POLITICAL THREAD

[BigBlueSean]

And I'm not a full supporter of Bernie. I see the cons with him just as much as any other candidates do... At least someone has some self awareness of what issues this country faces and calls out special interest groups and private businesses that back these politicians a D keep a strangle hold on this country due to what will pad their pockets.

By all means let's leave it how it is... It's working so well. My kids will just need 50 to 75,000 dollars to attend a pubkic college in 20 years.... Let's go on and throw money at a war on Isis which we have no idea what we are even fighting

 

[BigBlueSean]

Let's continue to not pursue energy alternatives.... Let's leave the education system how it is.... Screw that stuff, let's use billions of dollars to build a Damn wall.... Yeah buddy, my tax dollars at work!

 

[BigBlueSean]

Make no mistake Sean, whoever formed that opinion you parroted likely did it on a college campus.

For your sake, we'll assume you're in high school and not an actual adult with the viewpoints of a child like Fuzz.

Do tell me, how old are you? And what makes your views so much better or more "adult like". Get over yourself....

 

[WettCat]

You can spend $200,000 on college, but you certainly don't have to. Hope Scholarships, going to a community/junior college for the first two years, actual scholarships, etc. can all put a huge dent in the overall cost of getting a 4 year degree. I've got one in college and another that will start in about 18 months. It's not free, but it's not breaking our bank.

Not everyone has to go to Harvard and, for those that do, either have an incredibly wealthy nest egg or plan on earning tons of scholarships to pay for it. Otherwise, go somewhere else.

 

[Bill Cosby]

I'm 30 years old and my views are so much better and adult like because they're grounded in logic, reasoning and reality.

Viewpoints based in facebook posts, emotion and a disregard of reality are childlike.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

 

[Bill Cosby]

Let's continue to not pursue energy alternatives.... Let's leave the education system how it is.... Screw that stuff, let's use billions of dollars to build a Damn wall.... Yeah buddy, my tax dollars at work!

So you think a company like Tesla needs more government oversight and "democratic" influence? That if we give the government more power we'll wind up with a Tesla and not a Solyndra?

The education system is already ran by the government. And has been for a long time. And your solution isn't to do a 180 from what we've been doing, it's to slam down on the gas pedal?

We need to do something to keep the flood of criminals out of this country. Whether that's building a wall or enforcing our current laws.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

There have been floods of criminals coming to this country since the beginning. Why change it now?

 

[WettCat]

It really comes down to one simple fact:

If you promise the disillusioned and simpleminded lots of free things, they'll vote for it.

 

[jamo0001]

It really comes down to one simple fact:

If you promise the disillusioned and simpleminded lots of free things, they'll vote for it.

Now I'm confused about whether we're talking about Trump, Bernie, or Cruz

 

[Bill Cosby]

There have been floods of criminals coming to this country since the beginning. Why change it now?

Good point. Let's just scrap all our immigration laws. It's not like they're being enforced anyway.

 

[BigBlueSean]

So you think a company like Tesla needs more government oversight and "democratic" influence? That if we give the government more power we'll wind up with a Tesla and not a Solyndra?

The education system is already ran by the government. And has been for a long time. And your solution isn't to do a 180 from what we've been doing, it's to slam down on the gas pedal?

We need to do something to keep the flood of criminals out of this country. Whether that's building a wall or enforcing our current laws.

I'm sorry but what you call logic I would beg to differ. Now I agree with some of what you said. Something has to be done to get the likes of these major companies out of politics. Are we too far gone? Maybe... But I refuse to give all hope up. "A government for the people, by the people".... This capitalist society isnt for the people at all.... For the elite 1%? Yes, but not for the people as a whole. Not exactly for sure how many of these immigrants are" criminals" and that also depends on your definition of what a criminal is. I think a lot of it is fear mongering piled on. I agree to enforce the law...but to what extent? Can that even feasibly be done now? Or do we need to figure some other things out and explore some options?

I actually have majority Republican views. Was born into a Republican home and community. I'm not saying Bernie has it all figured out.... But some of his ideas aren't half bad... And vice versa with Republican candidates.



Bottom line is if the Republicans want the office back the nomination has to be Rubio IMO. Trump ain't gonna win and it's going to require a moderate Republican to win the demographic areas that need to be won.

 

[qwesley]

There have been floods of criminals coming to this country since the beginning. Why change it now?

Entitlements
School crowding
Wage suppression
Drug cartels
No more land to settle

 

[Bill Cosby]

Not exactly for sure how many of these immigrants are" criminals" and that also depends on your definition of what a criminal is. I think a lot of it is fear mongering piled on. I agree to enforce the law...but to what extent? Can that even feasibly be done now? Or do we need to figure some other things out and explore some options?

Under what definition, would someone who illegally sneaks into a country in violation of criminal statutes not be a criminal? How on earth could you come up with a definition of criminal that doesn't include "a person who has committed a crime."

Can the law even be enforced now? Jesus Christ. You're against building a wall on our borders because we don't currently have a wall on the borders and we can't feasibly enforce the immigration laws in its absence?

So we need to explore some options. Just as long as we don't secure the border. Any other options are on the table.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Entitlements
School crowding
Wage suppression
Drug cartels
No more land to settle

Fear of immigrants is as old as time my friend. http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ons-from-the-turn-of-the-20th-century/383248/

 

[JHB4UK]

no need to spend a penny on a wall if the incentives that bring illegals north are taken away. penalize owners of businesses who employ illegals $500K per incident, owners of property who rent to illegals $500 per incident. but GOP wont do that because it hurts businesses bottom line, Dems wont do that because it takes away their future voting base/dependency class.

 

[Bill Cosby]

No one here is worried about immigrants who aren't criminals. It's the one's who (by any definition of the word) are criminals.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

It really comes down to one simple fact:

If you promise the disillusioned and simpleminded lots of free things, they'll vote for it.

Wasnt it Alexis De Tocqueville who wrote that American democracy will survive until the voters realize they can vote for themselves great riches at the nations expense (paraphrased)? That was over 100 years ago. Pretty accurate, id say.

I'm sorry but what you call logic I would beg to differ. Now I agree with some of what you said. Something has to be done to get the likes of these major companies out of politics. Are we too far gone? Maybe... But I refuse to give all hope up. "A government for the people, by the people".... This capitalist society isnt for the people at all.... For the elite 1%? Yes, but not for the people as a whole. Not exactly for sure how many of these immigrants are" criminals" and that also depends on your definition of what a criminal is. I think a lot of it is fear mongering piled on. I agree to enforce the law...but to what extent? Can that even feasibly be done now? Or do we need to figure some other things out and explore some options?

I actually have majority Republican views. Was born into a Republican home and community. I'm not saying Bernie has it all figured out.... But some of his ideas aren't half bad... And vice versa with Republican candidates.



Bottom line is if the Republicans want the office back the nomination has to be Rubio IMO. Trump ain't gonna win and it's going to require a moderate Republican to win the demographic areas that need to be won.

What youre really arguing for is campaign finance reform, which everyone (except politicians) support.

So capitalism isnt fair? Tell me, which system is more fair? Socialism, I assume, is your choice. Lets take a very short and abbreviated look at this:

First, life aint fair. Neither system will achieve the fairness utopia you desire. This is an undeniable fact. Now, since we know no system will be fair, which is better? Capitalism isnt fair to those who dont produce. Socialism isnt fair to those who do. So, who deserves to profit more - those who produce or those who dont? Obviously those who produce.

How about status mobility? In socialism, there exists none. ZERO. In capitalism, if you are born unlucky, you can still improve your standing by producing. It doesnt matter what race, gender, or creed youre born; if you have a marketable ability you will be compensated by the free market.

In terms of immigration, noone has a problem with legal immigrants.

 

[-LEK-]

You guys are being big meanies to Sean. These microagressions will not stand. If Bernie was in, this would all go away.

 

[krazykats]

There have been floods of criminals coming to this country since the beginning. Why change it now?

Because it is actually killing the economy here. I understand that the number is probably exaggerated but let's focus on the ~10M Mexicans. Maybe that's 10M illegals, but for this example lets just assume they are Mexican.

So they are illegal and mostly in construction of some sort and getting paid cash. Now it's usually a lot less than what people used to charge to frame but those guys work, show up on time, and actually you know come back from lunch. So their employer is happy to have them and will protect them if he can. Anyway they live with several people all making money(very smart) and then the money they get paid is plentiful for them to live, well like slobs but it's close to being a king in Mexico, and they then send half their checks to Mexico. They avoid the drug cartels by dong this, and they also avoid the crime in their own country.

Hard to fault anyone in this case really but it impacts America by creating a vaccum to suck money out of an economy.

So even if only 10% of said illegals are doing this, and most get paid 12-15 an hour tax free do the math:

12 x 2080 = 24,960 of income not being taxed at a 20% rate and half of it going out of the country so 5000 per person per year not going into taxes, and 12000 per year per person sucked out of an American economy.

5000 x 1M = 5 trillion dollars less in taxes per year

12000 x 1M = 12 trillion dollars out of American ciculation a year

And we aren't close to year one of this type of activity which is why Obama wants to print money to cover it up.

Remember estimation is 10M and I'm only using 10% of that actual number!

That's real math for you to either not care or......well not care!

 

[qwesley]

Fear of immigrants is as old as time my friend. http://www.theatlantic.com/national...ons-from-the-turn-of-the-20th-century/383248/

Pure ignorance to compare conditions from vastly different periods of time. That is like saying Westboro protesting is like the crusades. But continue on with your tidy construct.

 

[TransyCat09]

Bernie is a populist, not a socialist. Socialism at least requires a certain understanding of markets.

Bernie's platform is: give the government more money and power and the people in power will dole out free stuff, but they'll be like totally nice about it and stuff. O and it will be paid for because he has a Microsoft Publisher brochure that says so. That's not socialism, that's pandering and economic illiteracy.

Basically, Bernie supporters think if you just elect the "right people" they can fix our problems. It's a bizarre trust in power and extension of the I FCKING LOVE SCIENCE crowd. They think "smart" people are so smart (mostly relative to their own intellect) that they can just tinker with society and set the tax rate to X and the entitlement payouts to Y and *voila* perfect country!

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Because it is actually killing the economy here. I understand that the number is probably exaggerated but let's focus on the ~10M Mexicans. Maybe that's 10M illegals, but for this example lets just assume they are Mexican.

So they are illegal and mostly in construction of some sort and getting paid cash. Now it's usually a lot less than what people used to charge to frame but those guys work, show up on time, and actually you know come back from lunch. So their employer is happy to have them and will protect them if he can. Anyway they live with several people all making money(very smart) and then the money they get paid is plentiful for them to live, well like slobs but it's close to being a king in Mexico, and they then send half their checks to Mexico. They avoid the drug cartels by dong this, and they also avoid the crime in their own country.

Hard to fault anyone in this case really but it impacts America by creating a vaccum to suck money out of an economy.

So even if only 10% of said illegals are doing this, and most get paid 12-15 an hour tax free do the math:

12 x 2080 = 24,960 of income not being taxed at a 20% rate and half of it going out of the country so 5000 per person per year not going into taxes, and 12000 per year per person sucked out of an American economy.

5000 x 1M = 5 trillion dollars less in taxes per year

12000 x 1M = 12 trillion dollars out of American ciculation a year

And we aren't close to year one of this type of activity which is why Obama wants to print money to cover it up.

Remember estimation is 10M and I'm only using 10% of that actual number!

That's real math for you to either not care or......well not care!

Ive decided that anyone who denies the negative financial impact of illegals is either being dishonest or just a party line fan boy. Either way, its just a waste of time explaining the obvious.

 

[qwesley]

Ive decided that anyone who denies the negative financial impact of illegals is either being dishonest or just a party line fan boy. Either way, its just a waste of time explaining the obvious.

It is worse than that. They know but the lust for power is more important. The "we are all immigrants" schtick is window dressing.

 

[-LEK-]

Because it is actually killing the economy here. I understand that the number is probably exaggerated but let's focus on the ~10M Mexicans. Maybe that's 10M illegals, but for this example lets just assume they are Mexican.

So they are illegal and mostly in construction of some sort and getting paid cash. Now it's usually a lot less than what people used to charge to frame but those guys work, show up on time, and actually you know come back from lunch. So their employer is happy to have them and will protect them if he can. Anyway they live with several people all making money(very smart) and then the money they get paid is plentiful for them to live, well like slobs but it's close to being a king in Mexico, and they then send half their checks to Mexico. They avoid the drug cartels by dong this, and they also avoid the crime in their own country.

Hard to fault anyone in this case really but it impacts America by creating a vaccum to suck money out of an economy.

So even if only 10% of said illegals are doing this, and most get paid 12-15 an hour tax free do the math:

12 x 2080 = 24,960 of income not being taxed at a 20% rate and half of it going out of the country so 5000 per person per year not going into taxes, and 12000 per year per person sucked out of an American economy.

5000 x 1M = 5 trillion dollars less in taxes per year

12000 x 1M = 12 trillion dollars out of American ciculation a year

And we aren't close to year one of this type of activity which is why Obama wants to print money to cover it up.

Remember estimation is 10M and I'm only using 10% of that actual number!

That's real math for you to either not care or......well not care!

I dont really have much of an opinion on immigration, so your post made me at least do some preliminary research on the topic. It appears there are 2 major reports that calculate the financial impact of immigration on America, the CBO and the heritage.org. I havent read all the way through them, but will comment once I do. I found some things interesting. Here is a link:

The critical fact shown in Chart 7 and Chart 8 is that, for each age category, the benefits received by unlawful immigrant households exceed the taxes paid. At no point in the life cycle does the average unlawful immigrant household pay more in taxes than it takes out in benefits. In each age category, unlawful immigrant households receive roughly $2.00 in government benefits for each dollar paid in taxes. Between ages 45 and 54 (generally considered prime earning years), unlawful immigrants actually receive nearly $3.00 in benefits for each dollar paid in taxes.

Assuming that the fiscal deficit for these unreported households was the same as the fiscal deficit for the unlawful immigrant households in the CPS, the total annual fiscal deficit (total benefits received minus total taxes paid) for all 3.79 million unlawful immigrant households together equaled $54.5 billion (the deficit of $14,387 per household times 3.79 million households). This sum includes direct and means-tested benefits, education, and population-based services.

That being stated, the report did report on amnesty:

The present analysis assumes that at the current time, some 55 percent of unlawful immigrant workers work on the books and 45 percent work off the books. The analysis assumes that if amnesty were enacted, 95 percent of future employment of the former unlawful immigrants would occur on the books. This would increase payments of federal and state income taxes, FICA taxes, and other labor taxes (such unemployment and work compensation fees) by nearly $14 billion per year.
During the interim period immediately following amnesty, tax revenues would increase more than government benefits, and the average fiscal deficit among the former unlawful households would fall to $11,455 per household.

Put another way, if amnesty were enacted, the average adult unlawful immigrant would subsequently receive $898,000 in government benefits over the course of a lifetime and pay $306,000 in taxes over the same period. The average lifetime fiscal deficit (benefit received minus taxes paid) would be around $592,000 for each adult amnesty recipient.

Conclusion
The United States offers enormous economic opportunities and societal benefits. Countless more people would immigrate to the U.S. if they had the opportunity. Given this context, the U.S. must be selective in its immigration policy. Policymakers must ensure that the interaction of welfare and other financial transfer programs with immigration does not expand the fiscally dependent population, thereby imposing large costs on American society.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Pure ignorance to compare conditions from vastly different periods of time. That is like saying Westboro protesting is like the crusades. But continue on with your tidy construct.

Yeah yeah yeah. Always pure ignorance from you and your ilk haha Have a good one Qbaby.

 

[wkycatfan]

To me, a democratic socialist government is where the masses have voted for a Robin Hood government. Usually that government is vulnerable to a hard line communist government in the near future.

 

[qwesley]

Yeah yeah yeah. Always pure ignorance from you and your ilk haha Have a good one Qbaby.

Always avoiding actually expressing your rationale, only chomsky youtube links and general myopia. Mind is closed shut.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Always avoiding actually expressing your rationale, only chomsky youtube links and general myopia. Mind is closed shut.

Blah blah blah. Love you Q. You're my biggest fan.

 

[qwesley]

Policymakers must ensure that the interaction of welfare and other financial transfer programs with immigration does not expand the fiscally dependent population, thereby imposing large costs on American society.

This. We should limit low end immigration, too many here already... and fast track skilled immigration and tax them healthily and require a sponsor fee to the hiring party. If we don't bring that labor here our companies will go where they are.

 

[krazykats]

Well I will say this, my numbers are extremely conservative at 10% of illegals on a 20% tax rate. The math is there and 5000 multiplied by 1M people is 5 trillion dollars a year. I assume maybe a lot them get majority back on a return so the estimate in said report is assuming the 14 billion is kept dollars by the US govt.

Nevertheless 14 billion dollars more in revenue, should not open a person up to any more benefits than they already receive. I mean they still aren't citizens yet, but at least then they are here legally.

 

[-LEK-]

Well I will say this, my numbers are extremely conservative at 10% of illegals on a 20% tax rate. The math is there and 5000 multiplied by 1M people is 5 trillion dollars a year. I assume maybe a lot them get majority back on a return so the estimate in said report is assuming the 14 billion is kept dollars by the US govt.

Nevertheless 14 billion dollars more in revenue, should not open a person up to any more benefits than they already receive. I mean they still aren't citizens yet, but at least then they are here legally.

After researching it, your numbers where off, but in the right direction. As I said, I dont have a dog in the fight, but the math/evidence appears overwhelmingly that immigrants costs vs government benefits are about 2 to 1. No system can sustain that.

 

[krazykats]

Correct. That's a huge hole to fill. I'm not against foreigners and I deal with the Mexican labor force every day and have had nothing but mutual respect. I won't say a bad word about them and if/when I build my house I know who I'll hire.

Regardless the system can not sustain the impact. If legalized the construction labor force alone becomes a competitive market again. You can barely get workers right now that aren't Amish or Mexican.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Conclusion
The United States offers enormous economic opportunities and societal benefits. Countless more people would immigrate to the U.S. if they had the opportunity. Given this context, the U.S. must be selective in its immigration policy. Policymakers must ensure that the interaction of welfare and other financial transfer programs with immigration does not expand the fiscally dependent population, thereby imposing large costs on American society.

This. We should limit low end immigration, too many here already... and fast track skilled immigration and tax them healthily and require a sponsor fee to the hiring party. If we don't bring that labor here our companies will go where they are.

This really zeroes in on the true problem. It isnt even illegal immigration. Its putting immigrants on social welfare. We should adopt a policy of nearly open immigration, but completely end any sort of social assistance to immigrants.

If someone can come to this country, produce a benefit to society and support themelves; by all means. Otherwise, no.

 

[-LEK-]

This really zeroes in on the true problem. It isnt even illegal immigration. Its putting immigrants on social welfare. We should adopt a policy of nearly open immigration, but completely end any sort of social assistance to immigrants.

If someone can come to this country, produce a benefit to society and support themelves; by all means. Otherwise, no.

I think the information shows that immigrants do contribute, its just that the benefits received by government out weighs those costs. I could see an argument that there is a need to help those, since they are already in the system, but maybe a focus on how we could make those in the county more active into paying taxes and less benefit consumption. I am not sure of the balance test needed, as we want to help (or at least I do) a displaced population, but it appears the cost is quite larger than I assumed it would have been.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I think the information shows that immigrants do contribute, its just that the benefits received by government out weighs those costs. I could see an argument that there is a need to help those, since they are already in the system, but maybe a focus on how we could make those in the county more active into paying taxes and less benefit consumption. I am not sure of the balance test needed, as we want to help (or at least I do) a displaced population, but it appears the cost is quite larger than I assumed it would have been.

Right which is why I think they need to produce AND be able to support themselves. There really is no easy answer. But as long as people are able to come here knowing our government will prop them up, this problem will never end. Its draining our country.

If they can come here and support themselves, more power to them. Id take a productive immigrant over a lazy American. But the government assistance must end.

 

[-LEK-]

I wonder if that takes into account all immigration, especially refuges. Some immigrant populations seem to have greater access to goods and services, while others remain more autonomous.

 

[Willy4UK]

Right which is why I think they need to produce AND be able to support themselves. There really is no easy answer. But as long as people are able to come here knowing our government will prop them up, this problem will never end. Its draining our country.

If they can come here and support themselves, more power to them. Id take a productive immigrant over a lazy American. But the government assistance must end.

And watch how Europe reacts in the next few years with all those middle eastern refugees are on Euorpean social services.... Will be grabbing popcorn for that one.

 

[JHB4UK]

support themselves? problem is mexican immigrants come here, make money, spend none on themselves beyond the basic living expenses & ship the rest back home. they do zero to spread their money around in the American economy. just temporarily taking advantage of the higher wages up north, no desire to ingrain in our culture or be a part of this country.

 

[Big_Blue79]

Trump's campaign is feeding heavily off the prosperity gospel, which explains why is he doing so well among evangelicals.

Prosperity gospel is complete trash.

Trump is the antithesis of Christian beliefs lol... Trump is like a poor man's Hitler

Your post about the difference between socialism and democratic socialism was good, and a reminder that differences (large or small) actually matter. Bernie is not a commie or full on socialist. But then you use the same tactic that troglodytes use against, say, Bernie, and apply it to Trump. One step forward, two steps back.

It is "prophesized" that we meet them in battle outside Damascus... we are the "antichrist" and "Jesus the MUslim" comes and wins the battle for them and institutes worldwide sharia.

It's all very disturbing, the mindset we are dealing with, what they actually believe and are fighting for. They don't just hate us for our freedoms.

That anyone ever believed this just boggles the mind. What a crock argument.

"Somebody likes trump takes office and with all his anti Muslim rhetoric, it makes it much easier for Isis to radicalize Muslims in the region."

This point show how ignorant some people are to what is happening in the world. History has shown us that these people have been fighting for thousands of years and no matter what you do they will continue to fight.

Not to pick on your personally, but I'm going to address this post since this seems to be an occasionally recurring theme here. Go look at why Al Qaeda began attacking the US. Or why the USSR was Big Satan and the US Little Satan (we're probably Big Satan now). Or just history. Stating that US policy and actions has no discernable impact on radical Islamic terrorism is an ignorant argument not grounded in logic, history, or facts. Now, there can be both 1) impact from US policies/actions/rhetoric and 2) they're nutjobs that will always have some level.