The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[Marleydogg]

This article suggests the war's endgame is to a) let U's current offensive play out, and then b) reach territorial agreement of Russia getting "some" U land while U gets the security of fast track NATO membership.

"With support for the war against Russia waning in the U.S., the counteroffensive may define a new border."

"2023 will be the decisive year for the war—and that by the end of the year, support for a cease-fire as a prelude to negotiations will become too strong to resist, even if some Eastern European allies doubt the wisdom of this course. .... hard to believe that the coalition is prepared to maintain its current level of effort for a trench-warfare conflict lasting as long as World War I."

"The good news is that NATO is moving closer to agreement on such a security package as it prepares for its annual meeting next month. Although recent signals have been mixed, Mr. Biden may be open to the suggestion, promoted by NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, that Ukraine could join NATO after the war without going through the lengthy and elaborate preparatory steps typically required of applicants. France, Germany and many Eastern European countries are also indicating they are open to this plan. Within this framework, it should be possible to work out the security guarantees that Ukraine would need before it joins NATO.

But why would Ukraine agree to arrangements that would probably mean the permanent loss of a substantial portion of its internationally recognized territory? The answer is U.S. domestic politics. At the beginning, support for Ukraine in the U.S. was strongly bipartisan. No longer. While Democrats continue to back current levels of assistance, the share of Republicans who believe that we are doing too much has risen steadily, from 9% in March 2022 to 44% today, according to Pew. Recently, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy rebuffed a plan backed by both Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Minority Leader Mitch McConnell that would provide supplemental aid for Ukraine " Net, McCarthy is a warhawk rino, LOL.

"Now it’s clear that Europe must end at Ukraine’s border with Russia. For the peace of the world, the West must establish this border and defend it against future aggression from a nation that will never be European."

Opinion | Ukraine Could Be Forced to Compromise

With support for the war against Russia waning in the U.S., the counteroffensive may define a new border.

www.wsj.com

You meant, net, (and what is your weird obsession of summing things up like that, like you have spoken and that's the last word on the subject?) Mconnell is a warmonger Rino.

You yourself just said Mccarthy rebuffed more money.

Huh? Are you daft?

 

[Marleydogg]

Are you defending Biden? I'm a DeSantis fan.

I think he's pointing out the obvious, that if you believe our administration to be corrupt and treasonous as to our border, then logically why do you trust every God cursed word that comes out of their mouths re:Ukraine.

I mean, a first grader should understand what Cosby posited there.

 

[Marleydogg]

As if you know that's where the $1B came from. LOL. If you were even half a genius.

So where did it come from, net?

 

[Wildcats1st]

I think he's pointing out the obvious, that if you believe our administration to be corrupt and treasonous as to our border, then logically why do you trust every God cursed word that comes out of their mouths re:Ukraine.

I mean, a first grader should understand what Cosby posited there.

This guy and others pick their facts. They say the admin and biden are corrupt and treasonous but when it comes to the Russia deal they believe everything. I’ve questioned it too. It’s kind of like battered wife syndrome. “He will change”. For JamesLee that means literally I meant they or whatever (into a woman). 😂 😆

Sorry dude I had to take a page from your book with the laughing emojis

 

[OnUK]

Wagner has pushed into Russia on a probably doomed road to Moscow - literally.

We could be witnessing history at this moment, but leave it to Russia to have a coup led by someone perhaps even worse than Putin.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Wagner has pushed into Russia on a probably doomed road to Moscow - literally.

We could be witnessing history at this moment, but leave it to Russia to have a coup led by someone perhaps even worse than Putin.

This is what you will get with a coup. Worse than Putin. It’s 100% guaranteed. Prigozhin is a certifiable nut job. I’m not dismissing that all of this is staged to move Prigozhin into shoigus role.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Kennedy knows what up. This guy (RFK Jr) is gonna gain traction on biden. He’s living up to the Kennedy name as a maverick to challenge the media/cia narrative. His pops and uncle were knocked off for it. Let’s see what happens here

 

[bcw1029]

This coup may have legs and could be for real. Southern Military District HQ in Rostov now under Wagner control. Watching history unfold before our eyes.

 

[WayneDougan]

This coup may have legs and could be for real. Southern Military District HQ in Rostov now under Wagner control. Watching history unfold before our eyes.

Nothing like a coup on a nuclear armed failed state!

This is exactly why I hated this crap. I don't like Putin. I don't like Russia. But at the end of the day those guys were not really impacting America. But now, who the f knows. Who's to say that Putin won't say "eff it" and hit the button if he's cornered?

 

[vhcat70]

You meant, net, (and what is your weird obsession of summing things up like that, like you have spoken and that's the last word on the subject?) Mconnell is a warmonger Rino.

You yourself just said Mccarthy rebuffed more money.

Huh? Are you daft?

You can't follow the thread. People were/are claiming McCarthy is pro more aid to Ukraine & this shows he's not. Net, I was laughing at those who think he's pro more aid. I.e., some folks can't accept McCarthy even when he does what they want. Nothing weird about laughing at them.

 

[vhcat70]

I think he's pointing out the obvious, that if you believe our administration to be corrupt and treasonous as to our border, then logically why do you trust every God cursed word that comes out of their mouths re:Ukraine.

I mean, a first grader should understand what Cosby posited there.

I don't believe a thing that comes out of Trump's mouth either.

 

[vhcat70]

So where did it come from, net?

I'm just saying you don't know where it came from, not where it did.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Nothing like a coup on a nuclear armed failed state!

This is exactly why I hated this crap. I don't like Putin. I don't like Russia. But at the end of the day those guys were not really impacting America. But now, who the f knows. Who's to say that Putin won't say "eff it" and hit the button if he's cornered?

Destabilization of a poorly run nuclear power that sees us as the enemy.

 

[vhcat70]

This guy and others pick their facts. They say the admin and biden are corrupt and treasonous but when it comes to the Russia deal they believe everything.

False on it's face. That I support Ukraine doesn't translate to believing Biden. That he does some good things is a coincidence - as with Trump.

 

[Wildcats1st]

This coup may have legs and could be for real. Southern Military District HQ in Rostov now under Wagner control. Watching history unfold before our eyes.

lol. Don’t get so excited. Yes we are witnessing history but not with the outcomes you think. If you think Prigozhin becomes military chief without Putin’s blessing well that’s delusion.

And to be sure Russia is a massive country with massive differences in ethnicities. I don’t think people understand the dynamics of the play that would be made for parts of Russia if their became a void. Likely you would end up with sectarian groups like the Chechens with nuclear weapons. This is precisely why you don’t screw with full fledged nuclear powers. The unintended consequences could be massive.

 

[WayneDougan]

lol. Don’t get so excited. Yes we are witnessing history but not with the outcomes you think. If you think Prigozhin becomes military chief without Putin’s blessing well that’s delusion.

And to be sure Russia is a massive country with massive differences in ethnicities. I don’t think people understand the dynamics of the play that would be made for parts of Russia if their became a void. Likely you would end up with sectarian groups like the Chechens with nuclear weapons. This is precisely why you don’t screw with full fledged nuclear powers. The unintended consequences could be massive.

It's such a freaking shit show. Again, the left has lost their mind. This is clearly about Trump for them. It's bizarre. And now you're going to have a nuclear crisis on our hands.

 

[bcw1029]

It's such a freaking shit show. Again, the left has lost their mind. This is clearly about Trump for them. It's bizarre. And now you're going to have a nuclear crisis on our hands.

lol I’m not the left. Even if Putin were to “hit the button”, the order wouldn’t be obeyed.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Kennedy knows what up. This guy (RFK Jr) is gonna gain traction on biden. He’s living up to the Kennedy name as a maverick to challenge the media/cia narrative. His pops and uncle were knocked off for it. Let’s see what happens here

He does? The man thinks vaccines a dangerous despite volumes of proof to the contrary.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I think he's pointing out the obvious, that if you believe our administration to be corrupt and treasonous as to our border, then logically why do you trust every God cursed word that comes out of their mouths re:Ukraine.

I mean, a first grader should understand what Cosby posited there.

Not really but perhaps you can explain why the thoughts are mutually exclusive.

 

[bcw1029]

He does? The man thinks vaccines a dangerous despite volumes of proof to the contrary.

The quote that really stood out was when he said Russia acted “in good faith” when they invaded Ukraine and we didn’t act in good faith.

Stopped taking him seriously after that. Guy has lost his marbles.

 

[Wildcats1st]

He does? The man thinks vaccines a dangerous despite volumes of proof to the contrary.

Dude the anti vax movement was led by liberals. I’m not talking about COVID. I’m talking about wholesale vaccination of kids for every malady you can imagine. He will pull loads of people on the left for his stance. He will peel off support from teacher unions because this is a prevailing thought in education that vaccines cause problems like autism, adhd, behavior issues, etc. Yeah for the last two years it’s been a conservative issue but on balance it isn’t. We need people to question wtf our kids are putting in their bodies so there is accountability.

 

[bcw1029]

Prigozhin is just the face of oligarchs opposing the war in Ukraine.

He wouldn't be going forward unless he had the backing of some equally powerfully oligarchs.

 

[chroix]

Nothing like a coup on a nuclear armed failed state!

This is exactly why I hated this crap. I don't like Putin. I don't like Russia. But at the end of the day those guys were not really impacting America. But now, who the f knows. Who's to say that Putin won't say "eff it" and hit the button if he's cornered?

How is this sentiment any different than the appeasement that led to WWII? Do you just let whoever is in charge of Russia or any other nuclear power do whatever they want because they have nukes?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

How is this sentiment any different than the appeasement that led to WWII? Do you just let whoever is in charge of Russia or any other nuclear power do whatever they want because they have nukes?

If we responded every time one sovereign invaded another, this would make sense. But, we don’t. We let a lot of horrific things happen without a response and we stay out of many wars.

So, it is clear our interests guide our decisions. The discussion about those interests is legit.

 

[chroix]

If we responded every time one sovereign invaded another, this would make sense. But, we don’t. We let a lot of horrific things happen without a response and we stay out of many wars.

So, it is clear our interests guide our decisions. The discussion about those interests is legit.

We always respond. It’s a matter of to what degree.

 

[vhcat70]

So are Ukraine forces taking advantage of the Russian disarray or do they think this will work to their favor w/o more fighting? Bet they know more than anyone here.

 

[vhcat70]

So Russia telling people to stay home from work. Sounds good.

 

[jameslee32]

The Ivan fans are going thru some things huh? 🤣

 

[UnfrozenCatfanLawyer]

The Ivan fans are going thru some things huh? 🤣

It got awfully quiet in here.

 

[vhcat70]

Prigozhin is just the face of oligarchs opposing the war in Ukraine.

He wouldn't be going forward unless he had the backing of some equally powerfully oligarchs.

Interesting thoughts. Thanks.

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Lol.

 

[jameslee32]

A Russian oligarch blaming other oligarchs for stealing is always an amusing position to take before starting then retreating on a march towards Moscow. The infighting just makes Ukraine's job all the more easier I suppose. As vh would say, the beginning of the end. 👍

 

[Wildcats1st]

How is this sentiment any different than the appeasement that led to WWII? Do you just let whoever is in charge of Russia or any other nuclear power do whatever they want because they have nukes?

If anything appeasement toward Putin had already occurred. In 2008 in Georgia we did nothing as he took a swath of Georgia and again in 2014 when he took Crimea. And recently Obama spoke about it and said he did nothing because “there were a lot of Russian speakers there”. That’s exactly how he said it. Sound familiar. Appeasement already happened that’s why there was a full invasion.

I’m not into the ww2 parallels at this point. Sure there are some lessons to be learned but I think a lot of people in the world are blinded by it. It’s the precedent for much of Russias original failed attempt at taking Ukraine. It’s Biden’s logic in his approach toward Russia. Hillary has even refered to Putin as hitler. This is too simplistic for this era of history.

What’s happening right now are the unintended consequences of direct involvement. A failed Russia state will mean loose nukes everywhere. Hell they are in Belarus now already. the cold war ended on peaceful terms. if this internal conflict continues to escalate inside russia. the country will break down and 5000 nuclear weapons and materials will be up for grabs while the power grab is fought out in a hot war and unlike 1990 no one is getting in there secure those weapons.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

We always respond. It’s a matter of to what degree.

Really? Are you including talking about as “responding.”

 

[Hank Camacho]

Prigozhin is just the face of oligarchs opposing the war in Ukraine.

And what a beautiful face it is.

 

[entropy13]

This is all a very odd and fluid situation. I don't believe for a second that Lukashenko exerted any influence. He's nothing but a puppet. This is very much an intra-siloviki affair and is far from over.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Prigozhin gave up; being exiled to Belarus. I expect Putin pins this whole thing on the west and ups the ante significantly. Wagner gonna be absorbed by Russian military.

 

[Wildcats1st]

This is all a very odd and fluid situation. I don't believe for a second that Lukashenko exerted any influence. He's nothing but a puppet. This is very much an intra-siloviki affair and is far from over.

Prigozhin could go no where else in the world. His “puppet” peer agreed to take him in giving him an off ramp. It’s all pretty straightforward. Prigozhin became arrogant, and he’s a psychopath who thought Russian oligarchs would fall in line behind him. The guy is a lunatic and either will be dead in the next week or two or if he’s not you should expect this whole thing was staged.

 

[entropy13]

Prigozhin gave up; being exiled to Belarus. I expect Putin pins this whole thing on the west and ups the ante significantly. Wagner gonna be absorbed by Russian military.

It's all very odd. No way can Putin credibly blame the West for this, though. What leverage do we have on Prigozhin to prompt him to do this? Putin would be laughed at if he tried to blame the West. Our intelligence had inklings Prigozhin might do something at some point but were surprised it transpired so quickly.

 

[Wildcats1st]

It's all very odd. No way can Putin credibly blame the West for this, though. What leverage do we have on Prigozhin to prompt him to do this? Putin would be laughed at if he tried to blame the West. Our intelligence had inklings Prigozhin might do something at some point but were surprised it transpired so quickly.

To a westerner sure. A billion and a half people. The rest of the world it plays directly into their narratives that the USA is always meddling and exploiting. For the mid east this looks an awful like a US backed Arab spring uprising. At this point the truth doesn’t matter. You’re not gonna find it in any media globally. We are in a moment of total propaganda. Everything you see and hear has been twisted. Russian media , our media of course, global media. And our intelligence community? Please, zero credibility. They saw what everyone saw. Prigozhin going public with criticism. You don’t have to be in the intel community to know wagner was planning something. Prigozhin and his band of prisoners.

There is far more to this than we hear in the media and none of it favors the west I promise you. Personally I think it’s all staged we ll see how Putin frames this in the days to come.