I'll go to Ukraine if you agree to sit in a Russian prison waving a white flag until I come back?
The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
Oh, your commitment has silly conditions. Not surprising. All of a sudden, the war is not as crucial as you once claimed.
And, again, that is the position of Putin and his lackies.
Supplying Ukraine with arms or supporting their being supplied with arms sufficient for their needs is no more an implication of a desire for perpetual war than is the State of Kentucky’s provision of Defense Counsel through the DPA an implication that criminal cases must go to trial without a chance of settlement.
Hack, I missed where I said we should not support Ukraine. You may want to remind me of that. I also missed where peace talks and supporting Ukraine are now opposing views.
I moderated for Mel in my youth, and spent a lot of time on it.
Though I need less sleep, now, I likely wouldn’t try it, again.
And I’m not certain anyone wants to “see” (or smell) the old PDH in or out of context.
Then we may well be in complete accord.
I also missed where those who propose supporting Ukraine completely reject Ukraine’s right to seek a negotiated settlement.
Those that insist Russia must be completely expelled from Ukrainian territory are not rejecting a negotiated settlement, as that very form of settlement has an historic name, Status Quo Ante Bellum (ie the parties return to their positions/borders as preexisted the war), and was the negotiated settlement of our own War of 1812.
Status quo ante bellum - Wikipedia
Ukraine has not threatened to cleave a portion of pre-war Russia unto it’s own. I suspect they would be satisfied with a SQAB result, but I also suspect Putin would be fatally weakened by such acceptance. But such is the risk of stoking the fires of an unprovoked war.
Russia has already foreseen this possible outcome, and has attempted to “muddy-the-waters” of what constitutes the “status quo” by illegally annexing portions they stole beginning in 2014, along with portions they never touched.
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Such an empty question but I’ll answer it anyway. Yawn.
No - if he’s dead.
Yes - if he’s captured alive by his own people and turned over to The Hague.
Then we may well be in complete accord.
I also missed where those who propose supporting Ukraine completely reject Ukraine’s right to seek a negotiated settlement.
Those that insist Russia must be completely expelled from Ukrainian territory are not rejecting a negotiated settlement, as that very form of settlement has an historic name, Status Quo Ante Bellum (ie the parties return to their positions/borders as preexisting the war), and was the negotiated settlement of our own War of 1812.
Status quo ante bellum - Wikipedia
en.m.wikipedia.org
Ukraine has not threatened to cleave a portion of pre-war Russia unto its own. I suspect they would be satisfied with a SQAB result, but I also suspect Putin would be fatally weakened by such acceptance. But such is the risk of stoking the fires of an unprovoked war.
If people here have been promoting a peaceful resolution, I missed it. Sorry. But, I don’t agree that we must wait for Ukraine to seek a negotiated settlement before our country proposes peace negotiations.
The rhetoric of crushing Russia as the objective is not one I support. It may be strategic, based upon intel, as the best way to deal with Putin, but I suspect it emboldens him not to concede. If we are giving billions in support, I think we have a right to demand Ukraine entertain a peaceful negotiation. Ukraine has the right to reject that overture. But, I am not sure I would support continuing to give Ukraine military and financial aid if it refused to come to the table. I would not demand they accept any negotiated resolution, but would demand they attempt one, assuming Russia also agreed to negotiate peace.
I see the hypocrisy of us decrying Russia’s invasion when we seemingly do that without consistency around the world. There are other wars, but we are not discussing those.
If Russia claimed and took part of Ukraine, I am not sure how that impacts the people of the US any more than Russia taking Crimea. I have advocated humanitarian responses to aggression in the past to stop genocide of a people at the hands of the ruthless. But, at some point, piling Russian and Ukrainian bodies in a war we help to perpetuate will place me firmly on the other side.
Hopefully, there are voices in Russia capable of saying the same.
Our wars since 2001 have not been attempts to gain national territory, and are a false equivalency to prove your implication of hypocrisy. . . . they were punitive (Afghanistan), preventative (Iraq) and were all largely misguided by the thought we could repeat the successes of our defeat and occupation of WWII Axis foes.
The Muslim world can be conventionally defeated, but cannot be civilized.
[I reread your post. You were explicit in your reference to our “hypocrisy.”].
As to Ukraine’s willingness to negotiate, Zelenski has broadcast his positions, recently, and has said the Chinese proposals had some portions of merit.
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I was not referencing our wars, but wars between two countries where one does not recognize the sovereignty of another. Our decision with Ukraine is greatly influenced by the fact that Russia is the oppressor. We do not respond in accord each time an oppressor so acts.
Zaporizhia Power Plant meltdown would be freaking catastrophic. These folks are real heroes in this mess.
Were we to do so, some might allege we were “the world’s policemen.”
And not all aggressor’s, worldwide are the same.
Some in this thread say Ukraine has no strategic value to the US, ignoring it’s proximity to European allies and massive production of energy and food used by allies, and others in the world.
Ukraine is not England, but it is not a minor Central African state being invaded by another minor Central African state.
It is a European nation fighting a state that bares open hostility to the West, which has ignored International Law on a massive scale for decades, and has thousands of nuclear weapons aimed at us and our European allies.
Additionally, when Ukraine gave up its Nuclear stockpile, we gave them written assurances of support should they be attacked.
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No doubt. And, some have argued that our historical greatness would justify, if not require, such. Others have asked for direct impact for justification. Hence my question.
No more speculation than what I responded to in your post.
It's speculation that no one is contemplating a resolution.
Then on what planet should you support anyone besides maybe the US?
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Russia being incapable for an acceptable period to not need to be concerned with trusting them.
Surrender what? Does it need to be stated that this makes no sense?
True. But, it clearly has not been part of the aggressive rhetoric being forced by the administration and Ukraine. I admitted that this might be a front premised upon intel about Putin, but I find that unlikely. China has called for a cease fire. I will wait and see how the US approaches the war in the near future. Zelensky and Biden know that something will need to change. US citizens don’t support protracted distant wars.
I prefer to let people reject proposals before concluding they won’t. It is clear the US cannot spearhead such a negotiation, especially now after we have levied scorched earth rhetoric. I hope the Biden administration is working with China behind the scenes to have China propose a summit. But, I question whether that is possible. Maybe a third-party could work with China.
But, an offer has to be made before there can be an acceptance. Have you heard of an offer being made to Russia?
As I see it, Putin doomed himself when he invaded Ukraine in 2014. He will die the death that ends most dictators.
He can’t win in Ukraine so his people will kill him. If he withdraws he’ll meet certain death from his cronies who’ll see him as weak.
There’s even a chance that Ukrainian or Belarusian operatives will get to him, probably with the help of one or more of his cronies.
In effect, he’s on the highway to hell with cruise control stuck on high speed. I’m sure his servants are looking over their shoulders when they’re around him.
This isn’t like Vietnam or Afghanistan. Well, it is kind of like when Russia was in Afghanistan for ten years, and we certainly supported Afghanis for that long.
I have heard nothing beyond China calling for a cease fire, which sadly sounded to me like leadership. At least say it.
We did not support the Afghans like we are Ukraine. But, how did that workout for us? When was the last time we supported the lesser of two evils and did not eventually pay the price?
If you think Americans are going to continue to pay billions for this proxy war over a period of years, I believe you are not paying attention.
No. A ceasefire is the same as a victory for Putin. He wants all of Ukraine (he considers it to be a part of Russia historically) but would settle for Crimea and a land bridge to it, which he holds at the moment.
The Afghanis waged a guerilla war against Russia. The Ukraine/Russia conflict is trench warfare.
It’s telling, and not at all subtle, that you think Ukraine is evil; the country that finally stood up to Putin’s evil.
I think you’re paying attention to only some select sources regarding the war. Predictable.
The best approach is the “big picture” one. Get info from a variety of sources if you want as objective a view of the subject as is possible in this age of information overload.
False.
This approach in these threads of pretending you know someone by creating strawman arguments is why I laugh at these never ending threads.
Hope you geniuses figure it out.
Then he has achieved victory, unless NATO troops enter the war. Ukraine alone is not dislodging him.
Sounds like his destruction is assured. Thankfully he’s a nice enough guy he won’t make it mutual.
YAWN. It’s 9 years later putin is still there. You know Russia isn’t the type of country you officially attempt to implement regime change in. Which is what’s happening now. Can you imagine if the USA had knocked off a soviet leader? How that would have ended? The stupidity is lumping Russia/Putin in there with ghadafi, Sadam, ceausescu, Mussolini, etc, etc. Russia contrary to what the clown show believes is unified. Any hint of a western backed coup or assasination of putin and it’s over. The force’s behind Putin don’t have the restraint he does. There isn’t some western democracy coalition waiting in the wings behind him. Besides Putin isn’t going anywhere. Woulda happened by now.
Cave wants a ceasefire to give Putin time to regroup and lick his wounds. Nothing more. He's the biggest Russian pawn on these boards along with that weird "Girthang" dude or whatever his name is.
They're two sides of the same ruble.
I have. Putin says surrender & leave your country to me.
US spend $2.3T in/on Afghanistan. That's a T.
Of course he would if he could but he doesn’t have a singular ability to launch nukes. I don’t think all Russian military officers are nutjobs like Putin. I’ve watched countless YouTube video interviews by Lviv Media with captured Russian soldiers.
To a man they came to Ukraine following orders but when given the ability to see both sides, they universally don’t want anything more to do with the war. They didn’t find any Nazis and saw the Ukrainian soldiers as mirrors of themselves.
I simply don’t think Putin’s order to launch nukes, of any kind, would be followed. In fact, I think those might be his last words.
