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Christian expansion was already happening. It needed something to get it going full steam. Islam's on-going expansion was a good reason. The church's mission was no different than Islams. Both sought to convert the world. To say that isn't the case is misleading.
Charlemagne (pre-crusades) had visions of himself converting the world to Christians. He didn't really need any help from the Muslims.
Christianity was well established long before muhammed showed up. Muslims, acting as they do now, had taken control of Christian lands, specifically Jerusalem. Not a problem at first, but eventually once again, they began doing what they do now….killing anyone that didn’t convert to islam. Leaders of the Roman Catholic church were no not without fault.Christian expansion was already happening. It needed something to get it going full steam. Islam's on-going expansion was a good reason. The church's mission was no different than Islams. Both sought to convert the world. To say that isn't the case is misleading.
Thought that was Constantine?Charlemagne (pre-crusades) had visions of himself converting the world to Christians. He didn't really need any help from the Muslims.
Christianity was well established long before muhammed showed up. Muslims, acting as they do now, had taken control of Christian lands, specifically Jerusalem. Not a problem at first, but eventually once again, they began doing what they do now….killing anyone that didn’t convert to islam. Leaders of the Roman Catholic church were no not without fault.
The church was no longer under the authority of one pope. Urban (I think) wanted to unite the four separate groups. The muslim abuse of Christians was, indeed, a good excuse to call the troops and unite the church.
I guess I come across wrong,I didn't mean they didn't want to gain power or convert people.
Thought that was Constantine?
And Europe was dealing with the Middle East long before Christianity. Middle East has been a thorn in the side of Europe dating back to BC. I just think undermining the Crusades to project it as a counter assault to the Muslim expansion is misleading. Technically, going back to 315 A.D, Christianity was starting it's expansion by killing thousands upon thousands of Pagans.
So if I had to say, yeah, Muslims are waaaay more violent and still haven't evolved like Christianity today. But they are also about 500 to 600 years behind Christianity too. So it remains to still be seen if Islam will evolve. I highly doubt it though.
Was he brought into the world by a virgin, or just a young girl who got knocked up?
One is part of a meta-narrative and the other is not.Is it more unfathomable that a man was born to a virgin or that human life originated from nothing? Both are miraculous.
One is part of a meta-narrative and the other is not.
You guys always get caught up in characters (hitler, stalin, charlemagne, constantine, preachers, people, etc). It's a diversion.
It still boils down to, was Jesus God's son? Did He die and rise from the dead?
The rest is noise.
Is it more unfathomable that a man was born to a virgin or that human life originated from nothing? Both are miraculous.
The reason we don't all worship the Sun today is, it is free, there in no profit margin for worshipping the Sun.
i don't know if this is a Tommy Original, but I'm stealing it.
A couple of posters have posed a question that I've yet to see answered: a Muslim child is indoctrinated and is told there is no other religion that Islam, and all others must be conquered or their followers wiped from the face of the Earth. This child has never, not once, been told the Christian story of Jesus and how he MUST be "saved". This child grows into an adult and still yet never hears the Christian gospel; this person then dies at some point. Does this person automatically go to hell? Does a person raised on a remote island who never even KNOWS of Christianity go to hell upon their death?
These scenarios defy logic, IMO.
I've also not seen one believer respond to my question of the ancient, pre-Christ stories of, at least 4 "virgin births". ...........
Weaver,
If you think, or sometimes think, sometimes don't, sometimes feel, sometimes don't feel like you are a Christian, then you aren't.
I don't know where you live, but I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with you for as long as you would like to ask questions and discuss those topics.
I do not ever discuss anything of a religious nature.its a zero sum game.Weaver,
If you think, or sometimes think, sometimes don't, sometimes feel, sometimes don't feel like you are a Christian, then you aren't.
I don't know where you live, but I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with you for as long as you would like to ask questions and discuss those topics.
A couple of posters have posed a question that I've yet to see answered: a Muslim child is indoctrinated and is told there is no other religion that Islam, and all others must be conquered or their followers wiped from the face of the Earth. This child has never, not once, been told the Christian story of Jesus and how he MUST be "saved". This child grows into an adult and still yet never hears the Christian gospel; this person then dies at some point. Does this person automatically go to hell? Does a person raised on a remote island who never even KNOWS of Christianity go to hell upon their death?
These scenarios defy logic, IMO.
I've also not seen one believer respond to my question of the ancient, pre-Christ stories of, at least 4 "virgin births". ...........
Charlemagne did too. Self-narcissist who was hell bent using power and money to spread his idea of Christianity.
False. I believe that MORE than a person believes everything in the bible to be a fact. I believe that more than any of you believe there is a god.
I don't require faith that the Sun will come up tomorrow. Hell, I'd bet my bottom dollar it will. Come what may. Faith is required in the absence of evidence and there is plenty of evidence that says it will be here. Experience says it will arrive too soon.
Willful ignorance would be for me to claim the Sun won't come up tomorrow, and then profess to have faith I am correct.
You guys always get caught up in characters (hitler, stalin, charlemagne, constantine, preachers, people, etc). It's a diversion.
It still boils down to, was Jesus God's son? Did He die and rise from the dead?
The rest is noise.
Aren't Jesus and God the same person? If he was Gods son... Then there are two "Gods?"
Is that right ?
A couple of posters have posed a question that I've yet to see answered: a Muslim child is indoctrinated and is told there is no other religion that Islam, and all others must be conquered or their followers wiped from the face of the Earth. This child has never, not once, been told the Christian story of Jesus and how he MUST be "saved". This child grows into an adult and still yet never hears the Christian gospel; this person then dies at some point. Does this person automatically go to hell? Does a person raised on a remote island who never even KNOWS of Christianity go to hell upon their death?
These scenarios defy logic, IMO.
I've also not seen one believer respond to my question of the ancient, pre-Christ stories of, at least 4 "virgin births". ...........
You are all wrong. There is no way to create "something" from absolute nothing no matter how twisted the physics nor tortured the spontaneously created "virtual particles" are imagined, nor is there some omnipotent creator mixing batches of unnameable potions to create us all just so he can demand his ransom or curse our souls.Both sides agree that the entire universe was created from nothing.
You are all wrong. There is no way to create "something" from absolute nothing no matter how twisted the physics nor tortured the spontaneously created "virtual particles" are imagined, nor is there some omnipotent creator mixing batches of unnameable potions to create us all just so he can demand his ransom or curse our souls.
Those of you that want to argue physics and spontaneous creation are and forever will be trapped even in explaining the locale of your spontaneity. You are to have a spontaneous creation of some magical particle that you might as well call god then how would you even explain the location the particle spontaneously appeared in? Where did that come from? And please, if Stephen Hawking cannot explain satisfactorily then shut up and don't condescend us all with your googled butchering of his inadequate tap dancings.
When you have a question with no answer then you examine the question itself. Or more precisely the premise. The assumption on both sides is that "something" was created. That is flawed. If you accept that as Sagan's The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be suggests then there is no need for a beginning, no magical engine of creation that bursts into being from absolute nowhere in absolute nothing. A multiplication from zero. Instead there is an endless churning and remixing... an endless ocean of eternally marching numbers in all possible combination of all possible expressions... then and only then order emerges from what would otherwise appear to be chaotic and incomprehensible. A multiverse of all things and all possible variations of all things. A circle with the bottom pulled into a vortex that begins exactly as it ended, and so on for all time.
The Big Bang did happen. The universe is expanding and not just expanding but speeding up in that expansion and that will lead to an inevitable contraction. But you mistake that and name it god when really it's only one numerical expression in an endless parade of others to follow. It is not god because there is no god unless you want to pick out a random number and declare it so. We did not begin at nothing because nothing began.
And man made global warming is a crock of shit.
I'll take a shot at these tough questions, and they are tough..... as a Christian I think Jesus was God on earth. He lived, died, and rose with witnesses who were willing to die telling the story. Nobody knows where His body is. He sent people out to tell the story. The story isn't being told well enough in the world, but has been told. I think even a person on a remote island has to recognize there is a God of some sort.
I believe God is about redeeming humanity to Himself. I guess we have to leave the results of all that to Him.
Christians just have to do their part (which we aren't), however some stories and biographies of Christian missionaries are some pretty good ones. The spread of Christianity is pretty busy in China right now, I've been reading the same among nations where Islam is prevalent. Some muslims are becoming disallusioned with Islam nowadays.
Why was the earliest written document written 40 years after his death...and the next earliest one 60 years...then a couple were even over 100 years?
Why was the earliest written document written 40 years after his death...and the next earliest one 60 years...then a couple were even over 100 years?