WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Yeah, no, I guess that was you that pointed out the skills and resources needed to be a master debater. I get my gullible theists mixed some times.
POLL: Is there a God ??
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Yeah, no, I guess that was you that pointed out the skills and resources needed to be a master debater. I get my gullible theists mixed some times.
He proved it to those there, yes.
But that is not "my" proof to you. I already said that one cannot prove through argument His reality to another person.
But would you die for something you knew wasn't true? Of course you wouldn't.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
No one would willingly die for something they knew wasn’t true. Not sure what point you’re trying to make.
There is no speculation-- morality has developed over time for all societies, regardless of Christian influence or not.
I never said morality wouldn't or couldn't develop, evolve and change, but that our Western morality, as it is commonly appreciated today, wouldn't and didn't.
You (anyone) are going to have to go through a lot of speculative loops to say we would be where we are today without the foundational thinkers who got us here, who were Christian and reasoned as Christians. We would have a different morality, not no morality.
Stories aren't proof. A lot of people have seen UFOs too and have even taken pictures and passed lie detectors. Still doesn't prove anything. Those people dying for their beliefs prove they had strong faith.
Lots of Muslim people have died for their faith.
Lots of Muslim people have died for their faith.
If Hitler had asked Jesus into his heart/asked for forgiveness before he died, he would go to heaven.
Meanwhile the Jews that Hitler starved, tortured, dehumanized, and gassed in a genocide wound up in hell.
Make it make sense.
Meanwhile the Jews that Hitler starved, tortured, dehumanized, and gassed in a genocide wound up in hell.
Make it make sense.
There is a very important distinction that you are not making....Jesus' disciples were martyred/crucified because they would not recant what they actually saw (they died for telling the truth, if they would have recanted and lied that it didnt happen, they wouldnt have been killed)...Muslims who die for their faith are dying for something they sincerely believe, but have heard secondhand.
Big difference between the two.
They died because they wouldn't renounce Jesus. So I give you they are different but not completely different. And again, proof that they believed that Jesus was divine. Not proof he was divine. Not saying he wasn't; but that is not really proof.
I am saying that the disciples were there to see Jesus crucified. On top of that, Jesus appeared to them after His resurrection. So the disciples physically saw the resurrected Jesus. They were all martyred as a result, especially because Christianity was exploding, and crucifixion became a very common form of Roman execution for early Christians, especially the disciples.
Muslims who die in the name of their faith do so with second hand information of their faith. They were not around to see Muhammad.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Bull
Shit!
I believe that disciples saw zombie jesus less than I believe the dude earlier in this thread that claimed he went thru a portal to another dimension. And that was some major league bull shit.
““There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried, and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— for I have five brothers—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’””
Luke 16:19-31 ESV
Luke 16:19-31 ESV
For sure dude, right back at you. Always enjoy a good discussion doneso in good faith by both parties.
Ok...then you will have to explain why all of Jesus' disciples were martyred, and many crucified. Crucifixion of early Christians was a common form of execution by the Roman government. This is a historical fact.
What did the disciples get out of making up that they saw the resurrected Jesus? Power? Status? Authority? Money? Good looking women? The answer would be none of the above. They were constantly on the run avoiding execution. Why do that if you can just say "Sorry, I made it up," and then all would be forgiven. Why holdon to something and die for it if it isn't true? Who does that? Makes no sense.
You have not provided any alternative to the facts I am laying out.
God is supposedly all-powerful yet still has disbelievers because there isn't verifiable proof for some people (me included). All God would have to do in this case is come down to Earth for a second, say "hey, I'm God and I'm real," do some God-like things then go back up to heaven and will have won over millions of non-believers because they would have now seen that he in fact does exist. Yet, he has yet to do so and, in the minds of Christians, allows all of us non-believers to eventually end up in the fiery pits of hell simply because God doesn't want to show himself to the world in "physical form" even though he allegedly has all the power to do so. I already know someone is gonna say, "well even if he did that some people still wouldn't believe," and maybe that's true, but at least for me, if he did that it would do a lot more in terms of thinking that some superior form is out there controlling life. Make it make sense
You DO so love to talk in circles. I guess if my position was as weak as yours, I would too.
My basic point is that human morality has evolved over time. My evidence is your book supposedly written by your deity, although of course through the hand of men. It's crystal clear that your book becomes a little kinder and gentler over time and over two thousand years, because a bit more modern, while still embracing some behaviors we no longer find viable today. Again in keeping with my point.
Of course we're still skirting the idea of eternal punishment. What entity could sentence anything it professes to love to an eternity of unimaginable torture. How can that be moral by any stretch of anyone's imagination?
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
The alternative I offer is that people do not come back to life 3 days after they die. Egyptian pharaohs didn’t. The person we now know as Jesus didn’t. Zombies on The Walking Dead didn’t. It does not happen. I think you may be confusing fiction for fact.
I think you answered yourself in your post. Even if God came down and spoke to the majority of atheists/non believers, they still wouldn't worship God and give their hearts to Him. They absolute hate God, or the idea of God existing. This thread 100% proves that.
Any atheist you come into contact with, like clockwork, shifts from debating the reality of God to crapping on "perceived" character flaws that they parrot from other atheists they see online, in an attempt to make Christians look morally inferior. They will yell from the rooftop "How do you sleep at night worshipping a genocidal, slavery supporting, baby killing, cancer causing moral monster." There is no originality. The majority don't do the leg work to understand, or at least attempt to understand, the context of why those things happened biblically. And as believers, when we provide the context for why these things happened, are in turn mocked.
There is tons of evidence for God's existence. I don't need Him to come down and tap me on the shoulder and say "Hey, here I am."
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No, an alternative for why the disciples decided to be martyred for something they claim to have seen (resurrected Jesus), when they could have easily said they were lying and saved themselves. What did they get out of that? What on Earth could they possibly have benefited from by saying that they saw the resurrected Jesus? You are avoiding the obvious question that I am asking.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I don’t have an answer for you. You are using “facts” from what I believe is a book filled with fantasy and fiction. And perhaps hallucinations. How can I offer a counter argument to that? Other than to say people do not come back to life after being dead for 3 days. And if JC’s posse thought he did, they were wrong about that.
Dude, perhaps they did it to keep people believing that Jesus was the son of god. perhaps they were high.
You may not need that because you already believe but for people who need more than just simple faith, there is a greater requirement of proof. There's absolutely no way that you're going to convert everyone but if God came down and showed himself in ways greater than what is currently happening, I guarantee that he would be able to convert a vast number of people.
What's not helping, though, is that all society sees is the hate-filled speech coming from people who categorize themselves as Christians. If God loved the world as much as everyone claims then his people wouldn't include such hateful creatures who look down upon people who don't view the world like they do and use their holy book as reason to make the lives of others worse. There's a reason that society is becoming less religious and Christians need to take a look in the mirror and stop blaming "Satan's control over society" and realize that toting the Bible to hate people is pushing society away from religion.
Personally I am not atheist nor a believer because with what we've seen throughout history, there is no verifiable way to either prove or disprove the existence of a greater power but that's just me.
Those Christians who act in the manner that you just outlined are not genuine Christians. Don't base you viewpoint on Christianity as a whole because of idiots who aren't genuine believers and run their mouths. I don't do that to other groups of people, I would hope people wouldn't do that to genuine believers. And on behalf of genuine believers, I would like to apologize to you if you have been negatively effected by those fake Christians you mentioned above.
To me, it comes down to two options. Either the Universe and fine tuned Earth were created by an intelligent designer who is eternal and is outside time, matter, and space (had to be to create time, matter, and space), or all of this happened from nothing.
Something cannot come from nothing. That is a logical and scientific impossibility. And the fact that people think all this can come from nothing, quite frankly, is absurd.
I am not using facts from the Bible. Only two of the 12 disciples' deaths are recorded in the Bible (Judas hung himself, and James was executed by Herod, which can be seen in Acts 12)...it is a historical fact that early Christians, and this includes the disciples, were consistently executed via Roman crucifixion.
If you want to deny that historical fact, that is your call. I have provided you with plenty of non biblical support for numerous prophecies coming true, as well as what happened to early Christians at the hands of the Roman govt. If you don't want to accept factual evidence, you have lost credibility as a poster.
If a god did create everything, there still isn't any evidence that points to the Christian one. None. There have been thousands of religions over the course of our existence. The chance that Christianity is the one is slim to none.
Matter doesn't have to come from nothing. Matter could have always existed. That isn't absurd or farfetched to believe. It makes more sense that matter has always existed than that a god poofed everything into existence over 7 days.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I already knew you weren’t using “facts” from the buybull.
Again, I don’t have an answer for you. Perhaps the posse members that thought they saw JC become a zombie had been smoking some burning bush. Sometimes folks claim to see some weird shit. Even today people think they see ghosts or Bigfoot or little green martians or any number of things they didn’t actually see. I can’t counter every lie, mistaken sighting or hallucination that comes along. Except to say I don’t believe in tall tales and impossibilities.
What lie, mistaken sighting, or hallucination is relevant to biblical prophecy coming true? That makes no sense...
Forget about Jesus and His resurrection and His disciples...I gave you three other (and there are so many more) biblical prophecies that came to fruition hundreds of years later, which are verifiable through historical evidence outside the Bible. You are saying the historical evidence is lie or hallucination? You are not making sense.
Forget about Jesus and His resurrection and His disciples...I gave you three other (and there are so many more) biblical prophecies that came to fruition hundreds of years later, which are verifiable through historical evidence outside the Bible. You are saying the historical evidence is lie or hallucination? You are not making sense.
I think it is a good point about believers and non believers coming from different places. I am a skeptic and require some proof about everything. I subscribe to the theory that the simplest explanation is usually the right one. About UFO's, bigfoot, everything. Most people don't hate the idea of God. I think they just require some sort of scientific proof, and maybe get tired of hearing from some Christians how obvious it is when perhaps to them it isn't.
That is 100% false. I gave Ohio numerous examples of biblical prophecy that came to fruition hundreds of years later, exactly how it was prophesied. Find me another god or religious text that has prophecy coming true...
Matter is defined as physical substance that occupies space. Where did this physical substance come from? How could a physical substance always have existed? That is absurd and makes no sense.
What lie, mistaken sighting, or hallucination is relevant to biblical prophecy coming true? That makes no sense...
Forget about Jesus and His resurrection and His disciples...I gave you three other (and there are so many more) biblical prophecies that came to fruition hundreds of years later, which are verifiable through historical evidence outside the Bible. You are saying the historical evidence is lie or hallucination? You are not making sense.
I would say most atheists (not ppl) hate the idea of God. Just reading this thread verifies that to me.
This thread is filled with “If I were God” and “this is what I require from God” comments. I guess that could be an interesting discussion, but not really relevant to whether God is.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
It seems to me that you’ve latched onto the whole “true prophecy” angle in order to convince yourself that everything in the buybull is factual. So, this big ole book that’s many centuries old, that’s been translated and edited many times got a few things right? That does nothing, in my view, to change the fact that people do not return to life after being dead for 3 days. Snakes do not talk. There was no global flood. There was no virgin birth. JC did not walk on liquid water. The sun did not stand still in the sky. That is all BS. All lies. All fairy tales. So many lies and fairy tales that I’m convinced everything in the buybull is nonsense. And I’m not buying the bull.
Three true prophecies. Awesome!
Hundreds of lies. Not awesome!
“Human morality” is subject to change, whether or not it has “evolved.”
I don’t know what you mean by the NT being “kinder and gentler” than the OT. It certainly is not “crystal clear,” as I can only speculate as to your meaning.
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