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POLITICAL THREAD

How will they rule ??!

  • YES - Qualified

    Votes: 41 82.0%
  • NO - Disqualified

    Votes: 9 18.0%

  • Total voters
    50
  • Poll closed .
There’s a line between caring for the poor and enabling irresponsible behavior of the poor. Just as with the non poors.

I don’t want to pay for McDonalds, multiple flat screen TVs, cable and health care for Betty Sue and her 6 bastard children.
 
Guess Trump didn't think his new moves were playing well. Had to throw in some threats to feel big. If you slaughter 100s of thousands we will make you pay cash! Unmatched wisdom!



Sooooo Turkey slaughters 100s thousands in the Middle East and pays us to let them do it, and that’s a bad thing?

Would you rather we slaughter the hundreds of thousands then pay to rebuild the nation that hates us?
 
We just have two fundamentally different views on the world that can’t be reconciled.

I feel the government should only be involved as a safety net. If you’re irresponsible and choose to buy a new Lexus you can’t afford rather than contributing to retirement or an HSA, that’s on you.

Health care is not a right. Your rights end the minute they require someone else to do something against their will. Free speech. The right to keep and bear arms. The right of protection against unlawful searches and seizures. Etc. Not the right to force someone to provide a service to you, healthcare or otherwise.

If we moved to an individual based health insurance system, it would follow individual compensation would increase by the amount employers are already paying for that employees health insurance. It’s currently deductible in the sense that it’s not included in employee comp. point being the employee will now have freedom and choice to shop around, and the net tax impact is zero.

The whole point would be to transition to a system where people pay for maintenance and have catastrophic policies.

I have zero faith in our federal government. I think I asked before, but please point me in the direction of the federal government operating in an industry and doing it better and cheaper than the market. Healthcare will be no different. Costs will go up. Quality will fall.

And yes, if my wife is diagnosed with cancer and I can read informed reviews of treatments and costs online, I sure as shit am shopping around. I’d much prefer we make an informed decision rather than being beholden to a network or certain providers and covered treatments.
Bill, if you buy that Lexus and then can't afford it they take it away from you and your credit report will take a hit and you'll likely be unable to go back to that dealer and buy another. When you have a heart attack they call an ambulance...rush you to the hospital...you may well incur 3, 4, 5x the value of that Lexus before all is said and done. If you can't pay...if you have assets they may press you into bankruptcy...if you don't the provider is SOL. Your credit report may well take a hit but if next week the same thing happens... the ambulance will be called, you'll receive the best medical care they can deliver and again the providers may well be out $100K-$200K in uncollectable medical services.

You can say it isn't a right but let me know when you expect providers to require proof of payment before rendering services...especially for emergency procedures.

I call bullshit on your shopping around for your wife's cancer treatments. I can hear it now... sorry dear, I know that Dr. Smith is considered the best...but Dr Jones is doing 2 for 1 chemo treatments this month so we're going to Dr. Jones!

And here's the major reason you're not shopping... regardless of your deductible, you're going to hit it, if you're going to hit it then you want the best don't you? My wife had a relatively "easy" cancer treatment and it billed out at about $280K. The year prior she had a torn labrum...$40K. The year after had her thyroid removed...a side effect from the radiation treatments...$85K. My HSA plan has a $5K deductible...hit it, hit it, hit it.
 
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What you say is sensible, I have no problem with every person in the US having health insurance. We cannot afford it. IMO, we already pay too much to the gov in the form of taxes. Secondly, IMO, it's not the role of gov to provide for healthcare.

Look what happened when we were slammed with o'care. Let me guess: You'd say, "More people were insured due to o'care". You may be right, but I can tell you my insurance costs quadrupled and continue to rise.

Again, we cannot afford universal health care. Most importantly, again, IT"S NOT THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT TO PROVIDE HEALTHCARE.

All that aside, I do believe I have a moral obligation to care for the poor....but it's not the role of gov to hold me accountable for that.
90% of people are insured and the uninsured get treatment by going to the ER..and we pay for it.
The average family pays $20K/yr in HC insurance...we spend on average $12K/yr per capita...you are already paying those taxes...it's just who receives the money.
 
90% of people are insured and the uninsured get treatment by going to the ER..and we pay for it.
The average family pays $20K/yr in HC insurance...we spend on average $12K/yr per capita...you are already paying those taxes...it's just who receives the money.
You're right re: about paying taxes and it being a matter of who receives the money. I don't want to be argumentative, just present my views. My family and I have always been reluctant to seek medical treatment. For colds, minor illnesses, etc.., we've just stuck it out. Yet, in my work, I've seen people that flock to ER's with things like headaches. I've even encountered people seeking treatment in mental health units because, "I just want to get out of that damned house"....It's no big deal to them the costs that others pay.

Imagine the spike in those seeking services IF "the government is going to pay for it". Heck, if my taxes are (wrongfully) raised to provide such care, I'm going to the freaking ER if I have a hangnail.

I'm for zero increase in taxes ( for any individual or group)except for three reasons:
1. Pay off the nat debt
2. Solidify the SS system to meet its obligations (I will NEVER be able to draw ss)
3. Provide quality healthcare and a pension for veterans.

You cannot provide universal care on what the gov currently takes in.
 
Bill, if you buy that Lexus and then can't afford it they take it away from you and your credit report will take a hit and you'll likely be unable to go back to that dealer and buy another. When you have a heart attack they call an ambulance...rush you to the hospital...you may well incur 3, 4, 5x the value of that Lexus before all is said and done. If you can't pay...if you have assets they may press you into bankruptcy...if you don't the provider is SOL. Your credit report may well take a hit but if next week the same thing happens... the ambulance will be called, you'll receive the best medical care they can deliver and again the providers may well be out $100K-$200K in uncollectable medical services.

You can say it isn't a right but let me know when you expect providers to require proof of payment before rendering services...especially for emergency procedures.

I call bullshit on your shopping around for your wife's cancer treatments. I can hear it now... sorry dear, I know that Dr. Smith is considered the best...but Dr Jones is doing 2 for 1 chemo treatments this month so we're going to Dr. Jones!

And here's the major reason you're not shopping... regardless of your deductible, you're going to hit it, if you're going to hit it then you want the best don't you? My wife had a relatively "easy" cancer treatment and it billed out at about $280K. The year prior she had a torn labrum...$40K. The year after had her thyroid removed...a side effect from the radiation treatments...$85K. My HSA plan has a $5K deductible...hit it, hit it, hit it.

It sucks. I would do the same as you. Yet that still does not answer the question: How do we afford it. Perhaps the treatment for cancer should not be $280K. I'd agree. Radation $85K? A rip-off. But universal care is not the answer.
We'd have to chip in 30% more of our income to pay for it. Then there's the other minor issue: With everyone getting treatment, there will be a very long wait list. (I have acquaintances that live in Canada and it's a reality there).

IMO, there is a solution, but people don't want to hear it and certainly won't accept it. I can assure you, it does not involve the government.
 
With the US no longer cock blocking Erdogan 1 of 2 things will happen. 1) He will slaughter the Kurds. 2) The Kurds will broker a deal with Assad and start a new war. On top of the 100k+ people sitting in prison camps run by the Kurds which is mostly the wives and kids of dead ISIS fighters. Turkey also is going to shove 2million refugees in the middle as cannon fodder. So your talking 150k+ fatalities in a pretty short time frame, aka a genocide. I'm not saying its a terrible idea, let the ME idiots wipe each other out. But we can acknowledge that we are purposely letting this happen. Lindsey AssPirate Graham was raging this morning against it so i have to assume its at least slightly a good idea.
Would you please stop talking out of both sides of your mouth? You support Trump's decision, but oppose any consequences (which you are sure to blame Trump for). What a huge, raging vagina you are.
 
Bill, if you buy that Lexus and then can't afford it they take it away from you and your credit report will take a hit and you'll likely be unable to go back to that dealer and buy another. When you have a heart attack they call an ambulance...rush you to the hospital...you may well incur 3, 4, 5x the value of that Lexus before all is said and done. If you can't pay...if you have assets they may press you into bankruptcy...if you don't the provider is SOL. Your credit report may well take a hit but if next week the same thing happens... the ambulance will be called, you'll receive the best medical care they can deliver and again the providers may well be out $100K-$200K in uncollectable medical services.

You can say it isn't a right but let me know when you expect providers to require proof of payment before rendering services...especially for emergency procedures.

I call bullshit on your shopping around for your wife's cancer treatments. I can hear it now... sorry dear, I know that Dr. Smith is considered the best...but Dr Jones is doing 2 for 1 chemo treatments this month so we're going to Dr. Jones!

And here's the major reason you're not shopping... regardless of your deductible, you're going to hit it, if you're going to hit it then you want the best don't you? My wife had a relatively "easy" cancer treatment and it billed out at about $280K. The year prior she had a torn labrum...$40K. The year after had her thyroid removed...a side effect from the radiation treatments...$85K. My HSA plan has a $5K deductible...hit it, hit it, hit it.


You completely missed the point on the Lexus. If you choose to pay for luxury items, rather than essentials like health care and retirement, I have no sympathy for you. It’s a complete nonstarter. Too many people in this country debt finance a lifestyle because people like you think others should be immune from the consequences of their irresponsible choices.

It’s not a right. Just because hospitals will provide care without requiring proof of payment in emergency situations, that doesn’t make it a right.

Again, the point sailed over your head. We absolutely shopped around for things not covered by insurance. Fertility. Laser eye surgery. If my wife wants some new tits, we’ll shop around based on price and quality. You’d be a fool to not go with the highest quality doctor you can afford, rather than relying on someone because they’re in your network, whether that’s chemo or another surgery.


Furthermore, we’re trying to drive down the cost of healthcare. Saying, “no one is going to shop around because I had a 250k medical bill,” is quite frankly retarded. I’ve never hit my deductible. If I needed an elective surgery, covered by insurance or not, I’d seek out the highest quality at a price I could afford.
 
I love it when people who clearly have "blockers and blinders" fitted to themselves accuse others of the same.

I guess in the end it comes down to if you believe that healthcare should be a basic human right or a source of profiteering.
You don't know the answers but you know what the answers are not...[eyeroll]. It works in every other country in which it is used but it can't work here...sure dude. Tell me who the ideologue is here.

We have a system that is incentivized to keep you in the system. To keep you dependent upon its services, to keep you dependent upon its drugs. A system so expensive that only the very top of the economic spectrum could ever afford it without the socialized network that is healthcare insurance.

Yes, research would be slowed...so we won't know what we don't know. That's a small price to pay.

I don't necessarily want healthcare professionals who are motivated by how much can they make. Doctors have always been well paid. There is never enough. The man who earns $250K wants to earn $500K. If they earn $500K they want $750K...$1M...they always want more and they earn more by ordering more tests, scheduling more appointments...few are positioned to question their judgment.

Foreign doctors that come to the US are not necessarily that nation's best and brightest. The MD that finished last in his class can immigrate here just as easily as the MD who finished first. We see very few coming here from those European nations...they come from Pakistan, India, the Caribbean, Philippines and Mexico. Those 5 nations (yes i know the Caribbean isn't a nation) account for 60% of all foreign docs in the US. A large percentage of the remaining come from other middle eastern countries. Foreign docs make up 30% of all docs in the US... 10% in Germany... 27% in Sweden... 30% in the UK...so remind me how we are so different?

Coming from 3rd world countries it doesn't take much
I'm a stickler for the misuse of terms, so forgive me for my one comment. Healthcare can never be a basic human right. A right is something you can do yourself and does not rely of the efforts of others. Healthcare can be privilege that is made available to all. The end result may be similar, but the term right should never be used in the context of a service or product provided by a third party. Fundamentally, a person does not have the right to the labor of someone else.
 
It sucks. I would do the same as you. Yet that still does not answer the question: How do we afford it. Perhaps the treatment for cancer should not be $280K. I'd agree. Radation $85K? A rip-off. But universal care is not the answer.
We'd have to chip in 30% more of our income to pay for it. Then there's the other minor issue: With everyone getting treatment, there will be a very long wait list. (I have acquaintances that live in Canada and it's a reality there).

IMO, there is a solution, but people don't want to hear it and certainly won't accept it. I can assure you, it does not involve the government.
I'd like to hear your solution please.
 
I prefer Bernie.....

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Again, I’ll ask fuzz, can you name one single industry where the federal government has been significantly involved and made things better?

College education/student loans? Requiring banks to lend to subprime borrowers? Healthcare/health insurance?
 
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Guess Trump didn't think his new moves were playing well. Had to throw in some threats to feel big. If you slaughter 100s of thousands we will make you pay cash! Unmatched wisdom!


As I have stated strongly before, and just to reiterate, if Turkey does anything that I, in my great and unmatched wisdom, consider to be off limits, I will totally destroy and obliterate the Economy of Turkey (I’ve done before!). They must, with Europe and others, watch over...

"Trump is stingy with treasure and blood. He's willing to sanction and fight trade wars to avoid real wars. He's sending in accountants instead of America's sons and daughters. He's an orange faced Gandhi."
 
With the US no longer cock blocking Erdogan 1 of 2 things will happen. 1) He will slaughter the Kurds. 2) The Kurds will broker a deal with Assad and start a new war. On top of the 100k+ people sitting in prison camps run by the Kurds which is mostly the wives and kids of dead ISIS fighters. Turkey also is going to shove 2million refugees in the middle as cannon fodder. So your talking 150k+ fatalities in a pretty short time frame, aka a genocide. I'm not saying its a terrible idea, let the ME idiots wipe each other out. But we can acknowledge that we are purposely letting this happen. Lindsey AssPirate Graham was raging this morning against it so i have to assume its at least slightly a good idea.


Guess Trump didn't think his new moves were playing well. Had to throw in some threats to feel big. If you slaughter 100s of thousands we will make you pay cash! Unmatched wisdom!


This is exactly the message Trump is sending to the war mongers and our friends in Europe so I'll relay it to you too because it seems appropriate.

Since you seem so passionate about the subject, when will you be volunteering to go to Syria? Those who want war with a fellow NATO member and nominal ally Turkey can always grab a rifle and go fight. Nothing is stopping you. Instead of dictating with other people's skin in the game, put some of your own on the line for a change.
 
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There’s a line between caring for the poor and enabling irresponsible behavior of the poor. Just as with the non poors.

I don’t want to pay for McDonalds, multiple flat screen TVs, cable and health care for Betty Sue and her 6 bastard children.
You forgot to include their most current smartphone. Wife is in the Healthcare industry and the # of stories she has of a patients who are poor and/or do not have healthcare but have the latest $1000+ phone would piss you off. Most are on Medicaid and every other government assistance program and they have absolutely no shame asking nurses or doctors for money so they can buy stuff from the vending machines or pay for their $5 prescriptions all the while being absolutely impossible to deal with because of their sense of entitlement.
 
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The Lexus example is clear illustration of how blinded by ideology these people are... anyone else knew exactly what you meant by that.

It's not just that they don't know what they don't know, it's that they refuse to know because were they to they'd see just how bad their argument is.

Listen leftists, there is not a single social democrat communist justification you have that I cannot summarily refute, even your quasi moral ones like "I guess it comes down to whether you think healthcare should be a right or profiteering"

The best doctors in the world come here, no not every single one on the planet, in order to be the best in the career and maybe in their research, which you admit would have to be cut, they figure out the cure to some disease and cure millions globally.

So, I guess it comes down to you and a handful of others thinking your bankruptcy matters more than the life and suffering of millions of people.

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Are these people really this ignorant or is it because they'll take any stance opposite of Trump?

Read that out loud.

"Another instance of Trump overriding the people meant to run US policy."

It's madness.

 
Personally, I do agree that there are plenty of bad teachers (just like their are bad doctors, lawyers, nurses, accountants, etc.) and the union does protect them. That is something that needs to be addressed. If it was, I don't think that will magically increase the pay of the remaining teachers. You get rid of the worthless ones and you still have to hire others to take their place. There isn't a ton of cost savings there. Districts won't magically begin to pay more; look at private schools. Many private schools pay significantly less than public schools because they are non-union and they are able to.

I think that's a pretty reasonable position and very possible. One reason I believe the private schools pay lower but still have positions filled is the very thing that drives teachers from public classrooms - they have less paperwork, more time to teach, and less discipline issues.

I do agree in the free market that change would likely take a cycle to correct. And there is a need for an employer (here the state) to increase wages to attract better candidates. In fact I can totally get on board with THAT argument. Just not the nebulous "they deserve more" position.

So in the end I think it will take a multifaceted approach to solving our education issues. Money, return of teacher control (in both content, paperwork, and discipline), and removal of unions or at least the notion of tenure as a seal of invincibility
 
I'd like to hear your solution please.

You asked.

I believe God gave us a plan by which the needs of people would be met. Obviously, this implies everyone would be part of a church.

I've read statistics that estimate the church would have between 200-$400 Billion annually to use on social programs if just those who call themselves Christians would tithe (10% of gross income). This is based on the estimate that only about 20% Americans consider themselves Christian.

If every American belonged to a faith based organization that used money to meet needs of people as the church is designed to do, that would mean there would be somewhere between $1-2 Trillion per year.

With current governmental social programs, there is no accountability. With the plan I've shared, people receiving assistance from these organizations would be held accountable by the people members of the organization.

Welfare the same. The church could provide housing and food. Recipients would be expected to participate in the life of the organization as well as work to meet needs of others (elderly, disabled, childcare, etc..)

I don't have a problem with the gov providing for things it should provide: defense, highways, infrastructure. The gov should not be meddling in issues that enter the realm of moral obligation.

Personally, I wish there was a plan by which I was required to pay my share of the above mentioned governmental costs (defense,etc...) but then any money I give to care for people, I should be given a dollar for dollar tax credit.
 
I think that's a pretty reasonable position and very possible. One reason I believe the private schools pay lower but still have positions filled is the very thing that drives teachers from public classrooms - they have less paperwork, more time to teach, and less discipline issues.

I do agree in the free market that change would likely take a cycle to correct. And there is a need for an employer (here the state) to increase wages to attract better candidates. In fact I can totally get on board with THAT argument. Just not the nebulous "they deserve more" position.

So in the end I think it will take a multifaceted approach to solving our education issues. Money, return of teacher control (in both content, paperwork, and discipline), and removal of unions or at least the notion of tenure as a seal of invincibility

I always told my staff that any teacher that said he/she would work harder if they were paid more should be fired on the spot...and you can fire a tenured teacher if you do your homework.
As for private schools: I know a few private school teachers that are masters of their crafts. However, generally speaking, public schools attract better teachers simply because of the pay and benefits. When I was in the business, I've lured teachers from the private schools simply by using pay/retirement as enticements.

Return of teacher control is more difficult than you'd think. The problem lies with parents. If parents are not holding kids accountable and supporting the schools, you're going to have a problem.
IMO, one solution is to identify trouble making kids and require them to attend school from 3:00 until 9:30 pm. Parents would whine about daycare, etc.... If they want their kids to attend school normal hours, get them straightened out.

and...It costs no more than having them in school during the normal school day.
 
Now we are starting to understand why Perry and Ghouliani are so invested in this Ukraine bs. they were positioning all their buddies to make tons of money off the power struggle. Get all the energy company big wigs cleaned out, replace with their people, profit. Pretty typical political money grabs. Trump was also quick to throw Perry under the bus.

”Not a lot of people know this but, I didn’t even want to make the call,” Trump said. “The only reason I made the call was because Rick asked me to. Something about an LNG [liquefied natural gas] plant.”

Thats a lot different explanation then the original. I thought he wanted the call really bad to weed out corruption! and of course none of that is in the "transcript". and you sheep eat it up.
False, more lies to fire your hopes. Keep on keeping on loser.
 
Trump just green lit a mass genocide in Syria. It is a lose lose situation. The Kurds are the reason we were able to wipe out ISIS and are currently managing 100k strong prison camp. But Turkey is an important "ally" for asserting power in the ME and staging for our nukes. I'm not against just getting the F out but Trump has to acknowledge he just allowed the slaughter of the people we have been training, arming, fighting with. Hopefully we are getting something from Erdogan for closing our eyes and letting it happen. Just another reason to completely abandon the ME, its a shit show.
False.
 
We're really pulling out of the middle East. Never thought I'd see the day. What an incredible move. I love the part of his tweet where he says let them sort it out.

Now of course all the usual suspects (msm and blue checks) are ripping out their beards screaming about leaving a war that they spent years blasting us for being in.
Platnidumb and the left have been asking for it for years (which I don't disagree with) but now he is blaming Trump for genocide. Hey Plat! Guns don't kill people, people kill people. Blame those who will do the killing.
 
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newer generations understand that Boomers were ****ing idiots for creating and living off of a debt economy. Time to get back to only spending what you can actually afford.
False, millennials want to spend their parents money or taxpayers and not their own. You are wrong again.
 
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