The West Coast shipping strike.

[bigblueinsanity]

As usual, union members are the only ones defending unions. Why? Because they're the the only ones who could argue against reason.

How else could someone argue that refusing $188k is somehow a reasonable position.

The whole lot should be fired. Non union members hired and trained. Solves the whole issue. Hurts in short term. But much better in the long term.

 

[WayneDougan]

I don't have an issue with unions negotiating over the price of labor. I do have an issue with unions trying to decide how the business is managed. The union shouldn't have a say in how much automation is used.

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by Dennis Reynolds:
In all seriousness, is Obama doing anything about this? This is a group of thugs holding the U.S. Economy hostage for their own greedy selves. This is treason. When the banks got greedy, the fed gov stepped in and took action. Is Obama going to sit idle and let these touchsticks hold us hostage to their ridiculous demands?

this is a valid point. i work as an hourly employee, and unions are a relic of the past and no longer relevant to many industries. free market tends to steer things to equilibrium.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
As usual, union members are the only ones defending unions. Why? Because they're the the only ones who could argue against reason.

How else could someone argue that refusing $188k is somehow a reasonable position.

The whole lot should be fired. Non union members hired and trained. Solves the whole issue. Hurts in short term. But much better in the long term.

Why is it any of your business what other people make? If they can get $188K or $200K, then good for them. You and the others on here are nothing more than jealous...

 

[Bill Derington]

Why do you care what a dockworker in California makes? I don't get it, doesnt everyone on here want to make as much money as possible without hurting their employer? You think their wages are going to affect what we pay in any form?

I swear I don't get it, it just blows my mind.

 

[Phil McKracken]

Considering this affects all supply&demand for products all americans rely on, then I would say this is every american's business. Also, these dudes are making about 100k more than the average american household while at the same time driving the price of commodities up.

We all can and should have an opinion about this situation.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Furthest thing from jealous. But what I am concerned about is how their greed is destroying several other people/businesses; along with hurting our national GNP.

But hey - I'm sure they really deserve that extra $30k amirite?

I understand it's capitalism at work, to a degree. But it's also capitalism to fire the whole lot; and hire new non-union workers.

But these folks also are so skilled, I'm guessing they'll be swamped with job offers for $150k. Right?

 

[Bill Derington]

Their wages are not affecting the price we pay on items enough to even be considered in this, and they aren't the ones causing the stoppage, the companies that locked them out are.

And if they are that important to the supply chain, then get the contract hammered out, and pay them. Who cares if they make more than the average, whats that got to do with this. The average worker isn't ensuring trillions of dollars worth of imports and exports are moved smoothly.

 

[Bill Derington]

Big blue, only the union side is greedy? The company side obviously has the will of the people at heart, give me a break.

 

[d2atTech]

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
Furthest thing from jealous. But what I am concerned about is how their greed is destroying several other people/businesses; along with hurting our national GNP.

But hey - I'm sure they really deserve that extra $30k amirite?

I understand it's capitalism at work, to a degree. But it's also capitalism to fire the whole lot; and hire new non-union workers.

But these folks also are so skilled, I'm guessing they'll be swamped with job offers for $150k. Right?

unions are as anti-capitalist as they get...

 

[BankerCat12]

Wonder what the human traffickers think w/ their "cargo" stranded off the coast?

 

[Kaizer Sosay]

I don't care what anyone makes. And i don't care if it's automation disputes or disputes over the size of the urinal cakes in the bathroom that are holding this deal up.

What i do care about is how the stoppage of work affects our economy. You union sympathizers keep blaming the companies but it seems like they had a reasonable contract offer to the unions...with reasonable wage hikes (3%/year for 5 years IIRC)...which the unions have declined. Unless I'm missing something here, the companies locked them out because they declined the offer...which seems more than reasonable. That, and not the specifics like how much they are paid, is what bothers me. And I don't even care who is at fault here. I just want a deal done. Because it most certainly will affect all of us.

 

[Bill Derington]

Thats fair enough Kaiser, and I agree with that taken at face value.

I don't believe that 188000 number is correct, as far as pay. Thats $92 an hour, and I don't believe they turned that down. And I don't believe overtime is ever negotiated in as guaranteed pay. If they turned down $92 an hour I would agree with everything all of you have said.

My point is that in disputed high level negotiations both sides throw mud trying to get something to stick. No one on here knows whats actually going on, and both sides are to blame.

 

[domino79]

West coast dockworkers union is notoriously hard to negotiate with. Puppies scent.

 

[Bill Derington]

The wages are posted in that link, I'd like to see how 147000 average wage comes from that. If that is the actual wage then those guys are working their asses off in overtime. 60 hours work every week for a year. Thats a lot of money, but no life.

ilwu hourly wages

 

[domino79]

Bill, Bill, Bill. These people have proven they only want what's best for them. If they got raises I bet they wouldn't even donate some of to management! And those are the people that got them there.

Just selfishness all around on the part of those dock workers IMHO.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

The wages are posted in that link, I'd like to see how 147000 average wage comes from that. If that is the actual wage then those guys are working their asses off in overtime. 60 hours work every week for a year. Thats a lot of money, but no life.

Guessing you'd be shocked at how many people work 60+ hours a week nowadays; many without OT pay.

The 40 hour work week is a thing of the past.

 

[Bill Derington]

I'm sure there is, but why dog those workers that choose to work under better conditions?

 

[HoopsDavid]

Worked at corporate office a large union company. No reasonable person could side with the unions if they took a look at the labor statistics of our company. A union worker was 9 times...yes 9 times!!!!...as likely to call is absent for work versus a salaried worker. The average union worker missed over 1 day per 5 day week...yes, that is over 1 day per week on average!!! Coincidentally a union workers replacement for taking an absent workers shift made 1.5x wage. Cost the company millions. These guys would actually plan absent days and let there buddy get 1.5x. Then flip flop absentee and replacement role the next week. Everyone knew how the sceme worked but could do nothing about it. What's ridiculous is to inform of an absent day all you had to do was call and leave a message on a hot line and even provide your replacement. So guys could basically manipulate their own work schedules to ensure higher pay for same amount of hours. No diffrent than stealing.
What an embarrassment to American workforce. A lot of these guys, not all, are cut from the same cloth. Do as little as possible, manipulate the company, and have no sense of responsibility. And very seldom do any of them get fired for poor work records or performance.
For the record, as I know it will surely be said, I think the CEO making 5 mil a year is ridiculous too.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[Bill Derington]

David, That is ridiculous, and it's a shame when people take advantage of a situation like that.

 

[HoopsDavid]

Every month I was shocked to look at these numbers. Funny though, the veterans of the company just understood this was just the way it was. The shock had long since worn off and it was just factored into the cost of business. Decades of this behavior just made it normal. I had heard Union stories over the years but had no idea until I was a part of it in the real world.
Even the pro-union guys could hardly defend these numbers anymore. They are just so bitter at management in most cases, their anger justified the behavior in their minds. They just used the excuse that all the office guys were making millions sitting at a desk, so they may as well "get theirs" too. Made no sense, but the disconnect between the parties runs deep. I am convinced this situation is pretty commonplace at a lot of companies.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
Furthest thing from jealous. But what I am concerned about is how their greed is destroying several other people/businesses; along with hurting our national GNP.

How so?

Please be specific? I mean, oranges were cited, but the cost of OJ is the same. Overtime for workers at Toyota is being cut, but demand will pick up again so any potential lost wages from OT will be made up.

I mean, the last time I checked, it's not like these individuals are living large on $150K in LA....

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Originally posted by Bill Derington:

I'm sure there is, but why dog those workers that choose to work under better conditions?

I'm not. I'm dogging them for extorting their employer and in turn damaging the country and other merchants.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
Furthest thing from jealous. But what I am concerned about is how their greed is destroying several other people/businesses; along with hurting our national GNP.

How so?

Please be specific? I mean, oranges were cited, but the cost of OJ is the same. Overtime for workers at Toyota is being cut, but demand will pick up again so any potential lost wages from OT will be made up.

I mean, the last time I checked, it's not like these individuals are living large on $150K in LA....

I'll use your examples. The cost of oranges are the same? Yes, in terms of consumer cost; for now. But hard working farmers are being damaged. They're losing alot of money.

OT won't even work like that. There are finite amount of hours in a week, week in a year, and years in a career. It's not like a company just bonuses this missed money. It's gone.

But at least several unskilled/semi-skilled workers get a big pay raise, when they're already being paid more than they're worth.

 

[Bill Derington]

Big blue, they aren't extorting the company, and the company is the one causing the back up by eliminating night shifts, and locking out on long weekends. Yet in some insane logic you turn that into the unions fault. Thats insanity dude.

 

[Bill Derington]

You have no idea what a long shoreman is worth. Apparently quite a bit if they can single handedly get the country behind. Especially since its the COMPANY is stopping the shipments, read that in bold. The PMA is STOPPING the longshoreman from working.

Now you're a specialist on the GD struggling orange farmers suffering from this too? Basically it boils down to you not liking unions, which you have no clue as to how they operate, except the workers are overpaid, lazy, thugs, criminals who are ruining the country.

Whatever guys, enjoy the night, I've gotta work a 12 hour midnight shift that I volunteered for because the company is in a bad spot, and I'll get paid overtime for it as well at 1.5 my normal pay.

 

[UKRob 73]

Obama won't do anything, unions have turned into the mafia, and Obama is their leader.

 

[robo222]

Originally posted by HoopsDavid:
Worked at corporate office a large union company. No reasonable person could side with the unions if they took a look at the labor statistics of our company. A union worker was 9 times...yes 9 times!!!!...as likely to call is absent for work versus a salaried worker. The average union worker missed over 1 day per 5 day week...yes, that is over 1 day per week on average!!! Coincidentally a union workers replacement for taking an absent workers shift made 1.5x wage. Cost the company millions. These guys would actually plan absent days and let there buddy get 1.5x. Then flip flop absentee and replacement role the next week. Everyone knew how the sceme worked but could do nothing about it. What's ridiculous is to inform of an absent day all you had to do was call and leave a message on a hot line and even provide your replacement. So guys could basically manipulate their own work schedules to ensure higher pay for same amount of hours. No diffrent than stealing.
What an embarrassment to American workforce. A lot of these guys, not all, are cut from the same cloth. Do as little as possible, manipulate the company, and have no sense of responsibility. And very seldom do any of them get fired for poor work records or performance.
For the record, as I know it will surely be said, I think the CEO making 5 mil a year is ridiculous too.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

I agree with HoopsD... No work group in the USA screws over its fellow brother like a Union man will screw over another...
Hey.... it's in their contract!!!

 

[qwesley]

Originally posted by UKRob 73:
Obama won't do anything, unions have turned into the mafia, and Obama is their leader.

Interesting showdown coming when their healthcare plans start getting taxed.

 

[mailman85]

This post was edited on 2/17 10:01 AM by mailman85

 

[mailman85]

I find it funny the anti-union sentiment is strong in this thread and if you are a CEO or a Business owner I could maybe understand your thinking, however a few posters talked about how little the average wages are and how these (mean ole' Longshoreman are for wanting to get what they are worth, how dare they!!) and just how many people have to work 60hrs a week now just to make ends meet. Well my paddock friends if you worked at a Union shop your wages/benefits/compensation on average would be higher in most industries and you would be afforded on average more time off and on average have better working conditions. But yet the unions are bad for American workers, riiiiiggghht...

I'll let most of you get back to Rush now..



This post was edited on 2/17 10:29 AM by mailman85

This post was edited on 2/17 10:31 AM by mailman85

 

[CrazyHeel]

Some people like their "right to work" for less. What's happening here is the company keeps reporting record profits then cries broke to the union when it comes time to give raises, pay bonuses and productivity perks. They only want to pay the managers, presidents and ceo's. Shut'em down boys

 

[warrior-cat]

Originally posted by CrazyHeel:
Some people like their "right to work" for less. What's happening here is the company keeps reporting record profits then cries broke to the union when it comes time to give raises, pay bonuses and productivity perks. They only want to pay the managers, presidents and ceo's. Shut'em down boys

What is wrong here is that greedy people are complaining themselves right out of a job in the long run. Couple that with keeping businesses from hiring others because the pay to union workers want more and more. Also, I have seen many of these workers work Mailman and the ones I have seen are being overpaid for the work they are doing. So, don't give us any of this being paid for what they are worth crap.
This post was edited on 2/17 11:25 AM by warrior-cat

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:


But at least several unskilled/semi-skilled workers get a big pay raise, when they're already being paid more than they're worth.

And this is the big contradiction where your argument falls apart...

You're calling them "unskilled/semi-skilled workers", yet whine that their actions are going to cause irreparable harm to the US economy.

How do you balance your two statements and still come off as being anything but an extremely biased, obviously jealous individual?

I keep going back to the same point - I'll never begrudge anyone for making as much as they can. Good for them! In further discussing this situation, the cost of living in a major metropolitan area is very skewed, so laborers making $150K is really no big deal. I live in NYC and I have analysts making $90K+.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Wrong again. Just because someone is a useful cog in a machine doesn't mean they are skilled in the traditional sense of the word. That's why I also included semi skilled.

I'm all for people being paid what they're worth. I'm staunchly opposed to unions extorting companies into overpaying workers that could be replaced but for a piece of paper.

Especially so when this extortion also has a significant impact on the GNP and seriously effects several other parties.

 

[qwesley]

There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

 

[BernieSadori]

When I worked for a company represented by Teamsters Local 89, the contract absolutely stated any OT offered supervisors had to work down the seniority list even if they didn't perform the job that required additional time. Hell, they didn't even have to be in the same building. If anyone was skipped and a "lower" person worked he/she would receive equivalent pay for doing nothing.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by qwesley:
There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

NO, they should get as much as they can...god know that a company does the exact same thing when they have any sort of leverage.

Y'all make it seem like companies are the most honest entity on the planet. Unions aren't by any means angels either, but it's a two way street. If the Unions have leverage in this situation, then good for them to use it.

 

[AlbanyWildCat]

Originally posted by bigblueinsanity:
Wrong again. Just because someone is a useful cog in a machine doesn't mean they are skilled in the traditional sense of the word. That's why I also included semi skilled.

I'm all for people being paid what they're worth. I'm staunchly opposed to unions extorting companies into overpaying workers that could be replaced but for a piece of paper.

Especially so when this extortion also has a significant impact on the GNP and seriously effects several other parties.

I'm probably not going out on a limb here, but you probably don't understand what long shore-man do on a day to day basis...

One man's extortion is another man's leverage. As I said, god knows if the companies had the leverage, they would joyfully use it against the workers.

 

[warrior-cat]

Originally posted by AlbanyWildCat:

Originally posted by qwesley:
There is a point where reasonable negotiations sometimes become blackmail. Are they going for their true worth or the most they can get knowing the crippling nature of a stoppage?

NO, they should get as much as they can...god know that a company does the exact same thing when they have any sort of leverage.

Y'all make it seem like companies are the most honest entity on the planet. Unions aren't by any means angels either, but it's a two way street. If the Unions have leverage in this situation, then good for them to use it.

Agreed, only if it does not in the end ruin the business or lose jobs. Many jobs could be lost depending on the total amount agreed upon or, the cost is passed on to the consumer. We have seen this over the years. Also, the part about being paid for what you are worth. I have been to 3 different ports to ship military shipments over the years and only one would I recommend for a pay increase if I had a say. Charleston was like watching an ant colony work. Corpus Christie and Beaumont TX, not so much. Very lazy workers there.