POLITICAL THREAD

[allabouttheUK]

Understood. So fed and state govt's should remove the preferential tax treatment granted to oil & gas industries, as well as the subsidization of the distribution network that supports said industries. I think we're all clear now.

preferential tax treatment...that preferential treatment you speak of has mostly been voided due to federal guidelines mandating costly (but needed) changes in the industry, or suffer severe fines.
All I am saying is the government shouldn't throw money at these green companies and cross their fingers. Do for them what is done for the other energy industries (incentives, tax breaks, etc...) then let the people decide for themselves on the open market.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Oil has no part of this discussion, the amount of oil used in making electricity here is minute. Gas has become a viable option because we've made coal so expensive to use, true story.

I wasn't limiting this particular comment to the electricity market.

 

[wild mandu]

Free Charlie!!!

My reaction if Manson gets released:

 

[Willy4UK]

My reaction if Manson gets released:

 

[Willy4UK]

I'm still laughing at that Manson dance.

 

[Willy4UK]

I wasn't limiting this particular comment to the electricity market.

Mime, is it true that methane is going to be converted to thermo-nuclear fission by 2030? Thus providing us with even cheaper and safer green energy?

 

[Bill Derington]

Disagree completely on "making coal" almost unable to use [sic].

When solar reaches grid parity without tax incentives, which is estimated to be 2020 for about half the country, would you consider the incentives wasted?

Grid parity? Are you saying cost or the same amount of Megawatts on the grid as coal?

Either way it's only because the Govt has forced power producers to either shut down coal units. Or the cost of burning coal is that expensive due to Govt regulations.

Honestly Mime, I don't see it happening in 2020. What will happen is electricity prices will get so high that coal will make a comeback. We're sitting on too much of it for us not to use it.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Mime, is it true that methane is going to be converted to thermo-nuclear fission by 2030? Thus providing us with even cheaper and safer green energy?

oh bullshit!

 

[AustinTXCat]

View embedded media

Obama sure loves helping criminals and terrorists out.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

preferential tax treatment...that preferential treatment you speak of has mostly been voided due to federal guidelines mandating costly (but needed) changes in the industry, or suffer severe fines.

Your issue is that the industry is bearing more of the total economic cost of going concern.

You're also ignoring the additional preferential tax treatment granted to conventional energy sources implemented in conjunction with environmental related federal guidelines, including but not limited to the expansion of incentives for infrastructure development and foreign tax credits.

 

[Willy4UK]

oh bullshit!

Seriously. Hillary was talking about it on MSNBC the other night. She said she wanted it fully running by the time she leaves office in 2028.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Mime, We've had this argument before. In every other facet of life we strive for the most efficient, with the highest return, except for energy production. Which is the one thing that can shutdown everything.

False. That's the goal of the private sector, public health and safety concerns be damned. And it's not just limited to energy production.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Your issue is that the industry is bearing more of the total economic cost of going concern.

You're also ignoring the additional preferential tax treatment granted to conventional energy sources implemented in conjunction with environmental related federal guidelines, including but not limited to the expansion of incentives for infrastructure development and foreign tax credits.

No...I'm just saying that traditional energy industries aren't making out like the used to, not that they are suffering now, but it's much tougher on them today.

My point is that you don't throw the money at a couple of companies like it's a horse race, that does nothing for an industry you want to grow. Instead create incentives to grow the industry and then let the market decide which way to go. There is enough room in this world for solar/gas/coal to co-exist. They could each use some help from the other.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Mime, is it true that methane is going to be converted to thermo-nuclear fission by 2030? Thus providing us with even cheaper and safer green energy?

1000%. pROPably sooner

 

[allabouttheUK]

Seriously. Hillary was talking about it on MSNBC the other night. She said she wanted it fully running by the time she leaves office in 2028.

damnit, Willy....nevermind.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

My point is that you don't throw the money at a couple of companies like it's a horse race, that does nothing for an industry you want to grow. Instead create incentives to grow the industry and then let the market decide which way to go. There is enough room in this world for solar/gas/coal to co-exist. They could each use some help from the other.

You've just described the energy policy of the current administration (excluding 'help from each other'). Not the preference of environmentalists, but this DoE.

 

[Willy4UK]

damnit, Willy....nevermind.

Man, you didn't actually think methane was getting converted to thermo-nuclear fission did you?

 

[allabouttheUK]

You've just described the energy policy of the current administration (excluding 'help from each other'). Not the preference of environmentalists, but this DoE.

The current administration handed over a lot of money to upstart green energy companies...that is defiantly not what I would agree with.

If the rest of it is in line with what I think should be fair and common sense...hey, the DoE get's a thumbs up in my book.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Man, you didn't actually think methane was getting converted to thermo-nuclear fission did you?

No...I saw methane and went for the obscure ozone joke.

I really suck at this.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Grid parity? Are you saying cost or the same amount of Megawatts on the grid as coal?

Either way it's only because the Govt has forced power producers to either shut down coal units. Or the cost of burning coal is that expensive due to Govt regulations.

Honestly Mime, I don't see it happening in 2020. What will happen is electricity prices will get so high that coal will make a comeback. We're sitting on too much of it for us not to use it.

It's already happened in certain markets with early roll outs of RPS and incentives.

And coal has had the support of government subsidization for over a century to get to its current price per MWh.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Is there anything in the country that isn't subsidized? Food, energy...for the love of GOD the government knows how to fck things up.

 

[Supreme Lord Z]

I see Mime is enjoying time with the playthings today. Cute little neanderthals. It's like circle time.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

The current administration handed over a lot of money to upstart green energy companies...that is defiantly not what I would agree with.

And the current administration is then responsible for the net profit of $30B+ on said investments (in the form of loan grants).

 

[Bill Derington]

False. That's the goal of the private sector, public health and safety concerns be damned. And it's not just limited to energy production.

So it's the Govts position to force higher costs on citizens? Which also creates higher costs for employers.
So now our Govt has no only made it possible to ship an item into the country for free, but they have also made it cost more to produce it due to energy costs.

Basically what we've done is move our garbage pile to someone else's yard, but make no mistake, it's still there.

 

[Bill Cosby]

And the current administration is then responsible for the net profit of $30B+ on said investments (in the form of loan grants).

Did you link the wrong article?


.

 

[Bill Derington]

It's already happened in certain markets with early roll outs of RPS and incentives.

And coal has had the support of government subsidization for over a century to get to its current price per MWh.

There's a big difference between parity, and cherry picked parity.

Coal is being offset by gas currently, it isn't solar or wind thats doing it.

 

[Bill Cosby]

I mean don't get me wrong, I think it's great to compare government returns to VC returns - since they both have equal power to write laws and crush competitors with regulations. But it seems like a $30 million return on $34 billion is nothing to write home about.

 

[UPSCat4080]

This maybe rivals Trump's take on the subject as one of the worst comprehensions of the renewables industry, and comprehensive energy markets as a whole, that I've come across. You should really sit this one out since you've already shown us that you don't have the simplest grasp of how wind and solar generate electricity let alone how these sources are integrated into the grid.

And LOL'ing at the statement that 'it's not the governments job to' decrease the reliance of energy sources when extraction and combustion of such sources are continuously proven to, not just present serious health risks but, kill their citizens who have no other options to access non-toxic life sustaining elements.

The "I'm smarter than you even though I offer no details" liberal response. It never gets old.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Did you link the wrong article?


.

Nope, it's right. Talks of the net profit for the grant loans made by this administration.

But the $30B profit needs to be corrected to $30M.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

The "I'm smarter than you even though I offer no details" liberal response. It never gets old.

I am smarter than you with this subject, and I will not my waste time offering details that you won't be able to understand

 

[Supreme Lord Z]

Yeah, that's gonna leave a mark.

It's like watching the teacher savagely dunk in a game of nerf basketball with the kindergartners.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

I mean don't get me wrong, I think it's great to compare government returns to VC returns - since they both have equal power to write laws and crush competitors with regulations. But it seems like a $30 million return on $34 billion is nothing to write home about.

Ain't comparing anything to VC returns, rather showing that the DoE loan program that everyone fusses about is returning a profit. That's without mention of total economic return from the maturation of the industries involved.

 

[UPSCat4080]

Yeah, that's gonna leave a mark.

The only mark it leaves is the same mark that has been left by you, Mime and Moe....that of ignorance at its best. Tax incentives and breaks are not the same as the government throwing millions at a sector that should be left to private investment. Mine throws a BS report of the government actually getting a profit on that deal, but every reputable source has called it for what it was....a failed investment. How about you jerk a report from The Onion on solar energy success...it is just as reliable.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

There's a big difference between parity, and cherry picked parity.

Coal is being offset by gas currently, it isn't solar or wind thats doing it.

What is the difference between parity and cherry picked parity? I'm assuming you mean macro industry vs micro utility region?

Not sure what your second statement is getting at.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Where's that $34 billion come from? And what am I and my grandchildren accruing in interest?


Edit: or is that $34 billion in loan guarantees?

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

The only mark it leaves is the same mark that has been left by you, Mime and Moe....that of ignorance at its best. Tax incentives and breaks are not the same as the government throwing millions at a sector that should be left to private investment. Mine throws a BS report of the government actually getting a profit on that deal, but every reputable source has called it for what it was....a failed investment. How about you jerk a report from The Onion on solar energy success...it is just as reliable.

The extent of current federal subsidies for wind and solar projects are limited to tax incentives (ITC and PTC).

You're bad at this.

 

[Teachable Moe]

Surely you can agree that the government (local/state/federal) should be responsible for transportation as it's vital to the countries infrastructure.

The government should not overstep in matters of personal choice in such things as energy. Throwing money at failing green companies was a bad investment and something that shouldn't have been done, or at least done differently.

Nobody can predict the future. Train companies failed, too. As far as personal choice for energy, which choices have been denied you?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Never such a thing as too much Statler & Waldorf.

Can't recall if I talked about this. Got it from a CPA friend, who was looking at the 2014 tax return of the Clinton Foundation. I can't get the formatting to work (da Becca!), but the point is less than 3% of what was taken in went out as a grant (which is, you know, the whole point of a foundation). Almost $35 million in comp, and another $12 million in boon doggles.....There is a really easy story to write here, but that would require a working media.


"Total Revenue $177,804,612

Grants and similar amounts paid $5,160,385 (2.90% of revenues)

Salaries, other compensation, employee benefits $34,838,106 19.60%

Conferences, conventions & meetings $12,469,045 7.00%

Losses and Other expenses $13,733,803 7.70%

Total Expenses $91,281,145 51.30%

Increase in Net Assets 2013 - 2014 $85,171,891 47.90%

Net Assets or fund balances 12.31.2014 $332,471,349"

Isn't reasonable compensation of officers also a 501c3 restriction? This doesn't seem reasonable by any stretch

 

[Supreme Lord Z]

The 400 million dollars story is exactly what I called for this morning. It can save Trump and keep him on the ticket. Great timing. A real lifeline to preserve our landslide.

 

[Mime-Is-Money]

Where's that $34 billion come from? And what am I and my grandchildren accruing in interest?


Edit: or is that $34 billion in loan guarantees?

$30M net return through 2014 from $34B of committed debt investment (~ $20B contributed to date). The program is expected a comprehensive RoR of around 12% per GTM who cites Bloomberg.com. Trying to find that original Bloomberg.com article.