The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
Very similar concept to 1938 Munich Agreement. That worked out so well. Great idea.
He needs to get Vivek back on the trail as an advisor. Assuming that quote is not an out of context misrepresentation, that’s just dumb.
Based on Putin's behavior, they are to him. So yes, your post correctly reflects his viewpoint. Congrats on getting that right.
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If you have never negotiated a deal or mediated a settlement, that might make sense. But, if you have actually negotiated resolutions to conflicts, you know that people’s independent announcements about their positions are not their compromise posture, but their win posture. So, what Zelensky and Putin have to say outside of a negotiation is irrelevant.
An American journalist died in a Ukrainian prison last year under similar circumstances. Weird how these two countries may be filled with the same type of people.
Gonzalo Lira? He was an obese, smoker, who got arrested for being a pro-kremlin shill. He was out of bail, and got caught trying to flee to hungary. He caught pnuemonia and died.
I can't take people who openly call for war against others who hold different political views. Serious when they start talking about ''Ukraine is so much like russia''.
Unsurprisingly, you completely missed the point I was trying to make. But please, before I begin, please regale us with your tales of negotiating international agreements.
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Oh, you don't have any experience in such. Nevermind.
Here's the point I was making: Russia cannot reasonably be trusted to abide by international agreements it signs, especially those with weaker neighbors, but also even other ones.
"Russia agreed to respect Ukraine’s territorial integrity and sovereignty and to refrain from the threat or use of force against Ukraine in both the Budapest Memorandum of 1994 and the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty of 1997. In an agreement partitioning the Black Sea Fleet after the fall of the Soviet Union, Russia agreed to pay Ukraine to lease a naval base in Sevastopol.
Seventeen years later, it illegally annexed that base and the rest of Crimea. In the Budapest Memorandum, Russia provided security assurances to Ukraine in exchange for Ukraine giving up its nuclear arsenal. Now, a nuclear power has launched a full-scale invasion of the state whose security it was supposed to protect.
Russia’s other neighbors have had similar experiences. Russia armed and fought on the side of separatists in both Georgia and Moldova.
In 1992, Russia signed two agreements ensuring the territorial integrity of Georgia and promising to avoid military involvement in its separatist conflicts. Yet in 2008, Russia invaded, falsely claiming that Georgia was committing genocide against South Ossetians to justify the war. In a cease-fire agreement brokered by the French president, Russia agreed to withdraw its troops from Georgia — but it never did. Fifteen years later, Russian troops continue to occupy 20% of Georgian territory.
Similarly, some 1,500 Russian soldiers are stationed in the Moldovan region of Transnistria, more than 20 years after Russia made two agreements to withdraw them.
Russia has an abysmal track record of keeping agreements made with the countries it has invaded, including ones brokered by outside mediators and security organizations.
Perhaps Russia would be more likely to respect a treaty brokered by a powerful country such as the United States? Unfortunately, history provides no evidence for this assumption, either. Russia has broken every nuclear treaty it has signed with the U.S."
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-12-15/ukraine-russia-war-negotiation-treaties
How are these same points being argued? It feels like these same points get explained to the same group bi-weekly.
Ok, so Russia isn’t going to abide by any international agreements.
Then how does this war end?
Then how does this war end?
Explain to me the difference between international posturing pre-negotiations and domestic. Thanks.
I realize that the deaths and devastation of 100s of 1000s is not a concern for those not impacted, but this is a defeatist attitude toward the potential resolution of a war. Tell us when and how you expect this war to end. Thanks.
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Same question they can never answer. They don’t care. But, Ukraine saw the machinations needed for the most recent gifted billions, it will likely be more difficult to get that next time. The war donations will end.
If there will be no negotiated settlement, then Ukraine needs to win the war.
If that’s the case, it seems irresponsible to me to be only asking for another $60 billion in aid when the average age of the Ukrainian army is now over 40 years old given all the lives they lost. They need men and way more than $60 billion.
The US spent over $2 trillion in Afghanistan, and the enemy was nowhere near as well equipped and funded as Russia.
So again, unless we’re going to negotiate a settlement, seems like $60 billion at this point is just a waste. We should commit multiple trillions of dollars and put US boots on the ground or there is no way we’re going to defeat Russia and stop the expansion of their empire.
If that’s the case, it seems irresponsible to me to be only asking for another $60 billion in aid when the average age of the Ukrainian army is now over 40 years old given all the lives they lost. They need men and way more than $60 billion.
The US spent over $2 trillion in Afghanistan, and the enemy was nowhere near as well equipped and funded as Russia.
So again, unless we’re going to negotiate a settlement, seems like $60 billion at this point is just a waste. We should commit multiple trillions of dollars and put US boots on the ground or there is no way we’re going to defeat Russia and stop the expansion of their empire.
My bad. They’re completely different. And i have no earthly clue what the first sentence you typed is even talking about.
Naw man. We’re giving them old stuff we don’t need any more. It just happens to be worth billions of dollars. It’s like a huge garage sale. Same type deal the Afghanis gave us on the stuff we left there. They’re doing us a favor. We’re lucky to have such good friends.
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It wasn't directed towards you. I aplogize if it came off that way. I was talking about a lot of the russian defenders or ''peace lovers'' in this thread.
An American journalist died in a Ukrainian prison last year under similar circumstances. Weird how these two countries may be filled with the same type of people.
If the two nations’ people were of the same type there wouldn’t be an ongoing war. Russians consider Ukrainians to be their subordinates. Ukrainians generally despise Russians. Their history with Russia has been one of continual conflict and suffering.
The idea of total Ukrainian victory is delusional
Russia is winning the war and there is little to suggest that any foreseeable political, economic, tactical or technological developments are likely to alter that fundamental reality.
thehill.com
The EDA is exactly what that’s intended for - giving away surplus obsolete equipment that will save taxpayer $$$$ rather than routine decommissioning. Biden probably forgot about it, not surprisingly, or his aides don’t know how to use it.
Also a fact is that Biden could have sent DPCM 155mm rounds (surplus) and 1000 M39 ATACMs (surplus) to stop the fall of the Adviivka without congress using the EDA authority... again without congress.
He didn’t. Need leadership.
He didn’t. Need leadership.
Totally? I doubt ever as long as Russia has their Empire-driven leadership. An armed border stalemate is most likely for the foreseeable future. Sorta like the Koreas. There may be a ceasefire or treaty, but it wouldn't last.
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A negotiated settlement would not end the vision of the Russians. Just a temporary pause.
The idea of total Ukrainian victory is delusional
Russia is winning the war and there is little to suggest that any foreseeable political, economic, tactical or technological developments are likely to alter that fundamental reality.
Seems we hear a lot about Russian failures and Ukrainian victories. Russia is winning?
So today, CNN’s headline is that the Kremlin has never been richer, thanks to India purchasing Russian oil.
Let that sink in. CNN is an arm of the DNC and the uniparty. If they are giving bad news, it’s really bad and probably even worse than they’re admitting.
Meanwhile, Russia is in better shape than ever (per CNN) to prosecute this war, while we are destroying our future by borrowing to finance a war that we knew from day 1 could not be won without either direct NATO or US involvement.
So we have made Russia richer, ourselves poorer, weakened our currency and potentially destroyed it if BRICS continues to gain steam, and prolonged a lot of killing.
And nobody can even explain why any of that had to happen in the first place.
Let that sink in. CNN is an arm of the DNC and the uniparty. If they are giving bad news, it’s really bad and probably even worse than they’re admitting.
Meanwhile, Russia is in better shape than ever (per CNN) to prosecute this war, while we are destroying our future by borrowing to finance a war that we knew from day 1 could not be won without either direct NATO or US involvement.
So we have made Russia richer, ourselves poorer, weakened our currency and potentially destroyed it if BRICS continues to gain steam, and prolonged a lot of killing.
And nobody can even explain why any of that had to happen in the first place.
Well the “ourselves” who matter got richer. That’s why it all needed to happen in the first place. That’s why funding needs to continue.
Harkens back to all the very stupid arguments made by the hack and others. You’d think they’d have figured it out by now, but no: very funny, laughy face.
Can't be. We're routinely told Russia is on the verge of collapse and Putin is about to be mutinied. At least that's what we're always told just before the plea for more giant funding to Ukraine.
But we're so close!
Well, there’s that little matter of the US, Britain and Russia signing an agreement with Ukraine in 1994 to protect them from invasion in exchange for them giving up the many nuclear missiles they had after the USSR broke up.
I think we all know at this point you’re talking about a symbolic agreement that carries no weight. This has been discussed ad nauseam.
If it had any weight, we’d be at war.
If it didn’t have any weight we wouldn’t be helping Ukraine repulse the invaders.
Not true. Read this thread and you will see that those against a settled resolution to the war that is killing and maiming so many Ukrainians do not believe your retort to be true.
That said, if the agreement was the driving force, I would think the U.S. would have done more to keep the invasion from happening in the first place. Again, the Olympics seemed much more important, at the time. We gave mere lip service to Russia’s aggression when we expected, reportedly, Russia to steamroll Ukraine. Had the agreement been the reason, we would have been much more aggressive with Putin when Russia telegraphed its intentions by amassing troops and armaments at the Ukrainian border for weeks.
