If we cannot discuss red flag circumstances because of a person’s political or social standing, then it gives credibility to those who claim such laws will be used to target particular groups. Nightwish would not even address the issue because of the person’s sexual identity. If that is the approach the left takes to red flag laws, the opposition might have a point.For me, Red Flag laws are at the top of the discussion list. When I think of Red Flag laws, I think of the dude who shot the Nashville area Waffle House up (killing 4 IIRC) His guns had been taken from him in Illinois after a series of incidents, but law enforcement gave them to his dad, who in return gave them back to him. This dude had more Red Flags than a Donald Trump loan application, yet was able to get his guns back, and for an encore, killed those people. FWIW, his dad was sentenced to 18 month in jail in 2022 and is probably still there. Red Flag Laws should have seen his guns taken away and never returned and prevented him from ever being able to LEGALLY purchase another.
Nashville Waffle House shooting - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
The second Red Flag story that comes to mind when my former coworker shot two Kingsport police officers who came to his house for a disturbance with his neighbor. He retired a couple of years before I did, but I hadn't talked to him until he came to a retiree picnic. The former slow talking, level headed country boy was now a ranting, obviously troubled man. His voice was even different. He ranted on about the Bible and end times, talking so fast it was hard to keep up with him. We were like WTF? and a few laughed about it when he left. A couple of weeks later, he was on the front page of the local paper for what was his second stalking charge. Earlier that year, he had been arrested for stalking and ordered to undergo counseling. Now he was charged with aggravated stalking and was scheduled to go to trial. A couple of weeks before his trial, he got into an argument with a neighbor. The neighbor called the cops. The cops were walking up to his door when he stepped out and pumped multiple rounds from a 12 gauge into them. One officer was treated and released, but the other was seriously injured and required several surgeries. He then barricaded himself in his house, and after a standoff, shot and killed himself. If they had taken his guns after the first stalking charge, he may have still killed himself somehow, but those officers wouldn't have been shot.
Third (and I'll stop there) Red Flag case was a coworker of my niece in VA. She was leaving her abusive husband and had gotten a restraining order against him after he told her he'd kill her and her mother if she left him. As usual, the restraining order alone was worthless, as he kept his promise to kill her and her mom. I suppose he could've found another way to kill them but having access to his gun made it too easy.
Mass shooting at Old National Bank in Downtown Louisville
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It wasn't an error. According to the law he didn't do enough to have his guns removed / thrown in jail.
Part of the problem with red flag laws is that it gives the impression of a clear slippery slope to backdoor gun control. (Insert your own joke here).
This guy clearly needed to be arrested / disarmed prior to the shooting. I know Wayne has a circumstance that we all pray for which this is not prologue. A way for LEO to charge/disarm someone who is threatening others in a manifest way is one thing. Taking away someone's constitutional rights because of some mental health issues is quite another. The more we know, the more we know that nearly everyone has a touch of mental health issue. Saying that anyone with a mental health issue loses their constitutional rights is an exception that swallows the right.
Not possessing a firearm is going to be part of the bond/bail conditions of any charge that involves firearms that I am aware of. It strikes me that tweaking the criminal justice system is likely a better solution than creating a red flag system that is going to be reliant on expert witnesses to determine what mental health issues a person has.
There is a mistrust issue going both ways. 2A advocates don't trust gun control advocates to not attempt to exploit any new law or approach as a method of gun control. Gun control advocates don't think guns have any purpose in civil society and don't trust the NRA/2A advocates to not do anything possible to ensure that there is no way to address mass shootings.
It is a gordian knot that is difficult to untangle.
This guy clearly needed to be arrested / disarmed prior to the shooting. I know Wayne has a circumstance that we all pray for which this is not prologue. A way for LEO to charge/disarm someone who is threatening others in a manifest way is one thing. Taking away someone's constitutional rights because of some mental health issues is quite another. The more we know, the more we know that nearly everyone has a touch of mental health issue. Saying that anyone with a mental health issue loses their constitutional rights is an exception that swallows the right.
Not possessing a firearm is going to be part of the bond/bail conditions of any charge that involves firearms that I am aware of. It strikes me that tweaking the criminal justice system is likely a better solution than creating a red flag system that is going to be reliant on expert witnesses to determine what mental health issues a person has.
There is a mistrust issue going both ways. 2A advocates don't trust gun control advocates to not attempt to exploit any new law or approach as a method of gun control. Gun control advocates don't think guns have any purpose in civil society and don't trust the NRA/2A advocates to not do anything possible to ensure that there is no way to address mass shootings.
It is a gordian knot that is difficult to untangle.
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I was thinking about this the other day. You don't want a situation where half the country is flagged thereby creating gun control through something like this... so how could you approach it?
- Establish the sort of behavior / reporting rules that would get somebody flagged (anti-social behavior w/ threatening, using weapons while intoxicated, stuff like that). For example, showing up in front of my kid's school on an ATV with two pistols strapped to you while wearing body armor.
- Use data to determine what portion of the population would fit this category (let's say 0.5%)
- Set limits on the amount of red flags that could be given out based on the data above (so no more than that 0.5%)
- Make the law apply for 2 years and then expire. So the honus on congress is to vote in back in place again.
Believe it or not, if someone in the govt actually even cared or wanted to try, there would be some nice options to try and curb this. It’s not this impossible just raise your hands in the air unsolvable mystery. Wayne came up with some good thoughts just by himself on a Saturday. The fact no one in our corrupt shit government even wants to attempt anything is nauseating.
When my issue at my kid’s school occurred, I called the police, the sheriff, the county AG, the governor, and the former KY AG. Long and short of it is that while they say they all care, the attitude is “the law’s the law and there’s nothing we can really do”.
The only thing that’s going to get movement on this issue is a serious push from the voters on the state legislature. And polls actually support these methods I mentioned.
One other thing… the largest city in the US in the year the constitution was signed was Philadelphia (pop. 40,000), which had 5,000 more people than Richmond, KY does today
Point is, back then almost everyone lived in small communities and knew who the wackos were and were able to deal with them. I’m advocating dealing with the wackos, not broad based gun control.
We should frame it this way politically.
Point is, back then almost everyone lived in small communities and knew who the wackos were and were able to deal with them. I’m advocating dealing with the wackos, not broad based gun control.
We should frame it this way politically.
Political persuasion, social standing, religion/lack of, or sexual orientation doesn't figure into my feelings on Red Flag laws. As the owner of 2 guns, I support strict(er) background checks, maybe a psychological exam, a waiting period, no private sales without a background check, but most of all Red Flag Laws. My coworker should have had his guns taken after his first stalking charge, and certainly after his 2nd one. I've thought many times in regret that I didn't try to reach out to him after that retiree picnic. I had been fishing with him a few times over the years and once on a 3 day business trip. As I told his family at the funeral, that (the guy who was arrested) wasn't who he was. They didn't know what had happened to him, and said they begged him to get help, but outside of his court ordered therapy, he never sought any.
What a surprise. A lefty saw a shooting and bumped this thread to call for more gun laws, but like the vast, vast majority of these situations, had the government just enforced existing laws thus shooting would have been avoided.
What a surprise. A righty saw a shooting and says move a long, there is nothing to see here. My guns, my freedom, blah, blah, blah.
IE, move along there is nothing to see here because even when enforced, those laws have done nothing to prevent these shootings from happening, dumbass.
So why would more laws help? Why is Chicago still a river of blood every weekend?
I get it, nothing short of gun bans will satisfy you lunatic zealots.
Pretty goddam stupid to say laws won’t work when enforced, then turn around and lobby for additional laws.
The Chicago gun law argument has been debunked plenty. Do a little research. Part of it is Chicago is surrounded by some of the weakest gun law states in the country.
I never said bans at all. Red flag laws, age restrictions, enhanced background checks, and waiting periods aren’t bans and are common sense approaches to changes that might have a positive impact. We won’t know until we try.
Even more goddamn stupid to continue to do the same things and expect different results. The laws in the books for most of these shootings have been enforced. Louisville was. Nashville was. Maybe additional red flag laws would have stopped them. Maybe waiting periods would have helped. We don’t know because jackasses like you refuse to even consider something that is fairly middle ground and common sense. Again, you are my guns, my freedom like I said initially.
It’s remarkable to me how you anti-gun zealots can hear, “we need to enforce existing laws rather than giving passes to the mentally I’ll, allowing free flow of drugs and guns across our border, etc.” and think that means “do the same thing and expect different results.”
I’m telling you we should do things differently. I don’t know if it’s your lack of reading comprehension, or just inability to reason, but how you think that means “do the same thing” is beyond me.
I am not sure gun advocates care much about big city murder rates. Red flag laws, age restrictions, enhanced background checks, and waiting periods won’t have any impact on young men killing young men and the collateral damage of their destruction and lack of respect for human life.
Yeah. Chicago really has gun violence figured out, it is actually the fault of the surrounding states!
Do you listen to yourself? That is stupid.
I never said that but that doesn’t fit the narrative. Part of the problem with Chicago is the surrounding states. Chicago has its problems too but that doesn’t discount that many of the gun law arguments using Chicago as an example have been debunked.
What are you saying do differently? Current laws would not have stopped Louisville, Nashville, or Uvalde. Just saying enforce the laws is not doing anything differently.
I’m not anti gun either. I don’t know if you not recognizing that is “your lack of reading comprehension or your inability to reason”.
Did you forget you chose to quote my post about this thread being bumped after the shooting in Texas being done by an illegal alien?
Nope. That shooting may have been prevented. All shootings should be stopped but a neighbor shooting neighbors is vastly different than Louisville, Nashville, and Uvalde. Nothing in the current laws would prevent those.
This thread is a thread about the Louisville shooting as well.
TCurtis is arguing this topic today w/ the efficiency of a Fetterman teleprompter.
This thread was dead and was bumped specifically due to the Texas shooting. I said enforcing laws would have prevented it, and you flew off the handle.
You’ve now acknowledged I was right and you were wrong. Thank you. It’s not often people on Catpaw admit they were wrong like you just did.
Less than half the guns used in Illinois crime come from Illinois, data analysis shows
New data analyzed by the ABC7 I-Team found less than half of all guns used in crimes in Illinois came from Illinois.
Just one link stating that the majority of guns used in Chicago crime come from outside of Illinois. That was his point
The bigger issue is what about the other shootings that the current laws don’t fix? Let’s just keep doing the same things, right?
Less than half the guns used in Illinois crime come from Illinois, data analysis shows
New data analyzed by the ABC7 I-Team found less than half of all guns used in crimes in Illinois came from Illinois.abc7chicago.com
Just one link stating that the majority of guns used in Chicago crime come from outside of Illinois. That was his point
It's also irrelevant....and it proves that gun laws like Chicago's are pointless. Bad gonna be bad however possible.
No...just bringing it down to your level by equating it to Fetterman. Would a Kamala word salad clip suit be better for you?
And what a great point it was.Less than half the guns used in Illinois crime come from Illinois, data analysis shows
New data analyzed by the ABC7 I-Team found less than half of all guns used in crimes in Illinois came from Illinois.
Just one link stating that the majority of guns used in Chicago crime come from outside of Illinois. That was his point
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