The West Coast shipping strike.

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by warrior-cat:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

NO, they should get as much as they can...god know that a company does the exact same thing when they have any sort of leverage.

Y'all make it seem like companies are the most honest entity on the planet. Unions aren't by any means angels either, but it's a two way street. If the Unions have leverage in this situation, then good for them to use it.

Agreed, only if it does not in the end ruin the business or lose jobs. Many jobs could be lost depending on the total amount agreed upon or, the cost is passed on to the consumer. We have seen this over the years. Also, the part about being paid for what you are worth. I have been to 3 different ports to ship military shipments over the years and only one would I recommend for a pay increase if I had a say. Charleston was like watching an ant colony work. Corpus Christie and Beaumont TX, not so much. Very lazy workers there.

But why does this thought have to only apply to these guys? Business decisions are made a million times a day where jobs are on the line. We have tons of US companies that outsource work...and it's generally been accepted.

Like I said...will never, ever begrudge people getting the max for what they think they are worth.

 

[UKRob 73]

What? Are you serious. A business owner OWNS the business. You think his workers shutting down his business, is the same as an owner making a business decision that may or may not negatively affect his business?
God you are just terrible. This entitlement mentality that you and a few others have is what's wrong with this country. Thank God for the entrepreneurs that put their skin on the line, for some of you leeches to have a job.

 

[Bill Derington]

The work stoppage is the threat each side uses in the negotiations, it's always the Unions going on strike. I'd be willing to bet that most work stoppages are when a lockout occurs from the company. It's simply a bargaining chip, that's it.

Bernie, I think you may be confusing and overtime list and a seniority list. Every overtime list I've ever heard of used worked and refused overtime on how they asked for work. Maybe where you're talking about was a different , but if it was that's not the norm in union shops.

 

[qwesley]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

NO, they should get as much as they can...god know that a company does the exact same thing when they have any sort of leverage.

Y'all make it seem like companies are the most honest entity on the planet. Unions aren't by any means angels either, but it's a two way street. If the Unions have leverage in this situation, then good for them to use it.

The bolded is stupid and something no one is saying. Using leverage is fine for any party but when there is a substantial cascading effect outside those negotiations it often crosses the line. Airline industry has abused this strategy the most.

 

[BernieSadori]

If there was OT they had to work down the seniority list. No exceptions.

 

[Dennis Reynolds]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

I keep going back to the same point - I'll never begrudge anyone for making as much as they can. Good for them! In further discussing this situation, the cost of living in a major metropolitan area is very skewed, so laborers making $150K is really no big deal. I live in NYC and I have analysts making $90K+.

Yes, because the MARKET has set that rate at $90k. There is no Analyst Union. You pay that rate because that's what everyone else in your business pays. You could probably pay less, actually. None of your analysts are threatening a strike or a work slow down where you only get 1 excel file done a week. At worst, they quit, and you hire someone else.

If these tools actually had any special skills, they might be worth the $188k they are turning down, but they don't. They are largely replaceable, if not for their union deal. They happen to work at a critical juncture in the US economy, they themselves aren't critical. Absurd that they, and you, confuse the two.

 

[UKRob 73]

Public service unions, like fire, ems, police, sewer workers etc can't strike because of the danger to the public if they were to strike. These dock workers should have the same agreement. They shouldn't be able to shut the country down while they blackmail their employer.

 

[qwesley]

Vaccine laborors should band together and demand $500 per hour

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
Wrong again. Just because someone is a useful cog in a machine doesn't mean they are skilled in the traditional sense of the word. That's why I also included semi skilled.

I'm all for people being paid what they're worth. I'm staunchly opposed to unions extorting companies into overpaying workers that could be replaced but for a piece of paper.

Especially so when this extortion also has a significant impact on the GNP and seriously effects several other parties.

I'm probably not going out on a limb here, but you probably don't understand what long shore-man do on a day to day basis...

One man's extortion is another man's leverage. As I said, god knows if the companies had the leverage, they would joyfully use it against the workers.

Using leverage is one thing. Extorting an industry to the point of dropping our GNP and ruining 3rd parties is quite the other. Especially considering their 150k contract wasn't even that long ago.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by warrior-cat:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

NO, they should get as much as they can...god know that a company does the exact same thing when they have any sort of leverage.

Y'all make it seem like companies are the most honest entity on the planet. Unions aren't by any means angels either, but it's a two way street. If the Unions have leverage in this situation, then good for them to use it.

Agreed, only if it does not in the end ruin the business or lose jobs. Many jobs could be lost depending on the total amount agreed upon or, the cost is passed on to the consumer. We have seen this over the years. Also, the part about being paid for what you are worth. I have been to 3 different ports to ship military shipments over the years and only one would I recommend for a pay increase if I had a say. Charleston was like watching an ant colony work. Corpus Christie and Beaumont TX, not so much. Very lazy workers there.

But why does this thought have to only apply to these guys? Business decisions are made a million times a day where jobs are on the line. We have tons of US companies that outsource work...and it's generally been accepted.

Like I said...will never, ever begrudge people getting the max for what they think they are worth.

Who are these people who generally accept outsourcing of jobs? Id be willing to wager the vast majority of americans are opposed to it.

The ultimate irony is the union driven increase in labor costs are the main reasons manufacturing jobs are outsourced. Unions nearly ruined the US auto industry.

 

[warrior-cat]

"Like I said...will never, ever begrudge people getting the max for what they think they are worth".

You know what the biggest point is in this statement. "What they think they are worth". Those who sit around all day oFf the government teet think they are worth a lot more than what they are stealing now. Unfortunately, the point many are trying to make, you made for us. "Trying to get as much as they can". Reality would suggest that you should get what you work for not for how much you can get out of the employer. If the job performance standard/technical skills required dictates this is how much this job is worth then, that should be the what is expected and payed. When you push for more just because you can (union strongarming) then, companies should be able to except or not.
This post was edited on 2/17 4:16 PM by warrior-cat

 

[qwesley]

Just a side note...public unions are protesting at Scott Walker's parents home today.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by qwesley:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

NO, they should get as much as they can...god know that a company does the exact same thing when they have any sort of leverage.

Y'all make it seem like companies are the most honest entity on the planet. Unions aren't by any means angels either, but it's a two way street. If the Unions have leverage in this situation, then good for them to use it.

The bolded is stupid and something no one is saying. Using leverage is fine for any party but when there is a substantial cascading effect outside those negotiations it often crosses the line. Airline industry has abused this strategy the most.

Once again, what is this substantial cascading effect you and the rest of your buddies keep mentioning? I asked earlier, and not one coherent response. Not a single one.

From quickly spending 15 minutes reading about this over lunch today, it looks like the employer locked out the workers from weekend work. So if the employer feels they can lock out the workers, then is there really an issue?

Simply looks like contract negotiation between two entities where one entity thinks they can get the upper hand by telling everyone how much the longshoreman make, thus causing an immense amount of butt-hurt jealously.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by Dennis Reynolds:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

I keep going back to the same point - I'll never begrudge anyone for making as much as they can. Good for them! In further discussing this situation, the cost of living in a major metropolitan area is very skewed, so laborers making $150K is really no big deal. I live in NYC and I have analysts making $90K+.

Yes, because the MARKET has set that rate at $90k. There is no Analyst Union. You pay that rate because that's what everyone else in your business pays. You could probably pay less, actually. None of your analysts are threatening a strike or a work slow down where you only get 1 excel file done a week. At worst, they quit, and you hire someone else.

If these tools actually had any special skills, they might be worth the $188k they are turning down, but they don't. They are largely replaceable, if not for their union deal. They happen to work at a critical juncture in the US economy, they themselves aren't critical. Absurd that they, and you, confuse the two.

It's Dr. Ebola with another opinion that misses the point. I have $90K analysts in NYC cause it's freaking NYC (something I am sure you are aware of).

Living in LA are isn't cheap, so it is expected there is a premium to be paid...no one is living high on the hog because they are making $150K.

I think you and others are being your typical highly dismissive selves by stating they have zero skill sets. Yeah, knowing how to operate those cranes is child's play.

I hope they get $200K a year...good for them.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by qwesley:
Just a side note...public unions are protesting at Scott Walker's parents home today.

So now you're against freedom of speech? Are these protesters breaking any laws?

 

[tammefan]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
Just a side note...public unions are protesting at Scott Walker's parents home today.

So now you're against freedom of speech? Are these protesters breaking any laws?

Really hope he runs for potus. Union thugs wont scare him or his family away.

 

[qwesley]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
Just a side note...public unions are protesting at Scott Walker's parents home today.

So now you're against freedom of speech? Are these protesters breaking any laws?

No, people have the right to be smug, annoying, childish assholes. But also the kind of behavior that makes them so unlikeable. Really dumb for public unions since they are almost all facing shortfalls that will require additional taxation and cuts to other services eventually.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by qwesley:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
Just a side note...public unions are protesting at Scott Walker's parents home today.

So now you're against freedom of speech? Are these protesters breaking any laws?

No, people have the right to be smug, annoying, childish assholes. But also the kind of behavior that makes them so unlikeable. Really dumb for public unions since they are almost all facing shortfalls that will require additional taxation and cuts to other services eventually.

If this is what you truly believe, then you should be supporting their actions to quicken their demise? Right?

 

[qwesley]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

So now you're against freedom of speech? Are these protesters breaking any laws?

No, people have the right to be smug, annoying, childish assholes. But also the kind of behavior that makes them so unlikeable. Really dumb for public unions since they are almost all facing shortfalls that will require additional taxation and cuts to other services eventually.

If this is what you truly believe, then you should be supporting their actions to quicken their demise? Right?

Your reasoning, ahem, skills are mesmerizing....just filled with rathole escapes to avoid normal logic.

To answer your question, we really don't have a culture of accountability. As one of Obama's primary fluffers you should understand very well about the power of marketing. When pensions hit the shitter, there will be a gruberish plan to sell. We know you will do your part to help.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by qwesley:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

So now you're against freedom of speech? Are these protesters breaking any laws?

No, people have the right to be smug, annoying, childish assholes. But also the kind of behavior that makes them so unlikeable. Really dumb for public unions since they are almost all facing shortfalls that will require additional taxation and cuts to other services eventually.

If this is what you truly believe, then you should be supporting their actions to quicken their demise? Right?

Your reasoning, ahem, skills are mesmerizing....just filled with rathole escapes to avoid normal logic.

To answer your question, we really don't have a culture of accountability. As one of Obama's primary fluffers you should understand very well about the power of marketing. When pensions hit the shitter, there will be a gruberish plan to sell. We know you will do your part to help.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with politics as much as you would like to drag politics into this. When in doubt, do back to your parties talking points. Y'all be calling the shitter as you proclaims for what seems like ages...hasn't happened yet.

I am the further-est from being a union guy, but what they make is none of my business (and yours) and from everything out there, the world is not coming to an end because those union guys want a larger share of the pie.

It's not like the union tried pulling this stunt before the holidays? They are doing their part after the holiday season and that in a nutshell is why no one is freaking out what so ever. The two groups will figure this all out at the end of the day and they will still be paid what to you would seem like an obscene amount.

I keep coming back to the same point over and over again....it's none of your business.

But hey, tell us what you make and we can pass judgement if you prefer...goes for the rest of you as well who have issues with what they are being paid.

 

[qwesley]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCatt

Originally posted by qwesley
Your reasoning, ahem, skills are mesmerizing....just filled with rathole escapes to avoid normal logic.
To answer your question, we really don't have a culture of accountability. As one of Obama's primary fluffers you should understand very well about the power of marketing. When pensions hit the shitter, there will be a gruberish plan to sell. We know you will do your part to help.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with politics as much as you would like to drag politics into this. When in doubt, do back to your parties talking points.

I am the further-est from being a union guy, but what they make is none of my business (and yours) and from everything out there, the world is not coming to an end because those union guys want a larger share of the pie.

I keep coming back to the same point over and over again....it's none of your business.

A standoff that impacts this much of the economy is everyone's business. And foolish to think politics aren't involved, including your opinion. As mentioned earlier, BO won't get involved for one big reason.($)

I certainly don't get as worked up on private sector union stuff for sure, only 8% are unionized versus 43% or so of public sector. Biggest bubble in our economy, criminal what has gone on there. KY is actually passing bonds to pay debt.

 

[Bill Derington]

Obama isn't going to get involved because they arent STRIKING!! The PMA locked them out, and cut out night shift to intentionally slow the process, so people like you would think the union is at fault.

You're blaming the unions for stuff haven't even done, its absurd. And the biggest bubble in our economy is caused by unions, for christs sake.
This post was edited on 2/17 6:29 PM by Bill Derington

 

[CatDaddy4daWin]

hopefully this results in companies deciding to use American manufacturers instead of shipping stuff from China. One can hope.

I'm shocked *not* that Obama hasn't tried to put an end to this. Reagan would have fired all of em by now Needs to end before it craters the economy; we're already gonna take a hit from the drop in oil.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by qwesley:

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCatt

Originally posted by qwesley
Your reasoning, ahem, skills are mesmerizing....just filled with rathole escapes to avoid normal logic.
To answer your question, we really don't have a culture of accountability. As one of Obama's primary fluffers you should understand very well about the power of marketing. When pensions hit the shitter, there will be a gruberish plan to sell. We know you will do your part to help.

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with politics as much as you would like to drag politics into this. When in doubt, do back to your parties talking points.

I am the further-est from being a union guy, but what they make is none of my business (and yours) and from everything out there, the world is not coming to an end because those union guys want a larger share of the pie.

I keep coming back to the same point over and over again....it's none of your business.

A standoff that impacts this much of the economy is everyone's business. And foolish to think politics aren't involved, including your opinion. As mentioned earlier, BO won't get involved for one big reason.($)

I certainly don't get as worked up on private sector union stuff for sure, only 8% are unionized versus 43% or so of public sector. Biggest bubble in our economy, criminal what has gone on there. KY is actually passing bonds to pay debt.

This situation is clearly private sector business...plain and simple. But you can't get past the word UNION because you are a partisan hack and everything has to be filtered through your crappy political lens.

Like I said...tell us how much you. Since knowing how much people make is such a big deal to you, feel free to share and allow us to comment on your worthiness.

I'll be patiently waiting President Romney...

 

[qwesley]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

Obama isn't going to get involved because they arent STRIKING!! And the biggest bubble in our economy is caused by unions, for christs sake.
This post was edited on 2/17 6:29 PM by Bill Derington

That is Albany level reading....my bubble comment was about unfounded public pension debt

and lockouts vs striking is usually legal semantics when contracts are expired

 

[UKRob 73]

You guys can continue to say it isn't a strike, but 1. That's BS and 2. Shows your lack of understanding of unions.
Slowing down work, is a LONG used tactic of unions. Its basically a strike, where their workers get paid.
Slowing down work creates the exact same thing a strike does. The employer is losing money, so it creates a black mail opportunity for workers, since employers have virtually no options.
Its a tactic just like violence, property damage, intimidation, threats etc that unions, mobs and gangs use when they don't get their way.
You guys need to stop repeating all the BS they feed you down at the union hall, and wake up.

 

[Beavis606]

I've never seen more brainwashing in all my life. Has anybody ever successfully deprogrammed a former union member?

 

[Robcatt24]

Originally posted by Beavis606:
I've never seen more brainwashing in all my life. Has anybody ever successfully deprogrammed a former union member?

They're like the Borg.

Isn't that what those half robot things from Star Trek were called?

 

[Bill Derington]

They actually aren't striking, PMA removed the night shift to slow down work. The PMA then locked them out of work this past weekend. There is no brainwashing going on, those are all absolute facts.

Just stop with the brainwashing bit,its ridiculous and childish. The PMA is slowing down work to turn public opinion as to weaken the negotiation leverage the union has. Come on guys, surely in all your obvious economic prowess you've been involved in negotiations, right?

 

[Bill Derington]

No one is mentioning jack at a union hall, thats the problem some of you have. A perception of something you really have no idea about. The problem is that it isn't reality.

 

[UKRob 73]

Read the article Bill, workers slowed work well before any lockout. Its a long used tactic by unions to force employers hand.

 

[Bill Derington]

I did read it, and that was the PMA saying that, maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But the PMA most definitely slowed work by removing a night shift, and locking them out. If they were worried about shipments actually getting through, why would the PMA remove a shift? Does that make any business sense? No, it doesnt, they want a back up to turn public perception against the union.

Same reason they said they make an average of 147000 a year. I posted the actual wages per hour, the max was $41 an hour, good pay, but about 82000 a year, overtime isn't included as a yearly income, because it varies year to year and employee to employee.

I'm not absolving the union from all fault, or blaming it all on the company, it's never that simple. I just get tired of people acting as if all or most union employees are lazy or thugs. I work hard, the guys I work with work hard, I've worked so many 12 hour midnight shifts in a row I'm forgetting what day it is, but I'm also getting paid well for it, and I'm thatnkful I have a good job in these days.

 

[UKRob 73]

When unions use their "slow work" tactic, yes it absolutely makes business sense to stop certain shifts. You are paying workers more than you are making, so absolutely cutting shifts makes sense.
And your income figures aren't remotely relevant, being that they don't include a HUGE portion of any hourly workers salary, overtime.

 

[Bill Derington]

They are relevant, why is there overtime? Because business is good, the overtime is not part of their negotiated wages, or a guarantee, it could be over the top one year, and none the next. It's not guaranteed pay. Do you understand how overtime works? If business is not good, the amount those guys had to work to even approach an average pay of 147000 would not be there, c'mon Rob you know that.

The hourly pay is whats negotiated, not the overtime pay, they don't negotiate 1000 hours of worked overtime in contract talks. They're letting them work that much ot because it's cheaper than hiring more employees, and the work is there, thats it.

You don't know they were actually slowing work, you think they were, and maybe they were I don't know either. But the PMA definitely slowed shipments by removing the shift and locking them out. They did that for one reason only, to get the union to concede either by lost hours or public opinion.

 

[Beavis606]

The PMA guy gave the average wage of $144K for those who worked 2,000 or more hours (40 hours a week for you mathematics-challenged union members). It included overtime. The union thug who made the video in response did not dispute that. Instead, he gave average pay for all employees.

 

[Bill Derington]

Beavis, I posted the contract with hourly pay, you know, what they actually make an hour for 40 hours, or 2080 hours of work a year. Can you understand that? Do you know what that means? The 144000 is not what they make for 2000 hours of work, 70000 is the average for that, the rest is overtime, in other words its not guaranteed pay, it takes working more than 3000 hours a year to make that, if not more. Just stop being a smartass, theres no need for it.

 

[Bill Derington]

Here it is again Beavis.

The average pay per hour is 38 dollars for straight time, thats about 79000 a year on 2080 hr . They are working more than that, and apparently ALOT more than that to reach the 147 or 144000 or whatever the hell it is. The overtime available to make that much is because apparently business is very good, or it would be cut out, its not hard to understand.
This post was edited on 2/18 8:00 PM by Bill Derington

hourly pay

 

[Beavis606]

WhyTF do you want to eliminate overtime pay? That is included in what they make. Salaried workers like the company men who you seem to hate so much, often work more than 40 hours per week. I don't see you trying to divide their paychecks into what they made the first 40 hours per week vs the rest of their hours.

IU fan: No wonder you cheater$ win so much. Coach Cal latest contract pays him an average of $7.5 million per year in base salary.
Bill Derington: Coach Cal only makes $1,000 per hour for his first 40 hours per week. The rest is overtime.



I'll type this slower so it might sink in for you. Here is what the PMA president said: "Full-time workers earn an average of $147,000 in wages, along with fully-paid healthcare that costs employers $35,000 per worker, per year."


Here is the video for you.


In response, the ILWU Local 23 president responded: "The figure they used is $147,000. It is based only on workers who worked 2,000 or more hours per year, and it incorporates all overtime hours."


Here is that video for you


So, in conclusion, they both agreed that workers with 2,000+ hours averaged $147,000 in regular pay plus overtime pay.

 

[Robcatt24]

Man, I'm a poor sonofabitch.

 

[Bill Derington]

Beavis, where did I say I hated the company men? The only one spewing anything about hating people is you.

I don't want to eliminate overtime, didn't say I did. What I did say is that overtime is not a negotiated pay. The negotiated rate is for 2080 hours or 40 hours of straight time. Which their average pay is $38 an hour or 79000 a year. Thats all the PMA guarantees them ubder the contract, do you understand that? The overtime may be more, less or nonexistent.

As for the salaried workers, they chose their path. I honestly don't care how much more or less they make, thats not my business.