined once he committed to dUKe. 😂
 
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I thought Copper Flagg was better than James, Bird, and Kobe combined once he committed to dUKe. 😂

FYI, there's a ton of buzz coming from the UCONN fanbase on Flagg. Lot of reports from their insiders and those who are close to Flagg's circles back in Maine are saying it's a done deal for Uconn, and the Duke visit is just a formality.
 
The rookie balled out tonight. For people calling him a bust, you should actually watch him play. He is special.
 
+45, -86. Keep digging up your analytics. I'm not going to argue about this all night. Guessing you are early 30's and never saw Jordan play. All good. I've seen them both and the vast majority agree with my train of thought. I'm not reaching here, you are.

Also, yeah...LBJ has more points. He also played 5 + more seasons than Jordan. He didn't play in college...lol. I would hope he has more points. Don't act like LBJ is some pass first guy. He avg 3 less shots per game than Jordan.
I’m an enormous Lebron fan and think he gets undeserved criticism most of the time. He is a top five player of all-time — no question. He lifts his team up on his back and does his best to get them to win. In his later years, it has been tough for him to do that.

Jordan is a different beast. He led his team, ensured his team won when the right players were there, and, probably most important, he made the players around him so much better with their roles. For example, Steve Kerr wouldn’t be a household name or nearly as good had Jordan not led that Bulls team. Jordan is far better than Lebron when it comes to making a team click and work. That makes a true dynasty, and makes Jordan the best player of all time.

And just for the record, I HATED those Bulls teams.
 
IF he holds up, and he can continue to grow into his body, the entire NBA has a problem for the next decade or longer.

The league has never seen a player like this.
 
Citing stats without context is kind of pointless. For example, someone pointed to stats when facing elimination, which favors LeBron. But that fails to account for the fact that of the last 7 seasons that MJ played, he only played in 2 games where his team could have been eliminated and went 1-1.

So all the stats that show his play dropped came from earlier in his career. For the last half of his career he was doing the eliminating instead of facing elimination.
 
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MJ vs. Lebron... it's obviously extremely close and they are 1A and 1B so anyone saying theres an obvious answer loses all credibility.

Physically LeBron takes it but that also goes back to a point others have made which is that they played different positions so a 1:1 comparison isn't even fully fair for that reason alone.

What gives Jordan the slight edge for me is his mentality. He would win at any cost, I'd argue he's basically a sociopath but instead of being a serial killer he chose to play basketball. Haters of LBJ will say he's never been clutch or has no mental edge which isn't true, go watch game 7 of the 2013 finals or games 5-7 of the 2016 finals. However while I can highlight those games for LeBron, Jordan had that mental edge every single playoff series, which is why he beats out LeBron for me.
 
That might be the first time ever that a three point attempt has been blocked that far into its trajectory.

Also crazy is where he starts from with some of these blocks. He’ll be standing in the lane seemingly to be a rim protector …but then in what seems like just a couple steps he’ll suddenly be out on the perimeter blocking a three-pointer.
 
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Thank you. There is no topic more annoyingly overdone on basketball boards than the tiresome LeBron vs Jordan debates.

How many times can you people do that same argument? People always say the same things, nobody ever changes anybody’s mind, it’s nothing but a tedious waste of time. Give it a rest.
Lol, first time i've ever got into a LBJ V Jordan debate. Was bored.
 
MJ vs. Lebron... it's obviously extremely close and they are 1A and 1B so anyone saying theres an obvious answer loses all credibility.

Physically LeBron takes it but that also goes back to a point others have made which is that they played different positions so a 1:1 comparison isn't even fully fair for that reason alone.

What gives Jordan the slight edge for me is his mentality. He would win at any cost, I'd argue he's basically a sociopath but instead of being a serial killer he chose to play basketball. Haters of LBJ will say he's never been clutch or has no mental edge which isn't true, go watch game 7 of the 2013 finals or games 5-7 of the 2016 finals. However while I can highlight those games for LeBron, Jordan had that mental edge every single playoff series, which is why he beats out LeBron for me.
Lebron’s performance in those 2016 finals, leading that Cavs team against that Warriors team, vaults him way way way up there in the goat conversation. I don’t think it’s enough to give him the edge over Jordan, but MJ doesn’t have anything close to that on his resume.
 
IMO it’s disrespectful that these analysts say this kid is better than LeBron and others when they were his age. Victor played against very weak teams in the league he was in. I just don’t get all the hype, shoots only 27% from three and he’s supposed to be this generational talent….. he will end up being a broke man’s Giannis.
 
Lol, I just saw this. This is a gem. Ain't no way you ever watched MJ play.

Jordan was a far better defender than LeBron. He was defensive player of the year in a season where he averaged 35ppg.

What exactly is it LBJ can/could do that Jordan couldn't?

Jordan is far and away the goat and it isn't all that close. LBJ isn't even better than Bird.
Exactly, nobody that actually watched Jordan play live would Ever say this IMO. I’d even say Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan I’ve ever seen. LeBron is without a doubt a top 5 player but I’d never select him over Jordan.
 
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Kid is way further along than I would even have imagined him. He’s gonna be amazing “if” he can stay healthy. Guys his size don’t have a great track record. That’s about all that will stop him though because he will get the superstar ref treatment.
 
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I mean, it's not a bad debut.. but at the same time it's nothing to write home about if you're the best talent since Lebron. Fwiw, Lively had a better debut with 16/10 shooting like 85%.

But it's waaaaay too early anyways. Scoot Henderson in the 1st half was like 0/6 eith 3 turnovers and one rebound. I know this because he's on my fantasy team and has -6.25 fantasy points (yes that's negative points) at this time hahaha.
 
Exactly, nobody that actually watched Jordan play live would Ever say this IMO. I’d even say Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan I’ve ever seen. LeBron is without a doubt a top 5 player but I’d never select him over Jordan.
Jordan guarded midgets. He never guarded guys like Dominique Wilkins. The one time he was on Magic in finals, Phil called a timeout and went with Scotty the rest of the way.
 
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In an all-time fantasy draft I would pick LeBron #1 because you could plug him in anywhere 1-4 and he’ll be able to do everything you need at each position at anywhere from a great to all-time level. And if you have a team that’s a little weak at the 5 offensively you can put him at the 5.

He might be the only person in league history that can do that.

But alas, back to Wemby, not a great debut, but he was dealing with foul trouble and he showed up well in the fourth quarter.
 
MJ vs. Lebron... it's obviously extremely close and they are 1A and 1B so anyone saying theres an obvious answer loses all credibility.

Physically LeBron takes it but that also goes back to a point others have made which is that they played different positions so a 1:1 comparison isn't even fully fair for that reason alone.

What gives Jordan the slight edge for me is his mentality. He would win at any cost, I'd argue he's basically a sociopath but instead of being a serial killer he chose to play basketball. Haters of LBJ will say he's never been clutch or has no mental edge which isn't true, go watch game 7 of the 2013 finals or games 5-7 of the 2016 finals. However while I can highlight those games for LeBron, Jordan had that mental edge every single playoff series, which is why he beats out LeBron for me.
The difference for me and I’ve watched both from the beginning: Jordan would not have taken the 2007 Cavaliers to the Finals.
 
I mean, it's not a bad debut.. but at the same time it's nothing to write home about if you're the best talent since Lebron. Fwiw, Lively had a better debut with 16/10 shooting like 85%.

But it's waaaaay too early anyways. Scoot Henderson in the 1st half was like 0/6 eith 3 turnovers and one rebound. I know this because he's on my fantasy team and has -6.25 fantasy points (yes that's negative points) at this time hahaha.
Agreed. Watched the game. He's a baby deer running around out there, and looks like he doesn't know what to do inside the 3-point line other than putbacks and dunks. Clearly prefers the 3-pt line. Which is amazing at 7'5" tall. I think expectations are unreasonable for him as a rookie but once he adjusts and figures it out ....
 
I mean, it's not a bad debut.. but at the same time it's nothing to write home about if you're the best talent since Lebron. Fwiw, Lively had a better debut with 16/10 shooting like 85%.

But it's waaaaay too early anyways. Scoot Henderson in the 1st half was like 0/6 eith 3 turnovers and one rebound. I know this because he's on my fantasy team and has -6.25 fantasy points (yes that's negative points) at this time hahaha.
Yeah Scoot sucked.
 
The difference for me and I’ve watched both from the beginning: Jordan would not have taken the 2007 Cavaliers to the Finals.
LeBron would have struggled to make any finals in Jordan’s era strictly because of his mentality and how they would treat him physically. Not to mention he would let have been able to hop team to team and form his best friends club.
 
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No Jordan fan at all, but dude was a monster on both ends of the floor
I mean it’s easy as hell to see, I have a 3 disc DVD set of his entire career, even though I watched every game after 1990 live because I don’t remember the 1985-1989 seasons due to being a Toddler. Even if you didn’t like him he was just watch, buy a ticket for that game. Respected by all fans at the very least for how great he was.
 
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