Article on Self burying talent. SIAP
- Thread starter BigBlueFanGA
- Start date
I'm fine with the lofty expectations. But why is it the same fans with those expectations also go the most ape-shit if these players don't quite hit their marks? You're pumping an awful lot of rainbows. SKJ is not a "stud". Gabriel, while moving up the charts, isn't quite a "stud".
And SKJ would only MAYBE start on this team because of how bad we are in the front court. Don't forget that sub20 recruits don't get many minutes under Cal. He's certainly not going to start next year, that's absurd. He's practically a twig, in the same mold (bodywise) as Skal and Henson. Why would he start and not a Senior Lee? Or Hump, if he gets more minutes this year. Or Skal?
I'm glad you were kind enough to personify the exact fan I was describing. You immediately think, because this class fell short (of your own damn expecations, no less), that next years class is automatically better. That's a problem.
BTW, I hope you're 100% right and our guys are the next coming of Kobe, Garnett, Davis and Wall. I would love to be totally wrong on this. There's a good chance I am. I do like this class better than the current one, and do think they'll succeed.
But, just... pump the breaks a little bit. We've become starry-eyed every mix-tape we've seen and every recruiting list we've viewed. And there is a large list of guys who fell very short of where we (and the media) thought they'd be.
But, just... pump the breaks a little bit. We've become starry-eyed every mix-tape we've seen and every recruiting list we've viewed. And there is a large list of guys who fell very short of where we (and the media) thought they'd be.
no one hangs more banners for sagarin rankings than ku. no one.
Don't worry diallo and Bragg will have their breakout games against us.
Here is my question.
Wasn't alexander not playing last year because of the ncaa investigation, and didn't want to risk trouble? It sounds like Ellis plays defense like Willis. Since ellis is only a freshman in his 14th yr at kansas he has another 10 years to work on d.
I haven't watched kansas much this yr, but has diallo and Bragg been that bad when out there? I know that the skal's the limit but to be compared in a negative way to skal who was sometimes ranked as the number 1 player, that takes effort
Here is my question.
Wasn't alexander not playing last year because of the ncaa investigation, and didn't want to risk trouble? It sounds like Ellis plays defense like Willis. Since ellis is only a freshman in his 14th yr at kansas he has another 10 years to work on d.
I haven't watched kansas much this yr, but has diallo and Bragg been that bad when out there? I know that the skal's the limit but to be compared in a negative way to skal who was sometimes ranked as the number 1 player, that takes effort
And it isn't working with Skal......Dude can't even get a put back in. Sad thing is, you can tell he is trying or thinking wayyy to hard.
DIallo is mightly overrated, per 40 numbers or not. Think Marcus Lee in terms of offensive ability.
Bragg has looked much better and frankly, I think he's the better player now and going forward. Just not seeing it with Diallo. He's so hyper on the court. He's great to sub in if you need a guy to get called for a moving screen or to chuck up a 17-footer the first time he touches the ball
If what my friend told me is true, This. My friend went to the final four games in 2012 and while there actually had a conversation with Thomas Robinson's AAU coach. He said he wasn't too fond of Self because he likes to hold certain players back so player X won't leave and his team will benefit the following year. Also said he liked Calipari because of the exact opposite.
The Self way...lol. I think he tried to experiment the last few years playing young talent just to keep up with recruiting, but hasn't had much success. So now I think he's just finally said "screw it" I'm going to do it my way even if it cost me 5-star recruits.
His teams may be better without 5-star talent in that he seems to do better with high 3 & 4 star talent that play a few years than with young talent.
If KU has their annual 2nd round tourney departure again this year he might begin to feel some heat. Then again KU fans seem to have become content with Big 12 t & KENPOM titles...lolol.
His teams may be better without 5-star talent in that he seems to do better with high 3 & 4 star talent that play a few years than with young talent.
If KU has their annual 2nd round tourney departure again this year he might begin to feel some heat. Then again KU fans seem to have become content with Big 12 t & KENPOM titles...lolol.
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anon_9qtxg60vqzy0y
Guest
Absolutely. I love having great players and awesome teams as much as anyone, but if it is at the expense of lying to a kid about his draft status or hiding them on the bench then I am not for it.
![[roll]](http://l.yimg.com/j/assets/img/emoticons/classic/roll.r191677.gif "roll [roll]")
Ha, I hope it is me. I'll gladly take it. But do me ONE favor. If these recruits do fall a bit short, and SKJ rides bench for most of the year, I don't want to see you go off the handle, and turn these forums into a repeat of what we are seeing right now. Not saying you will, not saying you're doing it now...But it will happen with a lot of posters, that I am sure of...
BTW, Bolden is 6'10" 250+ lb. Not a chance he plays the 3. Also don't think he will have much of an affect on SKJ.
Skal and SKJ are more-so stretch 4's (at the pro level). Bolden is a big-body for down low.
If SKal just buckles down, plays, and gains some confidence, He'll get the start. For as far off as he is right now, I don't think he has much to do, to grab starter minutes (as weird as that sounds to say..)
What helps SKJ's chances is that we have no one, aside from Skal, who can really play the 3. Our guards top out at 6 foot 3... and our big bodies are way too beefy and tall to guard the 3. Skal and SKJ are the only viable options for the 3 unless someone comes out of nowhere, like Matthews. They are tall, yes, but lightweight and can move with a 3. That length could make them a matchup nightmare for a 3.
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Gabriel is going to play the 3. If we get Bolden I don't think Gabriel will play PF at all next year with Humphries/Wainard/SKJ/Willis/Bam/Bolden for the post spots.
Yeah, you could say that Cal has done okay with his talent.
Calipari has, in part, overseen the production of four overall #1 picks. Those #1 picks have gone to lead their teams to three Final Fours, two national title games, and four Elite Eights. Their team's records were 38-2, 35-3, 38-2, and 38-1.
That's a combined record of 149-8.
Cal has also overseen the following top 20 draft picks:
#1 - Anthony Davis (national champion) OAD
#1 - John Wall (Elite Eight) OAD
#1 - Karl Towns (Final Four) OAD
#1 - Derrick Rose (runner-up) OAD
#2 - Marcus Camby (Final Four)
#2 - Michael Kidd Gilchrist (national champion) OAD
#3 - Enes Kanter (N/A) OAD
#4 - Tyreke Evans (Sweet Sixteen) OAD
#5 - Demarcus Cousins (Elite Eight) OAD
#6 - Nerlens Noel (N/A) OAD
#6 - Dajuan Wagner OAD
#6 - Willie Cauley-Stein (Final Four)
#7 - Julius Randle (Runner-up) OAD
#8 - Brandon Knight (Final Four) OAD
#13 - Trey Lyles (Final Four) OAD
#14 - Devin Booker (Final Four) OAD
#14 - Pattrick Patterson (Elite Eight)
#16 - Rodney Carney (Elite Eight)
#17 - Shawne Williams (Elite Eight) OAD
#17 - James Young (runner-up) OAD
#18 - Terrence Jones (national champion)
#18 - Eric Bledsoe (Elite Eight) OAD
So, of Cal's twenty-two top 20 picks, 17 have been OAD players. Of those 17 OAD guys, all of them except two were starters (Kanter, Booker) and nine of them played in a Final Four and twelve of them were starters on teams that went to at least the Elite Eight.
*This of course, is before you factor in guys like Goodwin, Teague, Orton, the Harrisons, etc. - guys who were absolutely showcased and maxed-out during their short stays in Lexington.
If anyone (generally speaking and not directed to STL_Cat) tries to build a case that Cal holds kids back, they're completely ignorant of the facts.
I believe what the article is saying that Coach Self is burying the talent to ensure that both Bragg and Diallo will be back next year to play. If you look at Diallo numbers since returning he has played in 11 and Bragg in 16 and they have close to identical stats. They both play around 10 minutes a game and avg. 4ppg. and 2-3 rpg. I really thought after watching Diallo last year in High School and in the All-Star games that he would get 25-30 minutes and have many Double/Doubles this year for Kansas. Bragg was first upset when Self was recruiting Diallo hard to come to Kansas with Ellis already there and the talent Kansas had coming back. I know one thing if either Diallo or Bragg would have come to UK they would had at least 25-30 minutes a game esp with Skal still working out his problems and how POY is so inconsistent with his play. Diallo would had 30 minutes playing time with UK with Lack of Big Men Consistency in scoring right now.
If they can't beat us this year they might as well swear off ever playing us again . As for Self , I'm fine with him at Kansas . It's not a crazy benefit like Crean at IU but I still don't feel that what we are doing is threatened by them .
This is exactly what changed Bolden's decision at one time being all experts were saying Bolden was leaning to Kansas. It has been pretty much Kansas or Kentucky for Bolden but now that both Bragg and Diallo look to return at Kansas that is why Bolden has shifted towards Kentucky.
That is not correct at all. His mentor is saying to Bolden, do you want to go to Kansas and play mind games with Bill Self or do you want to go to a straight shooter who will not bury you or bullshit you from the NBA. There is zero fear about competing against Bragg or Diallo, zero. It is about the kid's future, look at Randle and UK, Cal shot straight with him and did not BS around. It has zero and I mean zero in regards of this kid going to KU and competing against these 2 guys. Diallo for sure should be declaring for the draft, no excuse for Self doing this to the kid.
Roy Williams was panned awhile back during their NC run, NBA scouts all say he buried guys and you would have to say it was true, Henson was buried. Think ole "just ran out of time" guy is full of it.
Bolden to UK is because his mentor trusts UK a lot more than to chance a deal with Self and KU. Alexander to me is the real Billy Self. Take a top five-15 draft kid coming from HS and makes him undraftable. He has done this to Diallo and Bragg, all were 1st round types.
I think you and dave5164 were both making the same argument, that Bolden doesn't want the Bragg/Diallo treatment from Self. He knows Cal won't bury him on the bench in an effort to keep him 4 years.
I can barely remember a tournament when you didn't. I'm already penciling you in again this year.
Get pissed all you want, but even you as a KU fan know this is true about Bill Self and it's going to keep on killing your recruiting classes in the future. Until Self actually starts playing the more talented players, don't expect to get too many top 50 type of big men. Without those type of talents, you have no chance at winning any titles anytime soon. Your two current bigs are a joke and unless you guys can get the two big freshman bigs into the games and get them ready to compete at a high level, you will be upset when you are bounced from the tourney the first chance you get when you play a team with a talented frontcourt. Big men that will go on and play in the Nba in the future.
