Article on Self burying talent. SIAP

[BigBlueFanGA]

interesting read. He is playing a dangerous game, especially when you look at those per/40 stats. It's gonna bite him in the butt one of these days .

http://www.sbnation.com/college-bas...ick-diallo-nba-draft-2016-jayhawks-recruiting

 

[STL_Cat]

To be honest the most damning line in that article is this one, and it's not damning to Kansas:

Diallo has been horrible for Kansas in the early going, and unlike with (Kentucky's Skal) Labissiere, scouts can't point to a skill that would be unleashed in a different system.

Not that I agree with the line. We've all see Skal isn't ready. But if you want to pick this apart that sounds worse for us than the Diallo stuff does for Kansas. However, I think Cal has more than proven that he doesn't bury talent.

 

[DwayneMeighan]

Not the majority, but a decent amount of posters on the KU Scout site having been complaining about this since last year (Oubre and Alexander), and this year they are getting even more vocal about the Diallo and Bragg situation.

 

[Smashcat]

interesting read. He is playing a dangerous game, especially when you look at those per/40 stats. It's gonna bite him in the butt one of these days .

http://www.sbnation.com/college-bas...ick-diallo-nba-draft-2016-jayhawks-recruiting

Diallo and Bragg saw what happened with Alexander yet willingly jumped aboard. I never was a huge Diallo fan but loved Bragg.

 

[CrustyCat]

Bragg, Alexander, Diallo - not everyone is going to make the best decision I guess and there will always be some who buy the tripe Self is selling.

One or more of these guys most likely swallowed the negative recruiting crap Self employs about UK and believed that they would be buried on UK's bench this year or years past. Any of those guys would be seeing a lot of minutes this year had they come.

 

[docholiday51]

Diallo and Bragg saw what happened with Alexander yet willingly jumped aboard. I never was a huge Diallo fan but loved Bragg.

Yes they did, never understood what was their attraction to KU. Even the platoon system looks better for them than what goes on at KU. Who knows what we may find out about KU one of these days

 

[caneintally]

To be honest the most damning line in that article is this one, and it's not damning to Kansas:

Diallo has been horrible for Kansas in the early going, and unlike with (Kentucky's Skal) Labissiere, scouts can't point to a skill that would be unleashed in a different system.

Not that I agree with the line. We've all see Skal isn't ready. But if you want to pick this apart that sounds worse for us than the Diallo stuff does for Kansas. However, I think Cal has more than proven that he doesn't bury talent.

I know you said you don't agree with it but let's say someone does ,SO UK should scrap what is best for the team for one player? Hell no . Skal would be way more effective in a helter skelter , no structure type of offense and defense but it ain't going to make him a better player. He was amazing in the all the all star games due to this ( as was Diallo ) but that ain't high level basketball. I have no doubt Skal will be a great pro and have some good games before he leaves UK but his greatness is way down the road ..Like 3 years .

 

[STL_Cat]

I know you said you don't agree with it but let's say someone does ,SO UK should scrap what is best for the team for one player? Hell no . Skal would be way more effective in a helter skelter , no structure type of offense and defense but it ain't going to make him a better player. He was amazing in the all the all star games due to this ( as was Diallo ) but that ain't high level basketball. I have no doubt Skal will be a great pro and have some good games before he leaves UK but his greatness is way down the road ..Like 3 years .

Absolutely not. My only point was this was posted here to blast Bill Self and by reading that article I think the most damning line concerns Skal.

 

[wcc31]

The problem is not Diallo/Bragg not getting PT. The problem is Lucas/Traylor ARE getting PT.

Last year, every metric stated Alexander was far and away KU's most productive big. Instead, Self stuck with his marginal bigs. Same this year.

Calipari has done everything he can to play Skal.

 

[mj2k10]

Absolutely not. My only point was this was posted here to blast Bill Self and by reading that article I think the most damning line concerns Skal.

Yeah, except Cal has so many other stud freshmen who have thrived under his tutelage that almost no one is going to point to Skal as anything other than an exception. Which is why UK has five 5 stars signed for next year, including 3 big(ger) guys.

Self, OTOH, has none, and Diallo and Bragg aren't looking like exceptions, they're looking like the rule. So you tell me who has the bigger problem?

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Absolutely not. My only point was this was posted here to blast Bill Self and by reading that article I think the most damning line concerns Skal.

What are you talking about? The line was that Diallo doesn't have a tangible skill to point to, unlike Skal. That sounds complimentary of Skal. How do you take that as "damning"?

 

[Deli owl]

This is why we pick up Bolden

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

This is why we pick up Bolden

I don't know if he's gonna wait that long. We may not know what Skal is gonna do until late May now with the rule change.

 

[BostonCat2001]

The problem is not Diallo/Bragg not getting PT. The problem is Lucas/Traylor ARE getting PT.

Last year, every metric stated Alexander was far and away KU's most productive big. Instead, Self stuck with his marginal bigs. Same this year.

Calipari has done everything he can to play Skal.

landen lucas reminds me of mark coury.

 

[wcc31]

landen lucas reminds me of mark coury.

He's terrible. Traylor isn't much better.

 

[tbone.ky]

To be honest the most damning line in that article is this one, and it's not damning to Kansas:

Diallo has been horrible for Kansas in the early going, and unlike with (Kentucky's Skal) Labissiere, scouts can't point to a skill that would be unleashed in a different system.

Not that I agree with the line. We've all see Skal isn't ready. But if you want to pick this apart that sounds worse for us than the Diallo stuff does for Kansas. However, I think Cal has more than proven that he doesn't bury talent.

I agree that Ford was implying Skal wasn't effective in Cal's system thus far. Not due to PT, but where Cal has wanted him to play more of a 5 (back to basket and post on the block)rather than a stretch 4. In other words, suggesting that Skal doesn't fit Cal's offensive scheme... A lot like Wiltjer didn't fit Cal's defensive preference of man-to-man rather than using a zone with him like at Gonzaga.

Of course, even if Cal played him quite a bit at the 4 it still doesn't address his defensive struggles with rebounding and positioning. But, IMO, I don't think Ford, NBA GMs, or any college coach has the "right" answer for Skal at the moment.

 

[STL_Cat]

What are you talking about? The line was that Diallo doesn't have a tangible skill to point to, unlike Skal. That sounds complimentary of Skal. How do you take that as "damning"?

I really don't want to harp on it because it's not a big deal. You missed my point. I meant it's damning more for Calipari or Kentucky. What it says is he has a tangible skill that could be unleashed in another system. As in Skal could be great right now, UK just isn't using him right. I disagree with that point fwiw. But saying Diallo simply doesn't look like that great of a player isn't exactly damning to Self for not playing him.

Antes not a big deal. Just an observation in the article.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

We've seen this for the last couple years, burying talent. Sometimes for legit reasons, sometimes for nefarious ones. Maybe that's why Butler, Mass, Harvard and Penn St. all have better recruiting classes than Kansas for 2016.

You can't be a top 25 recruit, see what Self is doing to recruits, and be thrilled about the thought of playing for Kansas.

"But will Bolden really choose Lawrence after seeing what happened to Alexander and now Diallo?"

 

[wildcatsboston1984]

In summary (details below courtesy of Synergy), Diallo is absolutely horrible in the halfcourt on both offense and defense, and he ranks as one of the worst defensive players in the nation, especially in postup defense. The only think he ranks better than average in is transition offense.

Diallo on Offense

• In the halfcourt, which accounts for 78.4% of Diallo's used possessions possessions used, Diallo only ranks in the bottom 46% in points per possession, scoring 0.825 points per possession.
• Against man defense, which accounts for 70% of his used possessions, he ranks in the bottom 21% in points per possession at 0.679
• On post ups, which accounts for 31.4% of his possessions, he ranks in the bottom 26% at 0.688 points per possession
• However, he does excel in transition offense at 1.455 points per possession, better than 93% of players.

Diallo on Defense

• He is allowing one point per possession, which ranks in the bottom 16%
• In man defense, which accounts for all his defensive possessions, he ranks in the bottom 15%
• On post up defense, he is allowing 1.188 points per possession, which ranks in the bottom 6%
• In halfcourt postup defense, he is allowing 1.5 points per possession, which ranks in the bottom 1%

 

[UK till Death]

Self isn't burying his star freshmen, he's just running out of time to play them.

 

[jrpross]

The problem is not Diallo/Bragg not getting PT. The problem is Lucas/Traylor ARE getting PT.

Last year, every metric stated Alexander was far and away KU's most productive big. Instead, Self stuck with his marginal bigs. Same this year.

Calipari has done everything he can to play Skal.

That has to look good for recruits. Even when someone isn't playing as well as we thought they would, they still will have an opportunity. Skal's minutes have decreased a lot, but he's still getting 10-15 minutes and Cal only yanks him when he racks up fouls or gets trashed on defense or whatever. Self just doesn't play em.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

I really don't want to harp on it because it's not a big deal. You missed my point. I meant it's damning more for Calipari or Kentucky. What it says is he has a tangible skill that could be unleashed in another system. As in Skal could be great right now, UK just isn't using him right. I disagree with that point fwiw. But saying Diallo simply doesn't look like that great of a player isn't exactly damning to Self for not playing him.

Antes not a big deal. Just an observation in the article.

Ok, I did misunderstand your meaning.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Diallo, Skal, and Jeter show that scouts and we fans put far too much into the AS game performances and star rankings. I confess that I was suckered into taking the bait with Skal and Diallo. I thought if we had got Diallo, we would be almost unstoppable. Another one is Kennard, who isn't in the same camp as those guys, but his shooting has not come close to living up to his hype.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

^^ It's why I really worry about fans here thinking next year's class is going to have no flaws, everyone is going to shoot 40%+ and won't have any problems adjusting.

We all thought Matthews was going to be the next coming of Artest on defense, Skal was mini-AD, Murray was the best PG Cal had in years (although, he could be) etc etc.

Don't really care how good the 2016 class is. I expect at least 1 or 2 UK players to have trouble adjusting, I expect SKJ to get virtually no minutes his first year. I expect defense lapses. I expect shooting % for most of them to drop a bit. I expect more grey hairs from Cal. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we have a "Skal" next year.. someone who thinks they can play like they did in HS and just coast, and fans really turn on them.

HS basketball is not college basketball. Sounds like a no-brainer remark, but it eludes so many people here, even myself.

 

[docholiday51]

Diallo, Skal, and Jeter show that scouts and we fans put far too much into the AS game performances and star rankings. I confess that I was suckered into taking the bait with Skal and Diallo. I thought if we had got Diallo, we would be almost unstoppable. Another one is Kennard, who isn't in the same camp as those guys, but his shooting has not come close to living up to his hype.

This begs the question ,could a school have put together a class out of this year's frosh that could have stayed in the top 5 all year. I know everyone had some returning players, but is it reasonable that you could have recruited by various positions to put a 'super' class together or was this incoming bunch just that weak.

I submit that Cal did just about as well as could have been done, maybe Bryant instead of Skal(if we had gotten Ingram then Murray probably doesn't come)

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

Line, I am very excited about that class, but I don't think they are without weaknesses. I just think their athleticism is off the charts, the guards look poised and appear to be very good scorers, and Bam looks like a man among men. I feel safe in assuming they will be much better than this year's class.

 

[docholiday51]

^^ It's why I really worry about fans here thinking next year's class is going to have no flaws, everyone is going to shoot 40%+ and won't have any problems adjusting.

We all thought Matthews was going to be the next coming of Artest on defense, Skal was mini-AD, Murray was the best PG Cal had in years (although, he could be) etc etc.

Don't really care how good the 2016 class is. I expect at least 1 or 2 UK players to have trouble adjusting, I expect SKJ to get virtually no minutes his first year. I expect defense lapses. I expect shooting % for most of them to drop a bit. I expect more grey hairs from Cal. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we have a "Skal" next year.. someone who thinks they can play like they did in HS and just coast, and fans really turn on them.

HS basketball is not college basketball. Sounds like a no-brainer remark, but it eludes so many people here, even myself.

We probably will have a Skal next year.......the same one we have this year if he knows what is good for him.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Oh absolutely. I'm equally as excited for the same reasons. I do think this will be a top3 class for Cal from the start, and maybe top2.

"Athleticism" always worries, though. As does "Fundamentals". I feel like those never go hand-in-hand for a recruit. Like we'll have this athletic specimen but they are terrible shooters (MKG, Briscoe). And if we have good shooters, or rather "good fundamentals", they have poor athleticism and get burned often (Wiltjer).

That's all teams by the way, not just us. Funny how some of these recruiting buzz-words workout. I really don't think HS ball, or even AAU Ball will expose a top50 player's weakness. In a way, the strengths of that player shadow the weaknesses due to lack of good competition.

Or maybe the College game is just such a different animal.

Excited either way. But I do hope our fans dial back the expectations. That's how you get a situation like Skal where he's quickly becoming the most hated recruit in the Cal era. If we all, and media, didn't hype him up so much, his performance wouldn't sting so bad.

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

I have to wonder why Skal got the rep as being a top recruit to begin with. In the early games he did show a nice touch, and it was against some weak competition, but still D-1 competition. Were his HS games against very weak teams? I know the back to the basket thing is throwing him, but he's not showing the ability to rebound either, and is very slow to learn basic fundamentals. Seems like his weaknesses were either very well masked, or nobody was really looking closely.

 

[BostonCat2001]

you guys are looking at this all wrong. now self gets to be labeled a "great developer of talent" when in 3 years...diallo and bragg can dribble a basketball and run at the same time.

 

[docholiday51]

I have to wonder why Skal got the rep as being a top recruit to begin with. In the early games he did show a nice touch, and it was against some weak competition, but still D-1 competition. Were his HS games against very weak teams? I know the back to the basket thing is throwing him, but he's not showing the ability to rebound either, and is very slow to learn basic fundamentals. Seems like his weaknesses were either very well masked, or nobody was really looking closely.

He played on a 'team' put together by his handler for the sole purpose of giving him some venue to play in. I doubt there was much competition, structure or teaching of basic skills involved. He showed well in all-star games(which fooled many people evidently) he was injured part of the year before. We are to some degree playing a high school soph at this level and wanting to shovel him off to the NBA in about 4 months.

 

[jrpross]

Oh absolutely. I'm equally as excited for the same reasons. I do think this will be a top3 class for Cal from the start, and maybe top2.

"Athleticism" always worries, though. As does "Fundamentals". I feel like those never go hand-in-hand for a recruit. Like we'll have this athletic specimen but they are terrible shooters (MKG, Briscoe). And if we have good shooters, or rather "good fundamentals", they have poor athleticism and get burned often (Wiltjer).

That's all teams by the way, not just us. Funny how some of these recruiting buzz-words workout. I really don't think HS ball, or even AAU Ball will expose a top50 player's weakness. In a way, the strengths of that player shadow the weaknesses due to lack of good competition.

Or maybe the College game is just such a different animal.

Excited either way. But I do hope our fans dial back the expectations. That's how you get a situation like Skal where he's quickly becoming the most hated recruit in the Cal era. If we all, and media, didn't hype him up so much, his performance wouldn't sting so bad.

It seems to always work that way doesn't it? When an Andrew Wiggins, MKG, or Jaylen Brown comes along with otherworldly athleticism they can never shoot well. What is it with that?

 

[SilentsAreGolden]

jrpross, I'm guessing it's because they are so skilled and can get to the basket against their HS competition with such ease, why take jump shots? They haven't developed that skill yet.

 

[mj2k10]

I have to wonder why Skal got the rep as being a top recruit to begin with. In the early games he did show a nice touch, and it was against some weak competition, but still D-1 competition. Were his HS games against very weak teams? I know the back to the basket thing is throwing him, but he's not showing the ability to rebound either, and is very slow to learn basic fundamentals. Seems like his weaknesses were either very well masked, or nobody was really looking closely.

Camps and all-star games. He was matched against top competition, and looked better than almost any of them. But the format is always different for those- a lot of drills, a lot of one-on-one stuff, a lot of scrimmages of varying degrees of intensity.

You just never know for sure. People predicted that Skal would have some issues with the physicality of the game, but people predicted the same thing with AD. AD had no issues, Skal clearly has major issues. You get plenty of baseball players who rip the minors to shreds, then hit a wall at a certain level. Skal is one of those.

 

[Untouchables22]

Oh absolutely. I'm equally as excited for the same reasons. I do think this will be a top3 class for Cal from the start, and maybe top2.

"Athleticism" always worries, though. As does "Fundamentals". I feel like those never go hand-in-hand for a recruit. Like we'll have this athletic specimen but they are terrible shooters (MKG, Briscoe). And if we have good shooters, or rather "good fundamentals", they have poor athleticism and get burned often (Wiltjer).

That's all teams by the way, not just us. Funny how some of these recruiting buzz-words workout. I really don't think HS ball, or even AAU Ball will expose a top50 player's weakness. In a way, the strengths of that player shadow the weaknesses due to lack of good competition.

Or maybe the College game is just such a different animal.

Excited either way. But I do hope our fans dial back the expectations. That's how you get a situation like Skal where he's quickly becoming the most hated recruit in the Cal era. If we all, and media, didn't hype him up so much, his performance wouldn't sting so bad.

I think you have made some very good points in this thread and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But I would like to point out that there are some basketball skills that do translate from high school to college level basketball better then others and our class next year has several of these traits. The easiest basketball skill to translate is rebounding and both Bam and Gabriel are considered high level rebounders....(I have no clue about SKJ haven't read many evaluations of his game).....also typically if a player has a reputation for being an elite defender in high school that translates well to college because 75% of playing good man to man defense in college is effort and intensity. Fox is considered the best perimeter defender in the entire class and Gabriel also has a reputation for plus defense. Also Gabriel and Bam have considerable shot blocking talents which like rebounding translates from high school to college well typically. Finally another skill that seems to translate usually with pretty good frequency is driving ability and being an elite penetrator. Both Fox and Monk have that in spades. So yes there is a MASSIVE difference between high school and college levels of basketball and the Freshmen next year will have to learn how to co-exist in an offense and work on their offensive and defensive spacing which is a hard adjustment from high school but I wanted to point out our guys do some things VERY well that tend to translate from high school to college pretty well! Physically Fox, Monk, Bam and Gabriel (if he can play the 3) will be ready to compete at the college level on Day 1. SKJ I do have some physicality concerns about.

 

[CharlieT71059]

They seem to always choke on the big games

 

[JeffGoodmansVestigialTwin]

I think you have made some very good points in this thread and I agree with a lot of what you are saying. But I would like to point out that there are some basketball skills that do translate from high school to college level basketball better then others and our class next year has several of these traits. The easiest basketball skill to translate is rebounding and both Bam and Gabriel are considered high level rebounders....(I have no clue about SKJ haven't read many evaluations of his game).....also typically if a player has a reputation for being an elite defender in high school that translates well to college because 75% of playing good man to man defense in college is effort and intensity. Fox is considered the best perimeter defender in the entire class and Gabriel also has a reputation for plus defense. Also Gabriel and Bam have considerable shot blocking talents which like rebounding translates from high school to college well typically. Finally another skill that seems to translate usually with pretty good frequency is driving ability and being an elite penetrator. Both Fox and Monk have that in spades. So yes there is a MASSIVE difference between high school and college levels of basketball and the Freshmen next year will have to learn how to co-exist in an offense and work on their offensive and defensive spacing which is a hard adjustment from high school but I wanted to point out our guys do some things VERY well that tend to translate from high school to college pretty well! Physically Fox, Monk, Bam and Gabriel (if he can play the 3) will be ready to compete at the college level on Day 1. SKJ I do have some physicality concerns about.

I'm not saying SKJ won't need to adjust, but he is a very adept rebounder. Averages double digits against major competition. He's actually a pretty physical kid, but yes he will need to adjust college players but I think he will do well for what time he gets.

 

[Smashcat]

Fran Fraschilla ‏@franfraschilla 25s25 seconds ago
Haven't talked with Bill Self about this but I expect to see more of Carlton Bragg soon. Best combo of O & D among bigs besides Perry Ellis.

 

[bluescat92]

^^ It's why I really worry about fans here thinking next year's class is going to have no flaws, everyone is going to shoot 40%+ and won't have any problems adjusting.

We all thought Matthews was going to be the next coming of Artest on defense, Skal was mini-AD, Murray was the best PG Cal had in years (although, he could be) etc etc.

Don't really care how good the 2016 class is. I expect at least 1 or 2 UK players to have trouble adjusting, I expect SKJ to get virtually no minutes his first year. I expect defense lapses. I expect shooting % for most of them to drop a bit. I expect more grey hairs from Cal. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if we have a "Skal" next year.. someone who thinks they can play like they did in HS and just coast, and fans really turn on them.

HS basketball is not college basketball. Sounds like a no-brainer remark, but it eludes so many people here, even myself.

SKJ would start on this team and unless we get Bolden he will start next year.

Fans keep trying to downplay next years recruits for some reason (don't want to get their little hearts broke) but all five are studs. All three bigs can run the floor, defend and shoot. SKJ can hit the three as well.

Fox and Monk will be one of the top guard combos in collage basketball and the fastest. They will block more shots as guards then any two guards we have had in the past. They can sky.

 

[Untouchables22]

Also it's important to remember that while it's not always fair Coaches are judged by recruits by how their players perform in the NBA....Embid has had all kinds of problems, Cliff Alexander is the last guy off the bench in Portland, Thomas Robinson has been a flop for his draft position and Self's biggest success for big men Markeiff Morris is fighting with his coach and team in an effort to get traded because he can't get over his brother being traded away. Not exactly Cousins, Randle, Towns, Noel, Kanter, Jones, Patterson, and Davis levels of success.