Do you go to Church?
- Thread starter Catfan in Tn.
- Start date
I guess I come across wrong,I didn't mean they didn't want to gain power or convert people.
But even then I imagine the Muslims played a part in his view. His grandfather stopped the furthest encroachment of Islam into Europe at the battle of Tours.
Christianity was well established long before muhammed showed up. Muslims, acting as they do now, had taken control of Christian lands, specifically Jerusalem. Not a problem at first, but eventually once again, they began doing what they do now….killing anyone that didn’t convert to islam. Leaders of the Roman Catholic church were no not without fault.
The church was no longer under the authority of one pope. Urban (I think) wanted to unite the four separate groups. The muslim abuse of Christians was, indeed, a good excuse to call the troops and unite the church.
And Europe was dealing with the Middle East long before Christianity. Middle East has been a thorn in the side of Europe dating back to BC. I just think undermining the Crusades to project it as a counter assault to the Muslim expansion is misleading. Technically, going back to 315 A.D, Christianity was starting it's expansion by killing thousands upon thousands of Pagans.
So if I had to say, yeah, Muslims are waaaay more violent and still haven't evolved like Christianity today. But they are also about 500 to 600 years behind Christianity too. So it remains to still be seen if Islam will evolve. I highly doubt it though.
Charlemagne did too. Self-narcissist who was hell bent using power and money to spread his idea of Christianity.
As has oft been said, the only problem with Christianity is that no one has ever really done it.
Just when you think this thread is going to die then somebody lifts the rock off the cave then paints a bunch of strange patterns on eggs that are then secreted away so the children have to search for them. Funny thing is they insist the eggs come from rabbits which is an entirely random thing for a mammal to do but in this context I guess it makes perfects sense. An egg symbolizes some dude being reincarnated in a cave so therefore they have to be painted so children can find them. Like a little prehistoric happy meal. Got to hook them early if you want them to believe in the Hamburgler.
One is part of a meta-narrative and the other is not.
Plus, there are plenty of reasons not to trust the claims of the narratives describing Jesus' divinity. We don't even know who wrote the Gospels. We have no originals and there are thousands of textual variants among the surviving manuscripts we do have. Hell, about half of Paul's letters are forgeries. And this is just starting this discussion, which I won't have time to participate in today.
Excellent point. Jesus is the Son of God. Was born of the virgin Mary, did die on the cross and did raise again after 3 days. That is the message. Matters not others have unbelief of my belief. Will never matter. Great post.
This is the absolute dumbest argument anyone can make about the topic. The universe couldn't possibly spring forth from nothing, but a supernatural being capable of creating the entire universe, did.
At least early man worshipped the Sun. Something real and tangible. The reason we don't all worship the Sun today is, it is free, there in no profit margin for worshipping the Sun.
i don't know if this is a Tommy Original, but I'm stealing it.
It is, and feel free.
Both sides agree that the entire universe was created from nothing. One side thinks it is due to highly predictable physical laws of nature, and the other side thinks a "presence" created the matter required to populate the universe as we know it.
Both sides are also Atheists. One side believes in just one extra god.
A couple of posters have posed a question that I've yet to see answered: a Muslim child is indoctrinated and is told there is no other religion that Islam, and all others must be conquered or their followers wiped from the face of the Earth. This child has never, not once, been told the Christian story of Jesus and how he MUST be "saved". This child grows into an adult and still yet never hears the Christian gospel; this person then dies at some point. Does this person automatically go to hell? Does a person raised on a remote island who never even KNOWS of Christianity go to hell upon their death?
These scenarios defy logic, IMO.
I've also not seen one believer respond to my question of the ancient, pre-Christ stories of, at least 4 "virgin births". ...........
These scenarios defy logic, IMO.
I've also not seen one believer respond to my question of the ancient, pre-Christ stories of, at least 4 "virgin births". ...........
Difficult question to answer here, Too much typing for me on this phone.
Short answer is no the child doesn't go to hell.
Second question
I don't remember any of the other three so I can't offer any answers. Sorry
Why bother? If you were really concerned about it you would read the Bible with an open mind and draw your own conclusions. As it is, trying to explain it would be like trying to describe the color blue to a blind man.
Willy Im begging ya dude...PLEASE ditch Aileen! That has to be the creepiest avatar on the planet. lol
Its suppose to be overcast, raining and flashfloods tomorrow. What If you dont see the sun did it come up If theres no evidence?
Aren't Jesus and God the same person? If he was Gods son... Then there are two "Gods?"
Is that right ?
You're asking about the trinity. It's kind of a mystery as I understand it. Kinda both. God wearing 3 hats or something along those lines, I would say.
I'll take a shot at these tough questions, and they are tough..... as a Christian I think Jesus was God on earth. He lived, died, and rose with witnesses who were willing to die telling the story. Nobody knows where His body is. He sent people out to tell the story. The story isn't being told well enough in the world, but has been told. I think even a person on a remote island has to recognize there is a God of some sort.
I believe God is about redeeming humanity to Himself. I guess we have to leave the results of all that to Him.
Christians just have to do their part (which we aren't), however some stories and biographies of Christian missionaries are some pretty good ones. The spread of Christianity is pretty busy in China right now, I've been reading the same among nations where Islam is prevalent. Some muslims are becoming disallusioned with Islam nowadays.
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You are all wrong. There is no way to create "something" from absolute nothing no matter how twisted the physics nor tortured the spontaneously created "virtual particles" are imagined, nor is there some omnipotent creator mixing batches of unnameable potions to create us all just so he can demand his ransom or curse our souls.
Those of you that want to argue physics and spontaneous creation are and forever will be trapped even in explaining the locale of your spontaneity. You are to have a spontaneous creation of some magical particle that you might as well call god then how would you even explain the location the particle spontaneously appeared in? Where did that come from? And please, if Stephen Hawking cannot explain satisfactorily then shut up and don't condescend us all with your googled butchering of his inadequate tap dancings.
When you have a question with no answer then you examine the question itself. Or more precisely the premise. The assumption on both sides is that "something" was created. That is flawed. If you accept that as Sagan's The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be suggests then there is no need for a beginning, no magical engine of creation that bursts into being from absolute nowhere in absolute nothing. A multiplication from zero. Instead there is an endless churning and remixing... an endless ocean of eternally marching numbers in all possible combination of all possible expressions... then and only then order emerges from what would otherwise appear to be chaotic and incomprehensible. A multiverse of all things and all possible variations of all things. A circle with the bottom pulled into a vortex that begins exactly as it ended, and so on for all time.
The Big Bang did happen. The universe is expanding and not just expanding but speeding up in that expansion and that will lead to an inevitable contraction. But you mistake that and name it god when really it's only one numerical expression in an endless parade of others to follow. It is not god because there is no god unless you want to pick out a random number and declare it so. We did not begin at nothing because nothing began.
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If you came up with all of that from what I wrote, then you are the one that needs to shut up and not be condescending. I clearly stated what both sides BELIEVE. I never made a statement about the correctness of those beliefs in that post.
Was just pointing out the similarities between the two beliefs. I don't for one second believe the entire universe exploded from a pinpoint. If you believe that, then you believe supernatural crap.
I'm OK with saying I don't know how the universe came to be. I don't need gods or multiverses or dark matter to make me feel at ease. And man made global warming is a crock of shit.
I smell a spin-off threeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaad!!!1!121
Why was the earliest written document written 40 years after his death...and the next earliest one 60 years...then a couple were even over 100 years?
My guess is that they were too busy making history to stop and write about it.
I guess what I am trying to say is...the NT specifically references the Resurrection of Jesus (which is pretty much the biggest thing in Christianity...what makes it "stick" for so many) in four locations only. These are the four, listed in order
The passage in 1 Corinthians 15 (which was written around CE (christian era)
Matthew (written around 80 CE)
Luke (written around 85 CE)
and finally John...wirten around 90-100 CE
^These are even accepted as acceptable timelines by Christian and Catholic scholars.
So it is kind of a dilemma? Some of us with questions or doubts face when we try to look at these matters responsibly.
Mark cannot be included as "proof" of the resurrection because even Christian Scholars concede that the resurrection story found there (Mark 16:9-20) is a much later addition. The gospel (Marks) originally ended with the women finding only an empty tomb in verse 16:8 (which is is mysterious so to speak...but no conclusive proof of a resurrection. So it is interesting isnt it? That Mark..the FIRST gospel to be written did not include a post-resurrection appearance of Jesus.
Matthews gospel...of the resurrection is at LEAST five decades after the fact. FIVE decades later. John..the latest was written 6-7 decades later. So if we are looking at this objectively ..we have to observe the fact that at least 25 years separate the alleged resurrection from the first written documentation of it (Corinthians) and 50 or more years separate the alleged resurrection from the first narrative or story to speak of it.
And these are all just questions i honestly have had over the past couple years since i have started doubting it all
So...God works out this plan to become human, live to adulthood, then resurrect in bodily form so all the human race can be saved from eternal damnation? If such a thing did happen...would it not be reasonably to say that this is the most important even in all of human history?
That being said...all we have are these "gospels" which have been confirmed to be decades after the supposed resurrection. I dont know about you, but if there is a God...he surely would not have sub par intelligence right? Did it not occur to God/Jesus to show up to Caiphas and the other religious leaders be be like "Well you played your parts well but now you can see...I am back and everything I told you was true. Now sit down and listen"
Or maybe go to Pilates home/area...whatever and be like "Hey man, not here for retribution , You just did what I knew you would, but how about going to get the scribes toether I have some things that need to be said...and recorded to be passed down to future generations. But...not of that happened. Instead, he left it to the hands of people who played a 4 plus decade long game of telephone.
Another thing that gets me...is how CRUEL the God in the OT is...but I will digress with all of that. People will say "well that is the old god...the OT is now what we follow and the NT (jesus christ) is the light..the way...etc etc. Nevermind that nobody can really justify or...explain all the cruel things that happened in the OT..but thats fine. I will roll with it.
So the NT...the Gentle God...In the acts of the apostles, Chapter 5 ...ever read it?
Here is what happens..A congretional meeting
Sermon- "Jesus dies for your sins, repent therefore!
In the midst of all this "repent therefore" sermon, peter is losing his $hit and working himself into a frenxy. His message is about the love of God and the horrible things Jesus suffered through, so as to reconcile man to God...die for our sins.
So he sees Ananias walk in and remembers looking over the offering ledger (where you offer money over to the church/God) Ananias and his wife had sold their house for 45,000 "sheckles" (for lack of a better term) and have it to the church (lol) But Asaph...their "realtor" who was also present started spouting off and said "They sold their house for 47,000 NOT 45,000. Peter gets pissed and says Satan possessed them to "keep money from the Lord" blah blah b lah.
So peter calls him a liar
"While you still owned the land, wasn't it yours to keep, and after you had sold it wasn't the money yours to do with as you liked? What put this scheme into your mind? You have been lying not to men, but to God.'" So guess what happens? Ananias DROPS DEAD...drops dead. donzo. Gone...death. A little while later his wife comes in, Peter confronts her...she admits...and guess what? Then she drops dead to lol.
So...Jesus died for their sins? but somehow God decided that lying about ones finances is a Capitol Crime deserving Death...Uh...Ok :/
OT-God. There was a guy..david who God really liked. This man committed adultery, killed teh husband and married the women. So God sent a prophet to tell the man that God was going to kill his innocent infant for Davids Crimes. Commit adultery and murder? An innocent baby dies...lie about money? you die..
Got it.
Not to mention the multiple genocides, multiple infanticides, sendingpeople off to slavery who didn't pay him any attention...so on and so forth.
So basically...we have God who becomes a virgin human sacrifice (Jesus) so that he could appease himself for the sins committed by the people he created (Adam and Eve) with a sin-birth-defect.
Just seems so...strange to me when you actually put it all out there and think about it.
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