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Queen James is still whining...

IMO the difference is generational. Those of us who grew up watching the likes of MJ, Magic and Bird cannot relate to that level of mega star leaving his team to join forces with another star primarily in search of a championship. Today, free agency and crazy stupid salary caps have put the NBA in this position. Those days of guys remaining a star with one team (at least for the most productive years of their careers) are long gone and never to return.
 
You lose on all counts
30 years from now, these same haters will be telling their grandchildren that they witnessed greatness.

When playing days are over, stats & rings are all that matter. Lebron's numbers are going to be ungodly!
i don't think those conversations take place as much as you think. By the time one becomes a grand parent, sports grow strangely dim
 
Jordan is still the GOAT. He has the moments that will be forever remembered, the impressive stats, the wins, and the undefeated record in the finals without ever having to play in a Game 7. He benefited from a perfect window of opportunity for a new face of the NBA as Bird and Magic were on the back ends of their careers. It was a time before social media captured your every waking move. Jordan is the first athlete I can recall who became a brand/icon above anything else. He was truly bigger than his team and perhaps even bigger than the game of basketball at his peak.

However, like a few posters have stated, some people aren't old enough to really remember what it was like to watch Jordan. I argue that this both helps and hurts his legacy. The "newborns" who want to believe that LeBron is the best simply because that is all they have seen are incorrect. You have to do your research and understand that basketball began well before the 2003 draft. However, I'll take a particularly famous performance from Jordan's, like his 63 point outing against Boston in the '86 playoffs and argue that the fact that most don't remember the specifics of the game, only the outcome and his gaudy numbers play to MJ's advantage. If you go back and watch the game, Jordan took 41 shots while also attempting 21 free throws. This day in age, because of guys like Iverson and Carmelo those numbers don't seem so crazy. But consider this, the next highest amount of individual free throw attempts for either team? 9. Jordan had 63 points, 19 coming from the line. Larry Bird in the same game had 36 points while taking 14 less shots and 14 less free throws. Not to mention, the Bulls lost that game in double overtime. Yet this is one of those games that has been glorified and iconicized throughout the years. We are all quick to remember MJ's game winner against Byron Russell and the Jazz. Or his massive dunk on Patrick Ewing. There's the "spectacular move by Michael Jordan" play against the Lakers. These are all great moments for Jordan as well as the game of basketball. But there's a lot more to his career and not all are good, or even as impressive as we recall.

Some on here are calling LeBron a stat stuffer and I have to disagree. He loads up on points, rebounds, assists that few players in history have been able match. And he gets those stats by increasing the performance of every player around him. Hell, the guy took guards like Mo Williams and Mario Chalmers to the finals. Even when he was on the Heat, there was some telling stat about the Heat's record when either Wade or Bosh missed a game. The Heat were still something like 8-3. But when LeBron missed a game and both Bosh/Wade played the Heat were 1-4.

The season before LeBron was drafted to Cleveland they were 17-65. LeBron's first season, the Cavs went 35-47. LeBron's final season in Cleveland the first time around they went 61-21 (1st in Eastern Conference) only to drop to 15th (last) the next season with a record of 19-63. The year before LeBron's return to Cleveland? 33-49. Since then they have gone 53-29, 57-25, and 51-31 including three consecutive trips to the NBA finals and their first World Championship in almost their 50 years of existence.

In contrast to that, the two years that MJ was playing baseball the Bulls won 55 and 47 games those seasons. Each season making it to the playoffs.


As I initially stated before all of this blabbering, Jordan is still the Greatest of All-Time...but that title is always subject to change. To those claiming LeBron has already surpassed Jordan, while I disagree I do believe there is a discussion to have. For those claiming LeBron "sucks, is overrated, chokes, etc."...to me those all sound like personal critiques instead of objective takes on one of the greatest players the game has ever seen. My two cents, I'm out.
 
I've defended Lebron in this thread, but there are a lot of people in this thread acting like you're an idiot for believing Lebron is anywhere close to Jordan. I didn't see anything wrong with Ron Mehico's post and agreed with a lot of it.

The only people I would call haters are the people who use no statistics in their claims, talk about how much they hate Lebron and how overrated he is, and act like Jordan's will to win was so great that he would have won in the finals with a grade school team in his prime.


I think it is debatable and that Lebron should be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan. However it also is idiotic to make a statement like my earlier post saying that the Jordan led Bulls couldn't stay within 30 of the Cavs or Warriors.
 
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Jordon had a go-to nearly unstoppable shot his team could go to in the clutch. Lebron doesn't.
 
I've defended Lebron in this thread, but there are a lot of people in this thread acting like you're an idiot for believing Lebron is anywhere close to Jordan. I didn't see anything wrong with Ron Mehico's post and agreed with a lot of it.

The only people I would call haters are the people who use no statistics in their claims, talk about how much they hate Lebron and how overrated he is, and act like Jordan's will to win was so great that he would have won in the finals with a grade school team in his prime.
I've said he is one of the GOATs in NBA...I have not crowned him yet...I brought up some of his faults (in my eyes) and then I am labeled a hater...
it gets very hard to have reasonable debates with the two extremes...but is also fun to make fun of the extreme sides :)
 
I do too. That's just idiotic of anyone to say lol. I really don't think the Cavs overall are that great of a team. I think the Warriors and Bulls would be a good series. I wish there was a time machine that we could use to let teams like that play. I'd be rooting for the Bulls hard as I hate the Warriors.
There was an NBA exec just this week that mentioned something similar. He was asked if his team was being built to beat the Cavs. He mentioned no, the Cavs are a 1 person team.
 
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I've said he is one of the GOATs in NBA...I have not crowned him yet...I brought up some of his faults (in my eyes) and then I am labeled a hater...
it gets very hard to have reasonable debates with the two extremes...but is also fun to make fun of the extreme sides :)

I've not read your prior posts in the thread, but was talking about some people's posts I've read. There's nothing wrong with bringing up his flaws and I do think its good to wait and see how his career turns out. The biggest difference between Lebron and Jordan (and Lebron's biggest flaw imo) is the late game clutch factor. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Jerry West, and many of the other great players seemed to thrive late in the game when everything was on the line. Lebron has shrunk away from that and doesn't seem to want the ball the way the guys listed above did.

I think the whole GOAT argument is kind of stupid anyway. It's too hard to compare players from different eras. If modern day NBA players suddenly lived in the 60s/70s, they would be called for carrying every possession and would only play a quarter of every game as they would be in foul trouble. Training is much different now than then, defense wasn't emphasized as much, no 3 point line, quality of competition between eras, etc. It's too hard to compare and people usually go to one extreme or another.
 
Larry Bird maybe. He had the greatest turnaround in history with a 29 win team to a 61 win team his rookie year. No other superstars were added. Just sayin.

Larry is my second favorite all time. When I was a kid he was at the end of his run though. That turn around is absolutely impressive. But even our hero Mr Bird had some help in other seasons.

My general point was that LeBron is easily one of the top 5 or 10 players to ever lace them up and it's not a debate. I even understand why some say he is the greatest ever. His size, skill and athleticism coupled with his ability to win games are uncanny.

Kobe is definitely a notch below LeBron IMHO as well.
 
I've not read your prior posts in the thread, but was talking about some people's posts I've read. There's nothing wrong with bringing up his flaws and I do think its good to wait and see how his career turns out. The biggest difference between Lebron and Jordan (and Lebron's biggest flaw imo) is the late game clutch factor. Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kobe, Jerry West, and many of the other great players seemed to thrive late in the game when everything was on the line. Lebron has shrunk away from that and doesn't seem to want the ball the way the guys listed above did.

I think the whole GOAT argument is kind of stupid anyway. It's too hard to compare players from different eras. If modern day NBA players suddenly lived in the 60s/70s, they would be called for carrying every possession and would only play a quarter of every game as they would be in foul trouble. Training is much different now than then, defense wasn't emphasized as much, no 3 point line, quality of competition between eras, etc. It's too hard to compare and people usually go to one extreme or another.

LeBron absolutely took over in the finals last season. He didn't shy away from the moment. I do agree that he is more likely to defer the big shot than the others listed but it's not necessarily a flaw in his game. Jordan once deferred to Kerr and it turned out pretty good lol.

The comparing eras part of your post is spot on IMHO. It's impossible to know but fun to debate.
 
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It's largely a generational issue.....the whining. He's a millenial.

Is whining about generations and painting with broad brushes endemic in your generation? Or is it just an old person thing?

he would have to run to the locker room to change his diaper.

Quality material here. Missed an opportunity to compare Lebron to a LeWoman, but still got in a LeBaby joke. Quality, quality stuff.

So, instead of starting a new thread, I'll just drop this here and see if anyone wants to switch gears a bit. So, if you're LeBron, what do you do now? Deal Love and try to rent Paul George for a year? Jimmy Butler? Does he stick it out for a wasted year and then head San Antonio or LA with Chris Paul? It's pretty clear that he can't currently even reallly challenge Golden State right now. So, anybody got that hot take?

I don't think they were that far off (if game 3 flips, its 2-2, ignoring the chaos theory issues), but they need to do something. Love and Irving are their only real trade assets. I would trade Irving, but that's not going to happen. So trade Love for an elite wing with size (hey, Paul George), hope JR gets back to being a dangerous shooter and competent defender, fire Lue and bring in someone who can run an offense to get Lebron some rest, teach Irving to play defense or at least try, and run it back. Not much else they can do, really, because they're capped out and have no picks.

LeBron absolutely took over in the finals last season. He didn't shy away from the moment. I do agree that he is more likely to defer the big shot than the others listed but it's not necessarily a flaw in his game. Jordan once deferred to Kerr and it turned out pretty good.

Awesome username. Also, Jordan also passed up a last second shot for John Paxson in Game 6 of the 1993 Finals. Lose that game, and the Bulls face a dangerous Suns team (best they faced during their 6 championship years) in Phoenix for a game 7.
 
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So, instead of starting a new thread, I'll just drop this here and see if anyone wants to switch gears a bit. So, if you're LeBron, what do you do now? Deal Love and try to rent Paul George for a year? Jimmy Butler? Does he stick it out for a wasted year and then head San Antonio or LA with Chris Paul? It's pretty clear that he can't currently even reallly challenge Golden State right now. So, anybody got that hot take?

They need to deal Love. He's a waste in Cleveland. He was one of the premiere PF in the NBA until he went to the Cavs. His game isn't suited for their style. He needs to be able to move between the low and high post with a true PG playing beside him. He's been limited to being a spot up shooter and defensive rebounder. Lebron needs Kyrie. Last year Kyrie averaged 27 a game in the Finals and he's the guy who can take and make a jumper when they need one. The Cavs need a versatile player at the 4, at least to compete with Golden State The League is becoming positionless outside of Centers. They need rid of Deron Williams and could use a tall versatile backup point guard who can defend positions 1-3. Tristan Thompson's 82 million dollar contract is a killer on them. IMO.
 
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Just something to consider while we debate supoorting casts of MJ and LBJ... the year Jordan retired, thr Bulls still went to the playoffs. When LBJ left Cleveland, the Cavs went from the ECFs to either the worst or second worst team in the league. I have never likes the comparison though because LBJ plays way more like Magic than MJ. LBJ is the most talented all around player that's ever walked the Earth, IMO, but doesn't mean he's the GOAT.

Cleveland also lost multiple players that same year. That was the 2011 squad vs 1994 Bulls roster. Not the most fair comparison for that time. It would be like comparing Jordan on his 1986 team or something. Compare title teams. What did the Heat do in 2015? That's probably a more accurate example.
 
I've always wondered if Jordan would still have this odd infallible ora about him if he'd played in a time with social media. People have made him god-like over the years.

More people would know he's a POS. Read When Nothing Else Matters. It's an incredible look at Jordan during the Wizards years.

I did a presentation on Jordan in college and it was regarding the manufacturing of his image. He was super protected regarding his portrayal and not being controversal.

It doesn't take away from how amazing he was as a player but he was definitely a dick.
 
Agreed Cleveland is in need of an athletic piece to win another title any time soon (barring injuries to GS). Paul George would be perfect maybe Jimmy Butler if they can't acquire George. Im not a trade guru but I think it would be tough to get either without giving up Love or uncle Drew in return.
 
More people would know he's a POS. Read When Nothing Else Matters. It's an incredible look at Jordan during the Wizards years.

I did a presentation on Jordan in college and it was regarding the manufacturing of his image. He was super protected regarding his portrayal and not being controversal.

It doesn't take away from how amazing he was as a player but he was definitely a dick.

Agreed on that point. His hall of fame speech was a perfect example of his personality in a nut shell. It worked out great on the court but I wonder how many real friends the guy made over the years.

Jordan was not only the most skilled player on the court but often times (especially after the bad boy era) he was a bully on the court. He seemed like he would punch an opponent or a teammate if either stepped out of line lol.
 
Michael Jordan helped save the NBA. Magic and Bird had started David Stern's marketing plan to salvage a drug-riddled, league of apathetic players but MJ sealed the deal a few years later. The league did everything possible to protect it's number one attraction and most of Jordan's faults were not only tolerated but hidden.

He had the advantage of every whistle, every close call, and every consideration from league management both on and off the court. If Michael Jordan were playing in today's player-emphasized league, there would be no doubt to anyone that LeBron is the better player.
 
Michael Jordan helped save the NBA. Magic and Bird had started David Stern's marketing plan to salvage a drug-riddled, league of apathetic players but MJ sealed the deal a few years later. The league did everything possible to protect it's number one attraction and most of Jordan's faults were not only tolerated but hidden.

He had the advantage of every whistle, every close call, and every consideration from league management both on and off the court. If Michael Jordan were playing in today's player-emphasized league, there would be no doubt to anyone that LeBron is the better player.
thats your opinion and im not gone argue that..its things about lebron people can say he gets the calls, gets protection, is his own teams coach, gets any players he wants etc...but i like to argue stats, wins, awards, accomplishments on who is the better player. and i can go with u tic for tac if u want too?
 
It's all in fun. I appreciate and respect anyone's opinion courteously stated.
I have 2 teams in this wide world of sports:
The Kentucky Wildcats and the New York Knicks and all others be damned.

Jordan tortured the Knicks and I'll always hate him in the same way I hate Ricky Blanton, Kemba Walker, Miles Simon, CL, and more.
 
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James whined the first time around in Cleveland, so he took "his talents" to South Beach where he teamed with Wade and Bosh. Then that was not good enough for him so he packed his bags and went back to Cleveland. The Cavs had Irving, Love, etc and won a title, still during this past regular season he whined that they need more "star" players. He puts up a triple-double in the finals and the Cavs lose 4-1. Now he says he has never played on a "super" team..so I guess he is going to jump ship again and go looking for a team with more All-Stars than the Warriors. James is a very talented player but he is not and the GOAT and should not be in the conversation. I continue to be amazed at the people who consider Jordan to be the GOAT yet they forget about what Russell and Kareem did. In one game in the finals back in the lat 60's..Russell grabbed 40 rebounds..think about that..give me these 2 and I will let anyone pick the next 2..
 
honestly curious. Did you watch Jordan through clips and YouTube or did you actually live through it? I have a hard time believing anyone who lived through the Jordan era could honestly say lebron is better. Mj was a killer who refused to lose. I hated his guts. But as an adult now, I can at least admire what he accomplished. 6 out of 8 titles and probably wins 8 in a row if he doesn't take time off to play baseball.
If he refused to lose, why did he only make the Finals 6 times in 15 seasons? That's a lot of losing for a guy who refused to lose. I watched Jordan's entire career -- college and pro. He was the best scorer I've ever seen. But Lebron is the best all-around player I've ever seen, and that's not even debatable. They are the two greatest players of my lifetime. And both have a strong case for being #1.
 
If he refused to lose, why did he only make the Finals 6 times in 15 seasons? That's a lot of losing for a guy who refused to lose. I watched Jordan's entire career -- college and pro. He was the best scorer I've ever seen. But Lebron is the best all-around player I've ever seen, and that's not even debatable. They are the two greatest players of my lifetime. And both have a strong case for being #1.
i bet i can debate you why a 6'6 sg is all around better than a 6'9 sf, i have stats to back it up.
 
If you don't have Jordan in the top three you are nuts. You may not like him, you may value overall titles, but to say maybe top ten is a ridiculous statement.


Don't think I can ever actually rank them, but to say MJ is better than:
Chamberlain
Jabbar
Bird
Magic
Russell

Is also rediculous.
 
Look at MJs stats. He is GOAT and that's not even a debate at this point. Just a killer and improved his shot to make himself into one the best mid range jump shooters of all time from not being able to hit anything outside of 15 feet until age 24. He was a stopper as well on defense.

Hard for me to say but LBJ is more gifted physically. Just a monster with video game athleticism. He only lacks the drive MJ has but that is the gap.
 
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