The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[hmt5000]

What do you think are the interests and well-being of the US?

Our borders, our railways, our roads and bridges, upgrading our energy grid, finishing and upgrading pipelines, moving industry back to the US and being able to put astronauts into space without having to ask our mortal enemies, the Russians, for a ride to the international space station.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Pax Americana

Maybe you'll post something from a non-radical, propagandist, anti-western shill. Well, probably not, maybe thats just how you roll.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

And who is the arbitrer of that besides those opposed to spending any more on Ukraine?

Let’s not pretend that we cannot have a process and even a debate about whether a foreign war benefits the United States and to what extent. Please don’t tell us you support supporting a war that benefits the United States and its taxpayers in no way. That is not possible.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

That isn't exactly what was said. They said there is no guarantee as part of the AUKUS deal. You love to leave out certain facts to support your position.

Wow. You sure showed him.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

What do you think are the interests and well-being of the US?

Again, it appears the zealous advocates of the war don’t want accountability. Makes you appear to be the Warhawk others have accused you of being.

 

[Catemus]

Our borders, our railways, our roads and bridges, upgrading our energy grid, finishing and upgrading pipelines, moving industry back to the US and being able to put astronauts into space without having to ask our mortal enemies, the Russians, for a ride to the international space station.

We don’t use the Russians’ shuttle anymore. SpaceX has taken over those duties.

I agree heartily with your other points. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it always, our borders are the greatest threat to our continuation as a sovereign nation. It’s hard to accept the incompetence of both parties regarding this issue. There seems to be such an easy fix, put our military on the border.

You didn’t mention our standing on the global stage. We are the big dog and China has suddenly become our main rival. Russia’s government has rotted from the inside out and Ukraine has exposed Russia as a second rate player on the world stage.

Why we have allowed China to emerge so strong is beyond me. They are a communist state that has predictably devolved into a totalitarian dictatorship. All socialist and communist states follow the same path to closed societies ruled by one man. I sometimes think it might be an inherent human trait, biological even because it happens so frequently.

The US is a remarkable exception to the patterns followed by most societies historically. Turbulent democracy has made us the strongest, wealthiest and most innovative nation ever to exist. We gain strength from our internal conflicts.

Many signs are pointing to a new Cold War between the East and West. We must maintain the strong standing that we’ve developed since WWII. The last thing we should do is to abdicate our role as the earth’s only superpower.

 

[Catemus]

Again, it appears the zealous advocates of the war don’t want accountability. Makes you appear to be the Warhawk others have accused you of being.

I readily accept the label Warhawk. I’ve never denied it. Try again with your insults, poopyhead.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

I readily accept the label Warhawk. I’ve never denied it.

How many people here are surprised?

 

[vhcat70]

Let’s not pretend that we cannot have a process and even a debate about whether a foreign war benefits the United States and to what extent. Please don’t tell us you support supporting a war that benefits the United States and its taxpayers in no way. That is not possible.

First YOU say we can have a debate & then YOU say we can't support Russia's War on Ukraine because YOUR position there is no benefit to the US in it. Now where is there a debate possible in that? YOU'VE made the decision alone; i.e., you're the sole arbitrer. LMAO.

 

[vhcat70]

Our borders, our railways, our roads and bridges, upgrading our energy grid, finishing and upgrading pipelines, moving industry back to the US and being able to put astronauts into space without having to ask our mortal enemies, the Russians, for a ride to the international space station.

Got it. Bring our Navy back to home ports & all troops overseas home and live in bliss.

 

[vhcat70]

Again, it appears the zealous advocates of the war don’t want accountability. Makes you appear to be the Warhawk others have accused you of being.

What a leap between unconnected ideas. You're going off the deep end.

 

[hmt5000]

Got it. Bring our Navy back to home ports & all troops overseas home and live in bliss.

Not sure i'd do all but 700 bases in 70+ countries does seem excessive. Imagine if we actually used our military to guard our own border for once.

 

[Catemus]

How many people here are surprised?

And what label fits you best? 🐈?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

First YOU say we can have a debate & then YOU say we can't support Russia's War on Ukraine because YOUR position there is no benefit to the US in it. Now where is there a debate possible in that? YOU'VE made the decision alone; i.e., you're the sole arbitrer. KMAO.

Show those posts. I’ll wait. Good luck. I don’t want you to look too paranoid.

 

[Spica Orbit]

We don’t use the Russians’ shuttle anymore. SpaceX has taken over those duties.

I guess this must have slipped by you....

Russia launches rescue mission to the ISS

 

[Spica Orbit]

Maybe you'll post something from a non-radical, propagandist, anti-western shill. Well, probably not, maybe thats just how you roll.

---
Yeah, I'll check with CNN or MSNBC next time. You know, those non-radical networks that believe men can have babies.

 

[LOL_Man]

China is gaining influence and power, much of it by taking advantage of this war and our incompetent response to the war. It’s strengthened and new partnerships and influences go way beyond Russia. It likely has its eyes on members of NATO who are more and more becoming dependent upon China and its partnerships. While the US is acting as if Russia is a threat to NATO, China is gaining traction as the world power and addressing ITS weaknesses, rather than focusing on ghosts and rabbit holes.

You just say stuff. You make broad unsupportable assertions then cry when you get made fun of for it.

Flesh out your case. Why is China joining the axis of evil in siding with Russia, Iran, and Saudi Arabia such a brilliant move to you? You think every single one of those countries does not realize it is simply to protect the 1 asset that in a war the United States would immediately starve China of? Oil.

Do you imagine no matter what Putin and XI say and do that the Russian people do not look down on and despise the Chinese? Or that the Saudi's want to pin their lifestyles to swank Chinese culture?

You are mistaking convenience for strength. Nothing China is doing is lasting. Saudi Arabia and Russia will throw the Chinese over the side in a moment for Western favor. We hold all the cards. China is where you go when nobody else is left. How many billionaires in Russia and Saudi Arabia will be building mansions in China and jet setting with the Chinese thanks to their new flimsy alliances?

The moment Russia is defeated then the world will sort itself out the way it always has. We're where and what everyone else wants to be. Our Ford class carrier battle group by itself could keep the Chinese out of Taiwan as Taiwan is much better defended than people think. These last gasping motions of Putin and Xi are from dying countries. We are ascending and you need to hop on, shut up, or get out of the way.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

We hold all the cards.

In the midst of a typical Laughing man word salad, we find a gem. LOL, man.

 

[LOL_Man]

If you listen to Caveman then the boom is on in China. The Russians and Saudis are pouring in. They want to mingle with their new besties. Think of all those Russian and Saudi citizens that are now dreaming of finding new lives in China.

They signed an agreement. Caveman is right. China is the new "it" place to be and the world is just waiting for the right time to throw the US over the side head East with their chopsticks.

Game over, folks. The Russians and the Saudis have discovered China. How on earth can we compete with that?

 

[LOL_Man]

Chinese culture is so attractive to the Russians and the Saudis. Think of all the people that will be moving there from those two countries once they glimpse the beautiful rice fields and smog filled air so thick you can cut it with your new samurai sword?

Friday night peddling your bicycle around with the other 4 million barefoot people that live on your street. Ah, sheer nirvana. This Caveman guy, you can't get nothing past his keen insight.

A friendship agreement was all it took. Turned China into the world's biggest "it" place to be. Who goes to New York or Paris anymore when you have straw huts and tigers to keep you company?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

And more word salad.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

An economist explains why Saudi Arabia and China are looking to ditch the dollar in a new oil deal — and where Beijing could target next as it spreads yuan adoption

"A potential deal in yuan is a sign that the world is looking for some counterweight to the US dollar," said a Boston College economist.

markets.businessinsider.com

 

[LOL_Man]

This Caveman guy is so superficial it is painful, actually. He doesn't even understand the basics of what he is talking about, let alone the broader global strategic ramifications of the tiny little ideas floating around in his head.

Go ahead any buy oil in the yaun, Saudi Arabia, even though your currency is based on the US dollar. But when was the last global catastrophe that the US didn't recover far more faster with more stability than everyone else? You want to peg your currency to a country that hasn't even figured Covid out yet and that might be directly financially liable for starting it? A country that routinely manipulates its currency when it feels like it? That is based on the whim of 1 man? That is staring straight into the oblivioun of a population collapse and can't even feed its own people or fuel it's own military it is so slavish to imports?

Caveman, please stop embarrassing yourself and go out on the porch and shovel your manure to the local hayseeds that might at least be able to use it for fertilizer.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Wow. You sure showed him.

Its totally different, so, yeah I did. Perhaps you don't understand the difference.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

An economist explains why Saudi Arabia and China are looking to ditch the dollar in a new oil deal — and where Beijing could target next as it spreads yuan adoption

"A potential deal in yuan is a sign that the world is looking for some counterweight to the US dollar," said a Boston College economist.

markets.businessinsider.com

Let them deal with an absolutely manipulated currency. SA deserves it.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

---
Yeah, I'll check with CNN or MSNBC next time. You know, those non-radical networks that believe men can have babies.

I don't listen to them either. Nice strawman though.

 

[The-Hack]

The people in charge aren't willing to do the things necessary to win the war that could devolve out of all this so at that point they would just waste all the lives lost up to the "surrender in afghanistan" moment.

So, because you think the folks in charge aren’t willing to do the things necessary to win the war, you preemptively opposed doing anything at all and have consistently opposed doing it. And during your opposition, Ukraine has recaptured at least a third of what Russia initially took.

Your position is hard to justify as no one can calculate with exact precision what it will take to win the war. The efforts made by the Ukrainians, backed by European nations and the U. S. (and Japan and Australia, etc.) have pushed Russia out of the only Regional capital they initially took.

If your position is as you now state it, that Biden is too weak to do what is necessary to arm Ukraine sufficiently for victory, you should be touting a new national leader who will pursue victory more vigorously.

Instead, you have proposed doing less, not more.

 

[The-Hack]

Let them deal with an absolutely manipulated currency. SA deserves it.

Here is the next story/analysis linked immediately below the one cited by Caveman:

Here's why experts say Russia and China's attempts to 'de-dollarize' global markets are going nowhere . . . .​

Here's why experts say Russia and China's attempts to 'de-dollarize' global markets are going nowhere

Efforts to challenge the US dollar have mostly gone nowhere, experts say, and plans for alternate reserve currencies haven't panned out.

markets.businessinsider.com

 

[The-Hack]

That is staring straight into the oblivioun of a population collapse and can't even feed its own people or fuel it's own military it is so slavish to imports?

China must import huge amounts of food and fuel: some in this thread say the US is done, whilst we have just emerged as energy independent (as we have always been for food production).

We have problems, but being a net energy exporter has flipped our greatest strategic vulnerability of the last 50 years into a massive strategic advantage. Our eminent demise in the ‘70’s, 80’s, 90’s and 00’s was predicated on our excessive energy dependence. The Left has replaced that forgotten boogeyman with global warming, and fringe ideologies of equality. The Right (as seen throughout this thread) has come up with several “doomsday scenarios,” focused on misplaced fear or respect of authoritarian regimes, combined with paranoid fantasies of American impotence to solve problems.

Bluntly, no one in American much gave a sh!t about moderate temperature deviations, who wanted to wear a dress, or how many Mexicans jumped the border in the 1970’s and 1980’s, because we were going to Hell-In-a-hand-basket, as our oil was to be completely depleted by 2010.

Then an American perfected fracking.

Now with proven oil/gas reserves for two-hundred years we can easily afford to frighten ourselves to death on other issues that need and will receive solutions in the long term.

 

[LOL_Man]

Report Signals Humiliating End for Russia’s Shadow Army in Ukraine

Yevgeny Prigozhin is preparing to pull his Wagner Group mercenaries’ attention away from the war in Ukraine, according to a Bloomberg report that cites sources familiar with the matter.

His current plan is to focus the private mercenaries’ focus back to countries in Africa, such as Sudan, Mali, and the Central African Republic, where Wagner has deployed forces. On Monday, Wagner posted a recruitment notice offering deployments to African countries that would last between nine to 14 months, Bloomberg reported.

The apparent decision to recalibrate Wagner operations in Ukraine comes after a series of setbacks Wagner has faced in trying to work with the Russian government to wage war in Ukraine. Prigozhin, who enlisted private mercenaries from prison, was blocked in recent weeks from recruiting from prisons. His colleague was also recently barred from accessing Russia’s military command in Ukraine.

Tensions have spilled over into the public eye as well. Wagner Group has also had to resort to pleading with Russia in various videos posted to social media to provide more ammunition they said was desperately needed to try to fight in Ukraine, to no avail.

 

[LOL_Man]

So the above story proves the below story I posted a few days ago was exactly correct:

Russia’s next civil war has already begun

One of the bloodiest battles in modern European history is taking place in Bakhmut, with reports of more than 1,000 soldiers dying in a single day. But more significantly for the Kremlin, it may also be the site of an extraordinary Russian civil war, playing out on Ukrainian soil between different factions. At the heart of it are two of the most significant parts of the Kremlin’s war machine: the Wagner Group and the Russian ministry of defence.

Their confrontation has been eight months in the making. For while his mercenaries have been at the forefront of the campaign to take Bakhmut, Wagner leader Yevgeny Prigozhin has been waging a political battle of his own, to gain influence in the Kremlin. He seemingly believes he can use sheer military might in Ukraine – with the help of some 50,000 men – to prove himself as a Russian leader. Some think his ultimate goal is to usurp the Russian ministry of defence. Perhaps he wishes to bring all Russian forces under his personal command.

Since May last year, Prigozhin has been striking a public contrast with the Russian army’s humiliation on the battlefield. He openly brags about his own successes, while issuing damning public criticism of Russia’s top brass. He frequently alleges incompetence and even betrayal by Putin’s senior officials. In February, he went as far as to accuse Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu of treason for withholding ammunition from his troops.

As one might expect, the reaction from the ministry of defence has been unforgiving. A new report from the Institute for the Study of War says that Russian generals could be using the Bakhmut death trap as an opportunity “to deliberately expend both elite and convict Wagner forces… in an effort to weaken Prigozhin and derail his ambitions for greater influence over the Kremlin”.

In other words, they could be holding back Russian forces and depriving Wagner of ammunition in order to inflict maximum attrition on Prigozhin’s mercenaries. This would be an astonishingly self-interested strategy in the midst of an existential battle for the Russian regime and could be slowing down the advance on Bakhmut. It would mean that the Russian ministry of defence is now prioritising domestic power struggles over the invasion.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Its totally different, so, yeah I did. Perhaps you don't understand the difference.

Yeah, totally different. Gotcha. The point I made is valid. China is building a fabric that is reaching in different ways the coalition of support we would count on to stop it from invading Taiwan. The US interest in a free Taiwan is patent, because we and the world have allowed Taiwan to be the predominant chip manufacturer. That impacts all aspects of US citizens’ lives and security.

The idea that Australia may not support Taiwan is hard to fathom.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

So, because you think the folks in charge aren’t willing to do the things necessary to win the war, you preemptively opposed doing anything at all and have consistently opposed doing it. And during your opposition, Ukraine has recaptured at least a third of what Russia initially took.

Your position is hard to justify as no one can calculate with exact precision what it will take to win the war. The efforts made by the Ukrainians, backed by European nations and the U. S. (and Japan and Australia, etc.) have pushed Russia out of the only Regional capital they initially took.

If your position is as you now state it, that Biden is too weak to do what is necessary to arm Ukraine sufficiently for victory, you should be touting a new national leader who will pursue victory more vigorously.

Instead, you have proposed doing less, not more.

It’s good that you think Ukraine can “win” this war. I hope that we can soon say it did just that. How long do you estimate that will take, because not all observers agree that Ukraine is “winning.”

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Here is the next story/analysis linked immediately below the one cited by Caveman:

Here's why experts say Russia and China's attempts to 'de-dollarize' global markets are going nowhere . . . .​

Here's why experts say Russia and China's attempts to 'de-dollarize' global markets are going nowhere

Efforts to challenge the US dollar have mostly gone nowhere, experts say, and plans for alternate reserve currencies haven't panned out.

markets.businessinsider.com

Actually, the article I linked leaned toward the efforts being unsuccessful, if read. I did not present the article to suggest those efforts would be successful at this time. Some have predicted SA will split its sales with a smaller portion being sold in Chinese currency. The obvious point is not that China will currently succeed.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

China must import huge amounts of food and fuel: some in this thread say the US is done, whilst we have just emerged as energy independent (as we have always been for food production).

We have problems, but being a net energy exporter has flipped our greatest strategic vulnerability of the last 50 years into a massive strategic advantage. Our eminent demise in the ‘70’s, 80’s, 90’s and 00’s was predicated on our excessive energy dependence. The Left has replaced that forgotten boogeyman with global warming, and fringe ideologies of equality. The Right (as seen throughout this thread) has come up with several “doomsday scenarios,” focused on misplaced fear or respect of authoritarian regimes, combined with paranoid fantasies of American impotence to solve problems.

Bluntly, no one in American much gave a sh!t about moderate temperature deviations, who wanted to wear a dress, or how many Mexicans jumped the border in the 1970’s and 1980’s, because we were going to Hell-In-a-hand-basket, as our oil was to be completely depleted by 2010.

Then an American perfected fracking.

Now with proven oil/gas reserves for two-hundred years we can easily afford to frighten ourselves to death on other issues that need and will receive solutions in the long term.

Agree on most of this. And, yet, I also see fear of Putin, who has been derided by the same people as weak and insignificant, moving past Ukraine as the foundation of some people’s devotion to a foreign war. Putin is weak, yet he must be stopped because he could take more? That rationale does not compute.

When it looked as if Ukraine would fall quickly, the US and NATO seemed resigned to that fact and only appeared to give lip service to outrage. When Ukraine did not fall quickly is when we saw this as a threat to all democracies.

When you offer the president of Ukraine an escape route, you don’t think you will have to fulfill a promise made to help Ukraine. I don’t have to ignore that recent history. I do, however, respect the promise as justification for supporting Ukraine, but for me that is not indefinite, because I see that support as weakening us to a bigger threat.

That is why I think the US should focus on finding a resolution that leads to a peace and saves lives. The teenage rhetoric from some here about war has been sad. This is not a game. I used to think the “neocon” and “warhawk” monikers were silly. Now, I now they are apt descriptions of some in this country.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

As some have said, China has a plan for global primacy. What is our plan? Make America Great Again does not sound all that bad right about now. The President’s focus seems scatterbrained to me.

 

[Bill Cosby]

Why we have allowed China to emerge so strong is beyond me.

I’d tell you but you’d bury your head in the sand and call it a conspiracy theory.

 

[The-Hack]

Some have predicted SA will split its sales with a smaller portion being sold in Chinese currency. The obvious point is not that China will currently succeed.

I’m not enough of an economist to even know if the lack of dollar denominated transactions would be deadly to us.

Oddly, the authors of the second article stare that replacing the dollar with the Wan would not have much effect.

I’ve read fears that there would be a “dollar dump” which would kill us off, but Trump/McConnell printed 25 percent of all US currency in existence in 2000, Seven Trllion in one move, and we are fighting single-digit inflation as a result.

Our presidential elections are little more than choosing who runs the printing presses.

 

[SDC888]

Agree on most of this. And, yet, I also see fear of Putin, who has been derided by the same people as weak and insignificant, moving past Ukraine as the foundation of some people’s devotion to a foreign war. Putin is weak, yet he must be stopped because he could take more? That rationale does not compute.

When it looked as if Ukraine would fall quickly, the US and NATO seemed resigned to that fact and only appeared to give lip service to outrage. When Ukraine did not fall quickly is when we saw this as a threat to all democracies.

When you offer the president of Ukraine an escape route, you don’t think you will have to fulfill a promise made to help Ukraine. I don’t have to ignore that recent history. I do, however, respect the promise as justification for supporting Ukraine, but for me that is not indefinite, because I see that support as weakening us to a bigger threat.

That is why I think the US should focus on finding a resolution that leads to a peace and saves lives. The teenage rhetoric from some here about war has been sad. This is not a game. I used to think the “neocon” and “warhawk” monikers were silly. Now, I now they are apt descriptions of some in this country.

It's all narrative used to manufacture consent, the same tired argument lie about fighting them over there so we don't have to here.

Talk about failing to learn the lessons of histoory.

 

[vhcat70]

Show those posts. I’ll wait. Good luck. I don’t want you to look too paranoid.

Only one is necessary:

"Let’s not pretend that we cannot have a process and even a debate about whether a foreign war benefits the United States and to what extent. Please don’t tell us you support supporting a war that benefits the United States and its taxpayers in no way. That is not possible."

Now are you there waiting or not?