POLL: Is there a God ??

[Caveman Catfan]

What utter nonsense:

Of course our modern morality flawed as it is, is Superior. It's not even an argument. The Old Testament condones-even encourages the following: Genital mutilation, murder of innocent women and children, blood magic through animal and occasional human sacrifice, including child sacrifice, slavery, kidnapping of others for slavery and rape, and even rape in general (unless you think maybe forcing your sister or daughter to marry her rapist is A-OK).

Of course none of these sound like anything a God would endorse, but they sound exactly what an ancient stone to Bronze Age society would endorse and practice. Out of virgins in your own town? Why just ambush the next town over at the community dance, and kidnap their young girls and rape them-TWO at a time! No need for Tendr on that one. But the truth is that all early Middle Eastern civilizations behaved in much the same way.

So that brings us to the New Testament, which I will agree on the surface is a little kinder gentler. God apparently has a change of heart on the Genital mutilation thing, although he fails to address that through Jesus or himself depending on your view of the Trinity. The end of circumcision comes from Paul and not Jesus. For some unexplained reason, the gentiles he was trying to convert felt cutting off the ends of their Penises was a dealbreaker. God changes his mind on few other things too-he seems to cool on the burnt of offerings of animals and humans, the old dietary laws go out the window, and he goes from endorsing having your fun with virgins to being damned for lust in your heart.

Of course slavery is still fine, and misogyny and racism were very much acceptable. Why? Because those were the prevailing values of the time. Even after the Romans and Mediterranean world became"'Christian" the murdering and raping continued , although it became in the name of Jesus, instead of supporting Mosaic law.

Point is, morality is part of our innate empathy and reason which evolves over time (even Jesus appears to have agreed that we evolve morally), and that TRULY is self evident.


.

So much ignorance in this ^^ post it amazes me this far into this thread. The people who keep asking questions won’t do the work to find the answers and don’t accept answers spoon fed to them. Reveling in ignorance or attempting to deceive others to ignorance has been what this thread is about.

Mad will yet again seek an explanation, but (1) his lengthy diatribe is riddled and (2) the answers are in this thread.

But, claiming innate morality is anything but scientific and actually points to a moral creator. So, there is that. LOL

 

[ukdesi]

The foundation of western morality is primacy of the individual, which was a foreign concept until Christ.

It no longer mattered your station in life, what role you played, or whatever other superficial characteristic like whether you were Jew or Greek: you are all equal... you have infinite value as an individual because you are a unique soul made in His image.

This foreign concept later becomes a "self-evident" truth, literally this nation's first sentence.

Most societies in the world today that haven't had much Christian influence seem to live together as decent people. Moreover, it took nearly 1800 years for this nation to form post Christ-- so it seems morality has developed over time, whether Christian influenced or not.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Most societies in the world today that haven't had much Christian influence seem to live together as decent people. Moreover, it took nearly 1800 years for this nation to form post Christ-- so it seems morality has developed over time, whether Christian influenced or not.

The western world changed dramatically because of Jesus’s teachings. We are the beneficiaries of that change. This is not really debatable.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

Hah, ok.... I'll stop there, thanks and not even give you my usual customary skim. I realize this is the internet, but if you can't even maintain some level of decorum nevertheless, then I know all I need to know. I know why you react such, do you? No, it's not because what I typed was nonsensical.

It's not like I don't know "your "atheist argument. I've even read books on it by people like Dawkins. It's a remarkably shallow and weak argument, a serious error; you're welcome to it as classical liberalism, the evolution of our society from its Christian foundation, demands.

Your philosophy pales in comparison to what is only found in the Bible, and that's not incidental. I'm already aware of all your rationalizations and what that produces.

You think a flood with no evidence wiped out humanity once. You think Jews were enslaved in Egypt and then freed when no such record exists. The Bible is the worst piece of evidence to use to support the existence of a god at all.

 

[ukdesi]

The western world changed dramatically because of Jesus’s teachings. We are the beneficiaries of that change. This is not really debatable.

I don't know enough to argue for or against that -- my point is Christianity is not necessary for morality -- morality has evolved over time, whether Christian influenced or not.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I don't know enough to argue for or against that -- my point is Christianity is not necessary for morality -- morality has evolved over time, whether Christian influenced or not.

We will disagree and I don’t see the value in the debate.

My comment above, however, about not being debatable was incorrect and I want to correct it. I feel strongly, but the issue is debatable.

To that admission, here is a debate between two atheists on the subject.

 

[ukdesi]

We will disagree and I don’t see the value in the debate.

My comment above, however, about not being debatable was incorrect and I want to correct it. I feel strongly, but the issue is debatable.

To that admission, here is a debate between two atheists on the subject.

View embedded media

Fair enough. If you or anyone else is interested, here are a couple different views of the subject. I won't say opposing views, but I like to look at both sides of any debate.

Christianity and the foundations of western society

Being a secular democracy, is it appropriate for Christianity to occupy an elevated public position in our society? Apart from purely faith-based arguments for Christianity’s occupying such a posit…

ivarssoniad.wordpress.com

Is democracy a Christian form of government? | GotQuestions.org

Is democracy a Christian form of government? According to the Bible, should a government be democratic?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[christophero]

So if the Bible didn't exist we would have no morality? I knew right from wrong when I was 5. Feel free to have faith, but some of these claims are a bit much.

 

[mcnicKY91]

You think a flood with no evidence wiped out humanity once. You think Jews were enslaved in Egypt and then freed when no such record exists. The Bible is the worst piece of evidence to use to support the existence of a god at all.

For something that is the worst piece of evidence to support the existence of God...it amazes me how many biblical prophecies have come true. Absolutely stunning. But I am sure you will just chalk that up to coincidence, or luck.

If you have the time, google biblical prophecy that has come true. Pretty cool stuff.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

For something that is the worst piece of evidence to support the existence of God...it amazes me how many biblical prophecies have come true. Absolutely stunning. But I am sure you will just chalk that up to coincidence, or luck.

If you have the time, google biblical prophecy that has come true. Pretty cool stuff.

I have before. All I get are prophecies that have come "true" based on stories in the Bible. Things like Jesus resurrecting, etc. None of which are proven.

 

[mcnicKY91]

So if the Bible didn't exist we would have no morality? I knew right from wrong when I was 5. Feel free to have faith, but some of these claims are a bit much.

You are inherently given that morality. It is in when you are born. That is how God created us.

Objective morality comes from God. Majority of atheists, in good faith, will tell you their camp has an extremely difficult time explaining where morality comes from if God doesn't exist. Watch any debate.

If we randomly came into being and are just a bunch of chemicals floating around in our brains, how on Earth does one decide whose morality is best? Whose chemicals take precedence? It inherently becomes subjective at that point. Anything goes, according to one's own morality.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I have before. All I get are prophecies that have come "true" based on stories in the Bible. Things like Jesus resurrecting, etc. None of which are proven.

Then no offense, but you have done a terrible job researching.

I will give you just one, of the many. Jesus predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed 40 years before it actually happened. He claimed, before His death, that before the current generation passes away (the people he was telling this to), Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed because of their rejection of Him. Sure enough, in 70 AD (and this is not in the Bible, this is a historical fact that happened), the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and their temple, within the same generation, just as Jesus literally predicted.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

So if the Bible didn't exist we would have no morality? I knew right from wrong when I was 5. Feel free to have faith, but some of these claims are a bit much.

Interesting take. Maybe someone has made that argument and I missed it. If God does not exist, morality is fungible and fluid and not real, but only perceived and agreed upon by the group within which you associate. There is no irrefutable right and wrong if such things are fluid and subject to the view of a majority.

And, I doubt anyone here thinks you knew right from wrong at age five. You may have understood some aspects of the concept, but ethics is something debated even in the atheist realm by educated adults, so I don’t think we need to pat you on the back for that.

 

[christophero]

But not every culture believes in God, and most of them don't run around like it's Mad Max. I do admit the Bible had some influence on our culture. I wasn't patting myself on the back; just pointing something out. You seem to be saying that without God/the 10 commandments we wouldn't know right from wrong or have a consensus. That's fine; but it's very hard to prove or disprove such a broad claim.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

In the 1940s comic strip detective Dick Tracy was using a wrist watch to communicate. Decades before the Apple Watch was introduced. A prophecy come true!

Dick Tracy, therefore, is a real person.

---

 

[christophero]

He looks like Warren Beatty.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

In the 1940s comic strip detective Dick Tracy was using a wrist watch to communicate. Decades before the Apple Watch was introduced. A prophecy come true!

Dick Tracy, therefore, is a real person.

---

It’s kind a fringe extreme belief that Jesus was not a real person.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

But not every culture believes in God, and most of them don't run around like it's Mad Max. I do admit the Bible had some influence on our culture. I wasn't patting myself on the back; just pointing something out. You seem to be saying that without God/the 10 commandments we wouldn't know right from wrong or have a consensus. That's fine; but it's very hard to prove or disprove such a broad claim.

I don’t know why you would think people would be running around like Mad Max without a belief in God. Definitive right and wrong is not premised upon you believing in God. If God exists, He is the arbiter of what is good and what is evil, as the holy creator. That does not mean the people made in His image would get morality completely wrong without belief. But, without God and a definitive morality, morality is merely a social construct and there is no true good.

 

[christophero]

Fair enough.

 

[Ron Mehico]

Then no offense, but you have done a terrible job researching.

I will give you just one, of the many. Jesus predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed 40 years before it actually happened. He claimed, before His death, that before the current generation passes away (the people he was telling this to), Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed because of their rejection of Him. Sure enough, in 70 AD (and this is not in the Bible, this is a historical fact that happened), the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and their temple, within the same generation, just as Jesus literally predicted.

Wasnt the Bible written after 70AD? Or are you talking about the Old Testament?

 

[christophero]

Most scholars believe it was written from 50-100 AD. Some say later than that.

 

[MidseasonTweak]

Then no offense, but you have done a terrible job researching.

I will give you just one, of the many. Jesus predicted Jerusalem would be destroyed 40 years before it actually happened. He claimed, before His death, that before the current generation passes away (the people he was telling this to), Jerusalem would be surrounded by armies and destroyed because of their rejection of Him. Sure enough, in 70 AD (and this is not in the Bible, this is a historical fact that happened), the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and their temple, within the same generation, just as Jesus literally predicted.

So? Jerusalem has been destroyed before, besieged many times, captured many times throughout history. That prediction isn't hard to make. I have also made predictions. I predicted Kentucky would win the national championship in 2012. Am I a god?

 

[Irish Beck]

TIL Da Vinci is a deity.

I just want to know that if God is all knowing, all powerful and omni-present, why do bad things happen to children? Why is childhood cancer a thing? Is the world imperfect? Why the holocaust? Rampant hunger? Disease, illness & hate?

If God is all powerful, why does he require faith? There are nearly 8 billion people and well over half of those are believers in Judaism, Christianity, Islam and Buddhism. Many religions believe you will not seek the after life if you believe in another religion. You're telling me an all-knowing all-loving God would condemn 5-7 billion people to hell because they were born in the wrong country?

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.”​

 

[mcnicKY91]

So? Jerusalem has been destroyed before, besieged many times, captured many times throughout history. That prediction isn't hard to make. I have also made predictions. I predicted Kentucky would win the national championship in 2012. Am I a god?

I think you would agree there is a difference to blindly throwing predictions at the wall and hoping they stick (I predicted UK would win it all in 2015...maybe I shouldn't have done that lol), as opposed to prophecy coming to fruition in the exact terms that someone lays out. That is pretty impressive to me.

I mean, I could predict every year that UK will win...and when they finally do, I ain't calling myself God.

If you would have told me who exactly the Cats would have played during their 6 game tournament run, and the score of each game...maybe you would be on to something.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

So much ignorance in this ^^ post it amazes me this far into this thread. The people who keep asking questions won’t do the work to find the answers and don’t accept answers spoon fed to them. Reveling in ignorance or attempting to deceive others to ignorance has been what this thread is about.

Mad will yet again seek an explanation, but (1) his lengthy diatribe is riddled and (2) the answers are in this thread.

But, claiming innate morality is anything but scientific and actually points to a moral creator. So, there is that. LOL

You always have a lot to say, and of course you have your insults, but of course you don't have any meaningful rebuttal. Is there any specific item in my description of the Old Testament morality with which you would like to take issue? I'll be happy to discuss chapter and verse with you.

How about my summation of the New Testament? The only comment that I made that wasn't completely factual was my comment on the apostle Paul. I seriously don't know if he lightened up on the circumcision requirement because the gentiles were pretty negative about it. I do know it's puzzling that after two thousand years, God would change his mind, but wouldn't reveal his change while was here on earth, waiting to reveal this drastic change in corporate policy through a normal earth man. Again, it's all pretty cut and dried unless you want to take up for slavery and misogyny etc.

And of course whatever we have that passes for morality is innate. It stems from our own consciousness and our sense of empathy and reason, which as I've pointed, has evolved over time, although admittedly has a long way to go. If it were endowed by some creator, it would be completely developed from day one of the human race, it wouldn't change in accordance with the times, it wouldn't be situational, and it would be Universal, which of course it's not. Unless you'd like to argue that your creator is just that fickle..and chooses only a select few with whom to communicate

 

[Caveman Catfan]

You always have a lot to say, and of course you have your insults, but of course you don't have any meaningful rebuttal. Is there any specific item in my description of the Old Testament morality with which you would like to take issue? I'll be happy to discuss chapter and verse with you.

How about my summation of the New Testament? The only comment that I made that wasn't completely factual was my comment on the apostle Paul. I seriously don't know if he lightened up on the circumcision requirement because the gentiles were pretty negative about it. I do know it's puzzling that after two thousand years, God would change his mind, but wouldn't reveal his change while was here on earth, waiting to reveal this drastic change in corporate policy through a normal earth man. Again, it's all pretty cut and dried unless you want to take up for slavery and misogyny etc.

And of course whatever we have that passes for morality is innate. It stems from our own consciousness and our sense of empathy and reason, which as I've pointed, has evolved over time, although admittedly has a long way to go. If it were endowed by some creator, it would be completely developed from day one of the human race, it wouldn't change in accordance with the times, it wouldn't be situational, and it would be Universal, which of course it's not. Unless you'd like to argue that your creator is just that fickle..and chooses only a select few with whom to communicate

Review this thread and see how much you have said. 🤦‍♂️

Claiming you are ignorant of the text is not an insult. Claiming you have not seriously read others’ posts in this thread is a conclusion based upon the fact that you repeatedly engage with the same discussion and questions already addressed.

And, you can evidence your OT and NT conclusions. I don’t want to assume what you are claiming as evidence. Plus, I don’t care to wade through that word salad.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Most scholars believe it was written from 50-100 AD. Some say later than that.

So, JC made a prediction. He told some people. Then, according to these guesstimates, someone wrote it down no less than 20 years later? Or possibly, again according to these guesstimates, it could have been written down 30 years after Jerusalem was attacked and 70 years after JC told someone it would be attacked.

And you are amazed by the accuracy of the prediction?

 

[mcnicKY91]

So, JC made a prediction. He told some people. Then, according to these guesstimates, someone wrote it down no less than 20 years later? Or possibly, again according to these guesstimates, it could have been written down 30 years after Jerusalem was attacked and 70 years after JC told someone it would be attacked.

And you are amazed by the accuracy of the prediction?

The books of Matthew and Luke, where Jesus' prophecy is documented, were written before AD 70.

So yes, somebody prophesying that a major city is going to be demolished, and then it happens, is remarkable.

All the Old Testament prophecy that said Jesus would walk the Earth occurred, even more remarkable.

In 332 B.C., Alexander the Great conquered the island fortress of Tyre by building a causeway from the ruins of the old city. This fulfilled the prophecy in Ezekiel 26:4-5, written hundreds of years before. At the time of Ezekiel, Tyre was the capital of Phoenicia and the island fortress had not yet been built. Ezekiel predicted:

“They shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers: I will also scrape her dust from her, and make her like the top of a rock. It shall be a place for the spreading of nets in the midst of the sea.”

Two hundred years later, Alexander scraped away everything, leaving bare rock.

An amazing prophecy is found in Revelation 11:9. In 90 A.D., the prediction was made that many nations would view the same event within a few days time. Today, billions of people from around the world simultaneously view the same event through mass communication. When the prediction was made, communication and transportation across the Roman Empire took months of time.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

The books of Matthew and Luke, where Jesus' prophecy is documented, were written before AD 70.

So yes, somebody prophesying that a major city is going to be demolished, and then it happens, is remarkable.

All the Old Testament prophecy that said Jesus would walk the Earth occurred, even more remarkable.

Do you recall things that someone told you back in 1983? And could you write down, with great accuracy, what was said? Because that’s what you’re claiming happened here. And what you seemed to be amazed by.

And when was the OT prophecy about JC written down? And even if it was written down prior to the year 1 AD, the book predicts the son of god will be born, then later, the same book says the son of god was born. You find this remarkable?

 

[mcnicKY91]

Do you recall things that someone told you back in 1983? And could you write down, with great accuracy, what was said? Because that’s what you’re claiming happened here. And what you seemed to be amazed by.

And when was the OT prophecy about JC written down? And even if it was written down prior to the year 1 AD, the book predicts the son of god will be born, then later, the same book says the son of god was born. You find this remarkable?

Dude. I literally just gave you four examples of biblical text, that was written well before the actual prophecy came to fruition. How do you explain that? And these are all prophecies that can be proven to have occurred outside the Bible. To perfection. What else do you want?

And to answer your question, Old Testamsnt was written long before Jesus was born, way before.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Dude. I literally just gave you four examples of biblical text, that was written well before the actual prophecy came to fruition. How do you explain that? And these are all prophecies that can be proven to have occurred outside the Bible. To perfection. What else do you want?

And to answer your question, Old Testamsnt was written long before Jesus was born, way before.

What year was the OT written?

Again, the buybull predicts that the son of god will be born. Then the buybull says that the son of god was born. Exactly how is your mind blown by this? I can’t get my head around it.

 

[mcnicKY91]

What year was the OT written?

Again, the buybull predicts that the son of god will be born. Then the buybull says that the son of god was born. Exactly how is your mind blown by this? I can’t get my head around it.

Between 1300 BC and 200 BC.

I have no idea what you are referencing about Jesus not being born and then born...you will have to tell me where to look biblically.

Again, take away the prophecy about Jesus. What about the other ones? That were predicted and written down long before they happened. How can you logically and intelligently discount them?

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Between 1300 BC and 200 BC.

I have no idea what you are referencing about Jesus not being born and then born...you will have to tell me where to look biblically.

Again, take away the prophecy about Jesus. What about the other ones? That were predicted and written down long before they happened. How can you logically and intelligently discount them?

I’m saying that the OT predicts that the son of god will be born. Then, the NT says that the son of HOF was indeed born. How is that mind blowing?

I discount your prophecies the same way I discount the Dick Tracy prophesy of the Apple Watch.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I’m saying that the OT predicts that the son of god will be born. Then, the NT says that the son of HOF was indeed born. How is that mind blowing?

I discount your prophecies the same way I discount the Dick Tracy prophesy of the Apple Watch.

No offense, but your Dick Tracy argument/analogy blows chunks my man. Gotta do exponentially better than that in a debate. If you said that to me in a debate forum in front of hundreds of ppl, you would get laughed off the stage. Even staunch atheists would shake their heads.

Don't worry about what the NT says about Jesus....the OT predicted His coming. And what do you know, Jesus Christ is the most proven to be true person in the history of the world, outside of what NT says. How did the OT writers know this man would come to Earth hundreds of years before?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Do you recall things that someone told you back in 1983? And could you write down, with great accuracy, what was said? Because that’s what you’re claiming happened here. And what you seemed to be amazed by.

And when was the OT prophecy about JC written down? And even if it was written down prior to the year 1 AD, the book predicts the son of god will be born, then later, the same book says the son of god was born. You find this remarkable?

The disciples of Jesus followed him for three years. We have to assume they heard a lot of the same information and teachings during that time. And, the Q was likely written very near Jesus’s death and appears to be a common source for the synoptic gospels.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

No offense, but your Dick Tracy argument/analogy blows chunks my man. Gotta do exponentially better than that in a debate. If you said that to me in a debate forum in front of hundreds of ppl, you would get laughed off the stage. Even staunch atheists would shake their heads.

Don't worry about what the NT says about Jesus....the OT predicted His coming. And what do you know, Jesus Christ is the most proven to be true person in the history of the world, outside of what NT says. How did the OT writers know this man would come to Earth hundreds of years before?

You say he is a proven person. But is he the son of god? And who proved he was the son of god? And where can I read this peer-reviewed research proving that he was the son of god?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

You say he is a proven person. But is he the son of god? And who proved he was the son of god? And where can I read this peer-reviewed research proving that he was the son of god?

“Peer-reviewed” becoming part of the common vernacular lowered the IQ of us all. LOL!!!

 

[SDC888]

You say he is a proven person. But is he the son of god? And who proved he was the son of god? And where can I read this peer-reviewed research proving that he was the son of god?

He proves it Himself through the resurrection; corroborating eyewitness testimony, under penaly of death.

What would you die for? Something you knew wasn't true, or something you know is and is worthwhile.

Fair enough. If you or anyone else is interested, here are a couple different views of the subject. I won't say opposing views, but I like to look at both sides of any debate.

Christianity and the foundations of western society

Being a secular democracy, is it appropriate for Christianity to occupy an elevated public position in our society? Apart from purely faith-based arguments for Christianity’s occupying such a posit…

ivarssoniad.wordpress.com

Is democracy a Christian form of government? | GotQuestions.org

Is democracy a Christian form of government? According to the Bible, should a government be democratic?

www.gotquestions.org

There are always two sides, but to say something would've arisen similarly under conspicuously absent conditions which were directly causal, is always fraught with speculation, and is therefore, all things being equal, inherently the weaker argument.

It's a very poor argument to say you can denude our social structure and its mores from the religion that was instrumental to its creation and get the same result.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

He proves it Himself through the resurrection; corroborating eyewitness testimony, under penaly of death.

What would you die for? Something you knew wasn't true, or something you know is and is worthwhile.


There are always two sides, but to say something would've arisen similarly under conspicuously absent conditions which were directly causal, is always fraught with speculation, and is therefore, all things being equal, inherently the weaker argument.

It's a very poor argument to say you can denude our social structure and its mores from the religion that was instrumental to its creation and get the same result.

So, your favorite 2,000 year old book predicts the son of god will come, it then verifies that the son of god came, it tells that he rose from the dead after a weekend in a tomb and rose up into the sky, and it then tells the tales of the eyewitnesses that saw the whole thing.

And this is your proof that it is all factual? Really? The master debater that knows how to prove points in front of a live audience? You will stick with this as proof?

 

[mcnicKY91]

So, your favorite 2,000 year old book predicts the son of god will come, it then verifies that the son of god came, it tells that he rose from the dead after a weekend in a tomb and rose up into the sky, and it then tells the tales of the eyewitnesses that saw the whole thing.

And this is your proof that it is all factual? Really? The master debater that knows how to prove points in front of a live audience? You will stick with this as proof?

SDC said he was a master debater?