POLL: Is there a God ??

[SDC888]

Still waiting on the evidence.

It's everywhere and in everything. You (general) have this mistaken notion that science disproves Him evidentially. It doesn't.

Einstein himself thought only a fool would think otherwise, that there wasn't a great mind behind "his" equations. He didn't come to knowledge of Christ, though, at least not publicly.

He thought the "idea" that God was personal to be naive, which is incidentally what I used to believe before I came to know Him. That these ideas were just fanciful, to help people cope with the realities of existence and to provide societal structure.

 

[christophero]

I think it would be kind of sad to not have marriage or kids or friends. Sounds like all the things that are worthwhile in this life are taken away, at least tangible relationships. So are you just singing hymns for all eternity?

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

We typically see depictions of Jesus as a tall, slender white guy. Obviously, because the renaissance artists that painted pictures of him had to use male models of their time and location. But isn’t it more likely that Jesus was kinda short? Like 5 foot 3? 5 foot 5, tops! That’s about the average height of men 2,000 years ago. And definitely had dark skin, brown eyes and black wiry hair like others from the Middle East. Not the long flowing locks of beautiful hair we see in paintings. Probably kinda dirty and smelly since they likely only bathed in a river once a month. Could have even been covered in sores. Absolutely had rotten and missing teeth since there was no dental care to speak of.

Too bad we can’t get a more accurate painting of Jesus, and lose all the inaccurate depictions we’ve grown accustomed to.

 

[cole854]

Too bad we can’t get a more accurate painting of Jesus, and lose all the inaccurate depictions we’ve grown accustomed to.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Nah, that dude’s too old. JC was 33 when he was executed, right? Skin tone is likely close. But he needs to be younger and shorter.

 

[megablue]

We typically see depictions of Jesus as a tall, slender white guy. Obviously, because the renaissance artists that painted pictures of him had to use male models of their time and location. But isn’t it more likely that Jesus was kinda short? Like 5 foot 3? 5 foot 5, tops! That’s about the average height of men 2,000 years ago. And definitely had dark skin, brown eyes and black wiry hair like others from the Middle East. Not the long flowing locks of beautiful hair we see in paintings. Probably kinda dirty and smelly since they likely only bathed in a river once a month. Could have even been covered in sores. Absolutely had rotten and missing teeth since there was no dental care to speak of.

Too bad we can’t get a more accurate painting of Jesus, and lose all the inaccurate depictions we’ve grown accustomed to.

Here is a current depiction … fwiw !!

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I bet this one is about right…

 

[megablue]

I bet this one is about right…

I agree that he would probably have looked something like this picture, given the climate and amount of sunshine in the country. Prolonged exposure to sun darkens skin and complexion, as everyone knows.

"Israel, a small country in western Asia, facing the Mediterranean to the west and the Red Sea to the south, has a Mediterranean climate on the west coast, temperate in the hills of the interior, and desert in the flat areas of the east and the south. The climate in Israel is characterized by hot, sunny summers and by a long period of sunshine, with clear skies from May to September. The rains (where they occur) are concentrated from November to March." https://www.climatestotravel.com/climate/israel

As a side note, Jews in the homeland are at increased risk of skin cancer because of Israel's abundant sunshine. Of course, the same increased risk applies to people throughout the Middle East. It is not just Israel with high rates of skin cancer. Much research is being done on the problem ... understandably.

The 3 cancers Jews need to worry about most — and how to reduce the risks

Since Ashkenazis have a genetic predisposition to several forms of the disease, doctors recommend preventative measures and screening for early detection

www.timesofisrael.com

 

[christophero]

So he looks like Colin Kapernick.

 

[megablue]

So he looks like Colin Kapernick.

I can definitely see that … along with a little bit of Enes Kanter.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

So he looks like Colin Kapernick.

Yes. Only shorter. Don’t forget, he would have been very short.

 

[christophero]

Sounds like he never had the makings of a varsity athlete.

 

[megablue]

Sounds like he never had the makings of a varsity athlete.

Soccer, most probably.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Soccer, most probably.

He would have made a good jockey. Or perhaps a gymnast.

But the perfect sport for his stature and abilities would have been surfing. He wouldn’t even need a board.

 

[cole854]

He would have made a good jockey. Or perhaps a gymnast.

But the perfect sport for his stature and abilities would have been surfing. He wouldn’t even need a board.

If these comments define your purpose here....move on.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

If these comments define your purpose here....move on.

Trying to insert more historical accuracy. Folks earlier in this thread seemed giddy to find that specific locations described in the New Testament were located and proved to be real places. And again when articles showed that some historians agreed that JC was a real person, not a fictional character. If he was real, he had a certain look. And it could not have been this…

 

[phunterd]

Regardless if you’re a believer or not, the behavior of some posters in this thread is sad. I hope most can agree with that.

 

[mcnicKY91]

Trying to insert more historical accuracy. Folks earlier in this thread seemed giddy to find that specific locations described in the New Testament were located and proved to be real places. And again when articles showed that some historians agreed that JC was a real person, not a fictional character. If he was real, he had a certain look. And it could not have been this…

You do realize, and it has been pointed out in this thread, that Jesus' existence has been accepted by virtually all historical scholars, and any scholars who have attempted to deny his existence have been consistently rejected?

Maybe you do accept that Jesus existed...but if you don't, you lose a lot of credibility.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

You do realize, and it has been pointed out in this thread, that Jesus' existence has been accepted by virtually all historical scholars, and any scholars who have attempted to deny his existence have been consistently rejected?

Maybe you do accept that Jesus existed...but if you don't, you lose a lot of credibility.

I will accept that he may have been a real person. Will you accept that he would have been a short jewish person of color with bad teeth, not the tall white guy with perfect complexion and long flowing hair like he is depicted in renaissance paintings?

 

[Ron Mehico]

I will accept that he may have been a real person. Will you accept that he would have been a short jewish person of color with bad teeth, not the tall white guy with perfect complexion and long flowing hair like he is depicted in renaissance paintings?

The part of the world Jesus was from was not a homogenous race of people that all looked the same. That area of the world was ruled by the Roman Empire for thousands of years and has a fairly diverse population looks wise.

 

[mcnicKY91]

I will accept that he may have been a real person. Will you accept that he would have been a short jewish person of color with bad teeth, not the tall white guy with perfect complexion and long flowing hair like he is depicted in renaissance paintings?

Of course he looked nothing like the painting you posted. Considering the context and region in which he was born, he maybe would have had darker skin. Maybe he had lighter skin. I have no idea what his height or dental hygiene was. Don't care about that to be honest.

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

Of course he looked nothing like the painting you posted. Considering the context and region in which he was born, he maybe would have had darker skin. Maybe he had lighter skin. I have no idea what his height or dental hygiene was. Don't care about that to be honest.

It’s an interesting topic though, don’t you think? I mean, for some reason the depiction of him being tall and slender and white seems to be the accepted vision we tend to have of him. But it seems to me that just can’t be accurate.

Which makes me wonder, if we had an accepted accurate depiction of his likely appearance, would feelings about him be the same? Probably wouldn’t change anything! He’d still be widely accepted as a savior throughout the Bible Belt.

 

[MatteoV25]

Soccer, most probably.

Jesus would've looked like Mo Salah

 

[mcnicKY91]

It’s an interesting topic though, don’t you think? I mean, for some reason the depiction of him being tall and slender and white seems to be the accepted vision we tend to have of him. But it seems to me that just can’t be accurate.

Which makes me wonder, if we had an accepted accurate depiction of his likely appearance, would feelings about him be the same? Probably wouldn’t change anything! He’d still be widely accepted as a savior throughout the Bible Belt.

I can most definitely appreciate your interest on the topic. Speaking for myself, other than assuming Jesus was most likely of slightly darker/olive skinned color, never have given it much thought.

I do find it funny that so many of these paintings retroactively paint Jesus (no pun intended) as an angelic being, or others as frail and weak. According to the the Bible, Jesus was obviously neither. He would have needed tremendous stamina and fitness to conduct his ministry, as he was all over the place.

 

[christophero]

he had to do all that walking in sandals too. I walked 3 miles in Nikes and I'm sore.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

It's everywhere and in everything. You (general) have this mistaken notion that science disproves Him evidentially. It doesn't.

Einstein himself thought only a fool would think otherwise, that there wasn't a great mind behind "his" equations. He didn't come to knowledge of Christ, though, at least not publicly.

He thought the "idea" that God was personal to be naive, which is incidentally what I used to believe before I came to know Him. That these ideas were just fanciful, to help people cope with the realities of existence and to provide societal structure.

Actually, when I spend more than a few minutes in close examination, it becomes more and more evident that there if there is a God, this entity lies far outside our human understanding. My best guess is that Einstein thought more or less the same thing, as well-certainly not comparing myself to him in any way.

As I look at our world both physically and through the lens of morality, things appear as if they evolved over time, as opposed to being created in their entirety by a magical and perfect entity. As I get older, I'm actually aware that I'm on borrowed time. Humans, just like every other biological organism, are created from some type of seed, they develop, they are born, they develop more they reproduce, and after their reproduction cycle is finished, they begin deteriorating and they cease to exist-just like every other biological organism under the sun. Did a God redesign the whole system of nature just because Adam and Eve sinned-a sin he knew they were going to commit as he created them? Come on, now. In your heart of hearts, does that sound like the truth or does it sound like an ancient fable designed to explain our creation and our lack of morality.

Speaking of morality, it appears to me that our moral natures evolve as well. Generally speaking, we seem to be more morally aware than the ancient Sumerians, the ancient Hebrews, the Romans, the Spanish inquisitors, the Priests and Kings that presided over us during the Middle Ages, the Vikings and so on. Not to be political, but it appears that we are more morally aware than our ancestors who kidnapped and enslaved generations of Africans. That moral awareness, seems to come from innate consciousness and empathy, rather than directed by an all powerful being. In fact, the Abrahamic God appears to endorse practices we no longer allow today In todays world. Our morality seems to have evolved past the Bible that endorsed Slavery and blood magic while condemning divorce and homosexuality .

 

[christophero]

Well said.

 

[SDC888]

Actually, when I spend more than a few minutes in close examination, it becomes more and more evident that there if there is a God, this entity lies far outside our human understanding. My best guess is that Einstein thought more or less the same thing, as well-certainly not comparing myself to him in any way.

As I look at our world both physically and through the lens of morality, things appear as if they evolved over time, as opposed to being created in their entirety by a magical and perfect entity. As I get older, I'm actually aware that I'm on borrowed time. Humans, just like every other biological organism, are created from some type of seed, they develop, they are born, they develop more they reproduce, and after their reproduction cycle is finished, they begin deteriorating and they cease to exist-just like every other biological organism under the sun. Did a God redesign the whole system of nature just because Adam and Eve sinned-a sin he knew they were going to commit as he created them? Come on, now. In your heart of hearts, does that sound like the truth or does it sound like an ancient fable designed to explain our creation and our lack of morality.

Speaking of morality, it appears to me that our moral natures evolve as well. Generally speaking, we seem to be more morally aware than the ancient Sumerians, the ancient Hebrews, the Romans, the Spanish inquisitors, the Priests and Kings that presided over us during the Middle Ages, the Vikings and so on. Not to be political, but it appears that we are more morally aware than our ancestors who kidnapped and enslaved generations of Africans. That moral awareness, seems to come from innate consciousness and empathy, rather than directed by an all powerful being. In fact, the Abrahamic God appears to endorse practices we no longer allow today In todays world. Our morality seems to have evolved past the Bible that endorsed Slavery and blood magic while condemning divorce and homosexuality .

Einstein believed in an impersonal God (the God of Spinoza), that the evidence for his reality (logical necessity as I put it) was overwheleming, but he did not believe that He was involved or "cared" about the person as an individual.

The atheist "morality" and worldview you've come to accept is indeed the outgrowth of the Christian society it evolved from, resultant of a cultural milieu that posited the universe was intelligible and could be understood through reason. You've "reasoned" that He was unnecessary and that "your" morality is superior. That was inevitable.

In my heart of hearts, I know Christ was who He said He was. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one knows God except through Him. Your innate conscious was put there by Him, and what society values as moral today, will be immoral tomorrow, and/or vice versa,

 

[thebluestripes]

someone once said that the most important question to answer is whether God is or isn't, then live your life accordingly.

 

[megablue]

He would have made a good jockey. Or perhaps a gymnast.

But the perfect sport for his stature and abilities would have been surfing. He wouldn’t even need a board.

Jesus, himself, would chuckle at that and probably fist-bump ... !!

 

[MidseasonTweak]

Einstein believed in an impersonal God (the God of Spinoza), that the evidence for his reality (logical necessity as I put it) was overwheleming, but he did not believe that He was involved or "cared" about the person as an individual.

The atheist "morality" and worldview you've come to accept is indeed the outgrowth of the Christian society it evolved from, resultant of a cultural milieu that posited the universe was intelligible and could be understood through reason. You've "reasoned" that He was unnecessary and that "your" morality is superior. That was inevitable.

In my heart of hearts, I know Christ was who He said He was. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and no one knows God except through Him. Your innate conscious was put there by Him, and what society values as moral today, will be immoral tomorrow, and/or vice versa,

What evidence do you have that our morality came from Christianity.

 

[roguemocha]

I’ll never understand why other people will care if others have “faith”. I’ve said this multiple times, why do you care? It’s not like the crusades are going on.

 

[christophero]

Because it's the poll question?

 

[WildcatfaninOhio]

I’ll never understand why other people will care if others have “faith”. I’ve said this multiple times, why do you care? It’s not like the crusades are going on.

- It creates divisions between people. Faith teaches certainty. You (the generic you, not you, roguemocha necessarily) know in your heart that you are right about your faith, therefore everyone else must be wrong.

- It breeds hate. Terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, 9/11, etc…

- It breeds contempt. Contempt for LGBT and whatever other letters are in there. Contempt for people who want to determine their own reproductive rights.

- It breaks up families if someone decides to leave their faith. People are ostracized, shunned, disowned.

- It creates an atmosphere where women should be submissive in a relationship instead of an equal partner.

- It creeps into politics. A place it has no business. It creeps into public schools. Another place it has no business.

- The faithful financially support some the the world’s most corrupt and abhorrent institutions, which gives them power and inspiration to continue with their crimes.

- Far too many faiths focus on death instead of life. Praying in front of a dead guy statue on a cross. Pretend cannibalism. Can’t wait to die to be reunited with grandma, or to get the promised 72 virgins. You have but one life. Live it and stop waiting for death.

- The teaching of obedience and submission. Why must we be obedient to a cult? “Surrender to a higher power”. “God is my shepherd”. “I am not worthy”. Damaging ideas.

- it makes people reliant on wishes. They are taught to send telepathic messages to somewhere “up there” and see what happens. The correct answer is, nothing will happen as a result of the telepathic message. Action must be taken, not wishes wished.


Those should do for now. I could come up with more, I’m sure, but I must move on with my evening.

 

[UK82]

33 pages. So what's the verdict?

 

[SDC888]

What evidence do you have that our morality came from Christianity.

The foundation of western morality is primacy of the individual, which was a foreign concept until Christ.

It no longer mattered your station in life, what role you played, or whatever other superficial characteristic like whether you were Jew or Greek: you are all equal... you have infinite value as an individual because you are a unique soul made in His image.

This foreign concept later becomes a "self-evident" truth, literally this nation's first sentence.

 

[roguemocha]

- It creates divisions between people. Faith teaches certainty. You (the generic you, not you, roguemocha necessarily) know in your heart that you are right about your faith, therefore everyone else must be wrong.

- It breeds hate. Terrorist attacks, suicide bombings, 9/11, etc…

- It breeds contempt. Contempt for LGBT and whatever other letters are in there. Contempt for people who want to determine their own reproductive rights.

- It breaks up families if someone decides to leave their faith. People are ostracized, shunned, disowned.

- It creates an atmosphere where women should be submissive in a relationship instead of an equal partner.

- It creeps into politics. A place it has no business. It creeps into public schools. Another place it has no business.

- The faithful financially support some the the world’s most corrupt and abhorrent institutions, which gives them power and inspiration to continue with their crimes.

- Far too many faiths focus on death instead of life. Praying in front of a dead guy statue on a cross. Pretend cannibalism. Can’t wait to die to be reunited with grandma, or to get the promised 72 virgins. You have but one life. Live it and stop waiting for death.

- The teaching of obedience and submission. Why must we be obedient to a cult? “Surrender to a higher power”. “God is my shepherd”. “I am not worthy”. Damaging ideas.

- it makes people reliant on wishes. They are taught to send telepathic messages to somewhere “up there” and see what happens. The correct answer is, nothing will happen as a result of the telepathic message. Action must be taken, not wishes wished.


Those should do for now. I could come up with more, I’m sure, but I must move on with my evening.

so do politics and it’s never ending. All those points. Everyone of them.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

The foundation of western morality is primacy of the individual, which was a foreign concept until Christ.

It no longer mattered your station in life, what role you played, or whatever other superficial characteristic like whether you were Jew or Greek: you are all equal... you have infinite value as an individual because you are a unique soul made in His image.

This foreign concept later becomes a "self-evident" truth, literally this nation's first sentence.

Atheist historians realize the truth in these comments.

 

[MadaboutBlue]

The atheist "morality" and worldview you've come to accept is indeed the outgrowth of the Christian society it evolved from, resultant of a cultural milieu that posited the universe was intelligible and could be understood through reason. You've "reasoned" that He was unnecessary and that "your" morality is superior. That was inevitable.

What utter nonsense:

Of course our modern morality flawed as it is, is Superior. It's not even an argument. The Old Testament condones-even encourages the following: Genital mutilation, murder of innocent women and children, blood magic through animal and occasional human sacrifice, including child sacrifice, slavery, kidnapping of others for slavery and rape, and even rape in general (unless you think maybe forcing your sister or daughter to marry her rapist is A-OK).

Of course none of these sound like anything a God would endorse, but they sound exactly what an ancient stone to Bronze Age society would endorse and practice. Out of virgins in your own town? Why just ambush the next town over at the community dance, and kidnap their young girls and rape them-TWO at a time! No need for Tendr on that one. But the truth is that all early Middle Eastern civilizations behaved in much the same way.

So that brings us to the New Testament, which I will agree on the surface is a little kinder gentler. God apparently has a change of heart on the Genital mutilation thing, although he fails to address that through Jesus or himself depending on your view of the Trinity. The end of circumcision comes from Paul and not Jesus. For some unexplained reason, the gentiles he was trying to convert felt cutting off the ends of their Penises was a dealbreaker. God changes his mind on few other things too-he seems to cool on the burnt of offerings of animals and humans, the old dietary laws go out the window, and he goes from endorsing having your fun with virgins to being damned for lust in your heart.

Of course slavery is still fine, and misogyny and racism were very much acceptable. Why? Because those were the prevailing values of the time. Even after the Romans and Mediterranean world became"'Christian" the murdering and raping continued , although it became in the name of Jesus, instead of supporting Mosaic law.

Point is, morality is part of our innate empathy and reason which evolves over time (even Jesus appears to have agreed that we evolve morally), and that TRULY is self evident.


.

 

[SDC888]

What utter nonsense:



.

Hah, ok.... I'll stop there, thanks and not even give you my usual customary skim. I realize this is the internet, but if you can't even maintain some level of decorum nevertheless, then I know all I need to know. I know why you react such, do you? No, it's not because what I typed was nonsensical.

It's not like I don't know "your "atheist argument. I've even read books on it by people like Dawkins. It's a remarkably shallow and weak argument, a serious error; you're welcome to it as classical liberalism, the evolution of our society from its Christian foundation, demands.

Your philosophy pales in comparison to what is only found in the Bible, and that's not incidental. I'm already aware of all your rationalizations and what that produces.