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The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

Well if you think a bomb shelter would protect you from the negative impacts of a world war or nuclear war, you are an idiot. If you think the only step “concerned” people would take would be constructing a bomb shelter far removed from any coasts, strategic target or any place that has ever been bombed in recorded history, again you are an idiot.

Measuring levels of concern by the number of people building bomb shelters, and not those using logic and reason, is idiotic.
Nothing is going to protect fully from nuke war. It's about taking steps to survive. What other personal steps do anything?

Somehow equating supporting Ukraine with a higher risk of nuke war and thus causing higher concern isn't logical. Favoring appeasement is worse as it encourages further aggression until that is confronted.
 
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Biden says the US is totally supportive of Israel. Why no complaints here of the money we give them? Just a territorial dispute there. 4000 miles away. Who gives an ish?
 
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Somehow equating supporting Ukraine with a higher risk of nuke war and thus causing higher concern isn't logical. Favoring appeasement is worse as it encourages further aggression until that is confronted.

(1) Higher concerns do not only equate to nukes.
(2) There is no “appeasement” at this point. There can be negotiated resolution. Americans sitting on their couches talking about confrontation is rich.
(3) It’s odd to see someone post about Putin’s war crimes and about the man being evil, but denying that an escalation of war and more and more US involvement does not increase concern of nukes being used.
 
Biden says the US is totally supportive of Israel. Why no complaints here of the money we give them? Just a territorial dispute there. 4000 miles away. Who gives an ish?


This thread is about Ukraine. But every single dollar of foreign assistance should be cut off by congress until the invasion at the southern border of the United States is stopped.

Problem will be fixed quickly if the MIC laundering operation is slowed down.
 
This thread is about Ukraine. But every single dollar of foreign assistance should be cut off by congress until the invasion at the southern border of the United States is stopped.

Problem will be fixed quickly if the MIC laundering operation is slowed down.
That's complete honesty. Bring home all troops. Get out of NATO. Gotcha.
 
(1) Higher concerns do not only equate to nukes.
(2) There is no “appeasement” at this point. There can be negotiated resolution. Americans sitting on their couches talking about confrontation is rich.
(3) It’s odd to see someone post about Putin’s war crimes and about the man being evil, but denying that an escalation of war and more and more US involvement does not increase concern of nukes being used.
1. Yet nukes are stated constantly by the putinistas as THE prime stop Ukraine support argument.
2. True. It happens as soon as we commit to stop supporting Ukraine. Anything less than Putin out of Ukraine as a negotiated settlement is appeasement.
3. I don't think I've stated the former, so take that up with someone else. But agree it's likely true. I don't see more & more US involvement but maintaining of it. Tell us your nuke use concern level on zero to 100 scale. Mine's a 0.3.
 
1. Yet nukes are stated constantly by the putinistas as THE prime stop Ukraine support argument.
2. True. It happens as soon as we commit to stop supporting Ukraine. Anything less than Putin out of Ukraine as a negotiated settlement is appeasement.
3. I don't think I've stated the former, so take that up with someone else. But agree it's likely true. I don't see more & more US involvement but maintaining of it. Tell us your nuke use concern level on zero to 100 scale. Mine's a 0.3.
(1) I would not know
(2) We disagree. A compromised resolution save lives, protects us and NATO and provides a pathway for Ukraine to enter NATO in a common sense manner, not a gun to the head explanation. Putin is not appeased and has been greatly damaged. End this war and set a stage that should have, in some fashion, been set prior to the war. We knew this was coming. Whether we baited it or not, we did not take the proper precautions to preclude it.
(3) I think it is relatively low, but much higher than it was before this war and grows as the war continues and our involvement escalates.
 
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(1) I would not know
(2) We disagree. A compromised resolution save lives, protects us and NATO and provides a pathway for Ukraine to enter NATO in a common sense manner, not a gun to the head explanation. Putin is not appeased and has been greatly damaged. End this war and set a stage that should have, in some fashion, been set prior to the war. We knew this was coming. Whether we baited it or not, we did not take the proper precautions to preclude it.
(3) I think it is relatively low, but much higher than it was before this war and grows as the war continues and our involvement escalates.
1. Read this thread over.
2. Specifically, what is a compromised resolution that both parties would accept? Easy to say w/o a concrete plan.
3. So much higher can mean 1/1000 chance than 1/10,000 chance. Not worth a mention imo. Escalation means accelerating. Not at all happening.
 
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1. Read this thread over.
2. Specifically, what is a compromised resolution that both parties would accept? Easy to say w/o a concrete plan.
3. So much higher can mean 1/1000 chance than 1/10,000 chance. Not worth a mention imo. Escalation means accelerating. Not at all happening.
(2) Ukraine cedes part of the Donbas to Russia. Ukraine will do that if NATO tells it to. Ukraine falls without NATO. The pathway to NATO membership would then be expedited for Ukraine. This is not Afghanistan. I don’t see Russia walking away and don’t see Ukraine forcing it out. This war is enhancing the relationship between Russia and China and some others. Tell me the US’s interest in the Donbas?
 
(2) Ukraine cedes part of the Donbas to Russia. Ukraine will do that if NATO tells it to. Ukraine falls without NATO. The pathway to NATO membership would then be expedited for Ukraine. This is not Afghanistan. I don’t see Russia walking away and don’t see Ukraine forcing it out. This war is enhancing the relationship between Russia and China and some others. Tell me the US’s interest in the Donbas?
Thanks. Maybe. Russia is again emboldened that aggression pays. At least with that Ukraine has access to the Sea of Azov and has Crimea with that plan.
 
Thanks. Maybe. Russia is again emboldened that aggression pays. At least with that Ukraine has access to the Sea of Azov and has Crimea with that plan.
Frankly, if Ukraine regains all occupied territories, they will have a slow bleeding sore with some areas being of a Russian majority.
 
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Frankly, if Ukraine regains all occupied territories, they will have a slow bleeding sore with some areas being of a Russian majority.
I don't agree. I think they'd be fine being part of U. They know the benefits of even corrupt freedom. Sure they accepted when Russia took over their areas, but doubt they think they're in a better place. But JMO.

Don't know there answer, but wonder how much the Russian Language has been eradicated from the areas Ukraine control.
 
1. Yet nukes are stated constantly by the putinistas as THE prime stop Ukraine support argument.
2. True. It happens as soon as we commit to stop supporting Ukraine. Anything less than Putin out of Ukraine as a negotiated settlement is appeasement.
3. I don't think I've stated the former, so take that up with someone else. But agree it's likely true. I don't see more & more US involvement but maintaining of it. Tell us your nuke use concern level on zero to 100 scale. Mine's a 0.3.

Somehow you don't seem to understand the word appeasement.

There is a war going on. Any negotiated settlement of peace or total capitulation (loss) is not appeasement old top.

Now, if we said, here Russia, here is half of Poland to stop fighting in Ukraine, THAT would be appeasement.

Not a scholar of ww2, are you?
 
Somehow you don't seem to understand the word appeasement.

There is a war going on. Any negotiated settlement of peace or total capitulation (loss) is not appeasement old top.

Now, if we said, here Russia, here is half of Poland to stop fighting in Ukraine, THAT would be appeasement.

Not a scholar of ww2, are you?

You know, the sudentenland, Austria, and the like?

They thought they could 'APPEASE' Hitler by giving him what he was demanding to PREVENT war.

Good lord, no wonder no one here takes you seriously.
 
Comparing Putin to Hitler is really something.
Suggesting that a government with a Jewish President and Prime Minister is rife with Nazi’s, is really something, too.

Putin doesn’t have the totalitarian control possessed by Hitler or Stalin, yet, but he’s working on it.
 
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Why does Belarus drink on the “I can **** with him juice” regarding ANY NATO country but especially Poland. Poland is itching and would absolutely rout Wagner and the 15 Belarus troops. I mean, let’s be serious here. Belarus might have the 3rd best army the second ANY NATO country crosses the border. They are getting trained by a freaking PMC. LMAO


And no, the nukes Russia supposedly gave them aren’t stopping shit if NATO wanted that ass. They would be shot down, over Belarus mind you and than our VA class subs would end whomever wanted the smoke.
 
Suggesting that a government with a Jewish President and Prime Minister is rife with Nazi’s, is really something, too.

Putin doesn’t have the totalitarian control possessed by Hitler or Stalin, yet, but he’s working on it.
Putin is a puss. He doesn’t want to die. Could you see him shooting himself like Hitler? Me either. He likes his lavish life too much. Plus he’s got a family to worry about. I would call him on every single one of his bluffs because that’s exactly what they are, bluffs. You think China would let him set off a nuke? Lol. The entire world would be against Russia and China.


I’m not saying you said or think he would. Just for the nuclear clowns. Been reading this thread since the first one. This stuff really interest me.
 
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If you want to keep the Southern border open, then yeah.
I have said this before myself. We should threaten to pull all of our troops out of every area in the world unless those countries/areas agree to pay us for being there, or, at least foot half of the bill. For those that don't, we just move our troops out and back to the US, Then, start moving units to areas designated/set up for operations supporting border patrol to stop the invasion there. We could easily place units at the border for a few months rotational operations to augment the border patrol. I would bet that many border landowners would sell some of their land to the US Army/government to build field billeting to house and feed these troops.
 
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I have said this before myself. We should threaten to pull all of our troops out of every area in the world unless those countries/areas agree to pay us for being there. At least foot half of the bill.

Taiwan would call you, Britain,
Poland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Finland would raise you, and the Germans would fold.
 
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Somehow you don't seem to understand the word appeasement.

There is a war going on. Any negotiated settlement of peace or total capitulation (loss) is not appeasement old top.

Now, if we said, here Russia, here is half of Poland to stop fighting in Ukraine, THAT would be appeasement.

Not a scholar of ww2, are you?
If you accept loss of territory to end the fighting, it's appeasing.
 
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If you accept loss of territory to end the fighting, it's appeasing.
Don’t you think ultimately that is going to have to be the answer though? It doesn’t seem Ukraine is going to be able to move Russia completely out without major boots on the ground from NATO.
 
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I have said this before myself. We should threaten to pull all of our troops out of every area in the world unless those countries/areas agree to pay us for being there, or, at least foot half of the bill.
Our allies do contribute funding to help defray the costs of our overseas bases. The percentage varies by country, but from what I've seen, the calculations don't include such things like free rent/land use and tax waivers, so the given percentages understate foreign contributions.
 
Our allies do contribute funding to help defray the costs of our overseas bases. The percentage varies by country, but from what I've seen, the calculations don't include such things like free rent/land use and tax waivers, so the given percentages understate foreign contributions.
I don't know about other countries except the ones I was stationed/worked in and can tell you they make quite a bit of money off of land use and damage to land/properties done by the US military. Not sure about the free rent or tax waivers posted above. As far as funding goes, it is a very low percentage compared to what we spend.
 
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I don't know about other countries except the ones I was stationed/worked in and can tell you they make quite a bit of money off of land use and damage to land/properties done by the US military. Not sure about the free rent or tax waivers posted above.
Umm, they could be using the land the military base occupies for something else. It's called an opportunity cost. We also don't pay rent for any of the land or buildings. These are fairly straightforward, simple concepts.

And of course, if we damage property outside of the base, we should pay for it.
 
This was 2020 spending in NATO. I am not just talking about NATO either. We are in far more areas around the world and spend a lot of money to be there. Below numbers in the millions.
  • United States - 811,140
  • United Kingdom - 72,765
  • Germany - 64,785
  • France - 58,729
  • Italy - 29,763
  • Canada - 26,523
  • Spain - 14,875
  • Netherlands - 14,378
  • Poland - 13,798
  • Turkey - 13,462
 
Umm, they could be using the land the military base occupies for something else. It's called an opportunity cost. We also don't pay rent for any of the land or buildings. These are fairly straightforward, simple concepts.

And of course, if we damage property outside of the base, we should pay for it.
They are considered US soil at the time almost like embassies. But I think we are playing dollars against peanuts here. I still maintain as did Trump that some NATO countries could do more.

As far as damage to property I agree but, it is a stiff amount when it happens. Well more than they would charge their own.
 
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Don’t you think ultimately that is going to have to be the answer though? It doesn’t seem Ukraine is going to be able to move Russia completely out without major boots on the ground from NATO.
The way things are going, yes.
 
This was 2020 spending in NATO. I am not just talking about NATO either. We are in far more areas around the world and spend a lot of money to be there. Below numbers in the millions.
  • United States - 811,140
  • United Kingdom - 72,765
  • Germany - 64,785
  • France - 58,729
  • Italy - 29,763
  • Canada - 26,523
  • Spain - 14,875
  • Netherlands - 14,378
  • Poland - 13,798
  • Turkey - 13,462
Honestly surprised Germany is that high considering how they weren’t meeting their NATO obligations during Trump’s term (they’re obviously the largest economy in Europe, so
maybe that accounts for it).
 
Biden says the US is totally supportive of Israel. Why no complaints here of the money we give them? Just a territorial dispute there. 4000 miles away. Who gives an ish?

We SHOULD normalize how we deal w/Israel - I will support you on that

I support their autonomy - but I also believe we've become too entangled in military conflicts that seem designed to weaken or usurp other regional powers to Israels benefit

Color revolutions in Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, and military action to destabilize Syria, Iraq & others --

I just seems like we've been the ones doing a lot of dirty work for Israel - actions that in no way benefited the US , and promoting resentment and ideological blowback

I THINK we handle loans to Israel differently than we do for others as well

Its been years but i remember reading that our Govt/State Dept doesn't ask for how the loaned money will be used - and - i THINK we forego any effort to seek remittance or loan payback?

Someone can check me on that last bit -i remember stumbling across that info when working on my masters so that's been a while ---- circa 2008ish

I think we should remind the world that we WOULD defend Israel if they were attacked

BUT - we should simultaneously start drawing down our military presence in the ME

**** Hope my post is taken in good candor as it was intended to be --- the US needs a strategic reset & our military needs a break
 
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1. Read this thread over.
2. Specifically, what is a compromised resolution that both parties would accept? Easy to say w/o a concrete plan.
3. So much higher can mean 1/1000 chance than 1/10,000 chance. Not worth a mention imo. Escalation means accelerating. Not at all happening.


Respectfully - I believe returning to the Minsk Agreement would be a viable path towards ceasefire

Minsk Agreement in English
 
Thanks.

Sure. Ukraine has control over all of its territory & Russia out.


I would be ok with that as a proposed clause IF NATO removes all military resources, the US stops pumping weapons into UKR & the newly peaceful region retains national/local control of banks & cultural institutions

West needs to get off the war footing & acknowledge that our string of post-9-11 conflicts and usurping leaders/governments across Eurasia has an impact on how other cultures and nations are viewing our current role in the slavic conflict


But - this FEELS like a group that won't be negotiating together any time soon


Have we confirmed that you are NOT a bad-ass drummer, VanHalen?

If you've been holding out on me all this time & you're an accomplished musician --- I will be gravely disappointed

PSS - odd fact --- when I see your profile name I picture you to look exactly like the CDC/Govt COTAR (rep to federal contractors) that was over my Northrop work in Atlanta

so - i have.all that going for me
 
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