The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[CastleRubric]

1) Russia will militarily collapse, or 2) Ukraine will collapse & Russia will continue to be aggressive against its neighbors. A partition of Ukraine is a temporary reprieve of 2) as Russia will see it as a win for their greater Empire & rightful place & move forward as they see opportunity.

Now you answer your own question.

Is it fair to say that the US military + other western allies have also been consistently aggressive against other nations?

What example would you point to showing Russian military aggression against their neighbors in the last 20 years?

PS edit to note your reference to potential national liquidation/collapse is interesting ...i hadn't considered that

 

[bcw1029]

What example would you point to showing Russian military aggression against their neighbors in the last 20 years?

Georgia

 

[CastleRubric]

Georgia

You talking about the conflict that was included in the post Soviet collapse?

I remember 1989-1991 ish -- Ukraine, Georgia & I THINK Belarus received Russian military intervention - other satellites did not (Poland, East Germany others)

Do you remember who the first prime minister of the post-soviet Georgia ?

I believe that was US General and Clinton+Bush
cabinet member Shalokasville (sp?) -

Or do you mean another intervention there?

Would you characterize that intervention as possessing the same degree of impact regarding casualties or economic disruption -
same as the 2-4 Gulf Wars we led?

 

[CastleRubric]

Dan Fouts yelling at Brent Musberger in "Waterboy".

Dan Fouts and Brent Musberger from "Waterboy".

Weirdly the fifth Adam Sandler reference made in Moms house here today

Thats fkking Trippy as sin dude

Honky jive hussy speak

 

[entropy13]

You talking about the conflict that was included in the post Soviet collapse?

I remember 1989-1991 ish -- Ukraine, Georgia & I THINK Belarus received Russian military intervention - other satellites did not (Poland, East Germany others)

Do you remember who the first prime minister of the post-soviet Georgia ?

I believe that was US General and Clinton+Bush
cabinet member Shalokasville (sp?) -

Or do you mean another intervention there?

Would you characterize that intervention as possessing the same degree of impact regarding casualties or economic disruption -
same as the 2-4 Gulf Wars we led?

Shevardnadze was the first Georgian Prez/Pm/Whatever. He had been the Soviet foreign minister.

Russia had been effing around in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both parts of Georgia, since shortly after the Soviet collapse.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 when they felt Saakashvili (sp?) was getting too plucky. He was pro-Western. Bush had somewhat recklessly made overtures about Georgia joining NATO, TBH.

I believe you've conflated Saakashvili with Shalikashvili, who was Chairman of the JCS under Clinton/Bush. 😉

 

[CastleRubric]

Shevardnadze was the first Georgian Prez/Pm/Whatever. He had been the Soviet foreign minister.

Russia had been effing around in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, both parts of Georgia, since shortly after the Soviet collapse.

Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 when they felt Saakashvili (sp?) was getting too plucky. He was pro-Western. Bush had somewhat recklessly made overtures about Georgia joining NATO, TBH.

I believe you've conflated Saakashvili with Shalikashvili, who was Chairman of the JCS under Clinton/Bush. 😉

you are damn sure correct, sir

i did get those two periods/events backwards

Now if they had invaded Mississippi - we'd ALL support the great cause ....

Do you remember the awful mass shooting / military style assault on the Russian orphanage in or around ...early 2000s I THINK

(Russia's response did allegedly include use of a banned incapacitating chemical agent that we developed designed to induce hours or a few days of shared LSD like reactions --
Location MAY have also been in Georgia?
Belarus possibly -

Is that Region where the Cossacks originated fm?


Dan Fouts passed for 7 TDs as well

 

[Catemus]

You talking about the conflict that was included in the post Soviet collapse?

I remember 1989-1991 ish -- Ukraine, Georgia & I THINK Belarus received Russian military intervention - other satellites did not (Poland, East Germany others)

Do you remember who the first prime minister of the post-soviet Georgia ?

I believe that was US General and Clinton+Bush
cabinet member Shalokasville (sp?) -

Or do you mean another intervention there?

Would you characterize that intervention as possessing the same degree of impact regarding casualties or economic disruption -
same as the 2-4 Gulf Wars we led?

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

[Marleydogg]

Two wrongs don’t make a right.

Hahahaha. You post propaganda describing propaganda 🤣

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Hahahaha. You post propaganda describing propaganda 🤣

What makes his post propaganda?

 

[jameslee32]

 

[SDC888]

View embedded media

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

View embedded media

Talk about strawman, sheesh. Did those attempts at diplomacy occur? Its an important distinction.

 

[Catemus]

Hahahaha. You post propaganda describing propaganda 🤣

You listened to Twisted Sister back in the day, didn’t you? Maybe too much? You’re bent, man.

 

[Wildcats1st]

Yeah, but is this armor better than M1 or Leopard offers? Perhaps not.

View embedded media

So we pay Pakistan and they send their tanks???? 😂

 

[entropy13]

you are damn sure correct, sir

i did get those two periods/events backwards

Now if they had invaded Mississippi - we'd ALL support the great cause ....

Do you remember the awful mass shooting / military style assault on the Russian orphanage in or around ...early 2000s I THINK

(Russia's response did allegedly include use of a banned incapacitating chemical agent that we developed designed to induce hours or a few days of shared LSD like reactions --
Location MAY have also been in Georgia?
Belarus possibly -

Is that Region where the Cossacks originated fm?


Dan Fouts passed for 7 TDs as well

I do recall an incident, I think in Chechnya, but not sure, where some separatists had taken a bunch of people hostage in a theater (like, hundreds). Russia used some sort of chemical agent, which incapacitated everyone inside, however, a lot of the hostages ended up being killed, I guess before the agent could affect everyone completely. There very well could've been a separate incident involving an orphanage.

 

[bcw1029]

Do you remember who the first prime minister of the post-soviet Georgia ?

I believe that was US General and Clinton+Bush
cabinet member Shalokasville (sp?) -

Or do you mean another intervention there?

Would you characterize that intervention as possessing the same degree of impact regarding casualties or economic disruption -
same as the 2-4 Gulf Wars we led?

Yeah as another poster indicated, the names of the former Joint Chiefs of Staff and the former Georgian President have a resemblance and sound almost the same.

The skirmish/fighting only lasted 5 days, and Russia got to flex over its small neighbor. In terms of impact or disruption, wouldn’t compare it to the Gulf Wars.

What’s interesting is 80% + of Georgians want EU and NATO membership & to be closer to the West over Russia’s objections, particularly with NATO. We’ll see how that plays out. Personally think the Caucasus Mountains would be a cool place to visit.

 

[bcw1029]

I do recall an incident, I think in Chechnya, but not sure, where some separatists had taken a bunch of people hostage in a theater (like, hundreds). Russia used some sort of chemical agent, which incapacitated everyone inside, however, a lot of the hostages ended up being killed, I guess before the agent could affect everyone completely. There very well could've been a separate incident involving an orphanage.

You’re referencing the Beslan school siege.

 

[The-Hack]

You’re referencing the Beslan school siege.

Yes. If Russian reports of the day can be believed, hundreds of grade school students died, victims of Muslim terrirists.

 

[The-Hack]

Is it fair to say that the US military + other western allies have also been consistently aggressive against other nations?

Point out an example of our aggression condemned by the United Nations?

You can’t simply “morally equate” military activity in a vacuum.

We have made one major error the last 20 years, repeatedly: we have tried to occupy and civilize Muslim nations. One could argue that these were humanitarian and moral efforts, but they were also a massive waste.

These foolhardy efforts have led to thousands of casualties and trillions of dollars wasted.

 

[The-Hack]

Dan Fouts and Brent Musberger from "Waterboy".

Damn it to Hell: foiled by late 20th Century cinematic humor AGAAAAIN!

BBFG, By God, I’ll see your “Waterboy,” and raise you a Leslie Neilson, Biatch!

And I’m not kidding, and stop calling me “Shirley!”

 

[AustinTXCat]

So we pay Pakistan and they send their tanks???? 😂

I dunno. Joe or Olaf may provide more informed answers.

 

[The-Hack]

So we pay Pakistan and they send their tanks???? 😂

I don’t know about Pakistan, but I’ve read that Saudi Arabia has over a thousand Abrams!

Hell, they could send 25 percent of their Abrams and chase Putin back to Belgorod.

 

[The-Hack]

You must have gotten an email word for word from the Kremlin.

You have to hand it to SDC888, he takes the awkward phrases out of the Russian talking points, and makes it understandable. There is no “is potato” when he is finished.

“SDC888” . . . . Hmmmmmm. “Soviet Damn Communist Eighty-Eight-Eight?”

 

[AustinTXCat]

Rasputitsa or spring mud season. Slowed/contained numerous forces over past few centuries.

 

[LOL_Man]

Least surprising development in this thread: The Putin water carriers don't want to be called the Putin water carriers.

 

[Spica Orbit]

What makes his post propaganda?

---
See how well US propaganda works.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

---
See how well US propaganda works.

So you don't know either. Got it.

 

[SDC888]

Least surprising development in this thread: The Putin water carriers don't want to be called the Putin water carriers.

I doubt that's the case.

What's certainly the case is that you in the pro-war camp can't make your "argument" without ad-hominems and strawmen.

(i know, i know... laughy face, you so smart!)

 

[LOL_Man]

I doubt that's the case.

What's certainly the case is that you in the pro-war camp can't make your "argument" without ad-hominems and strawmen.

(i know, i know... laughy face, you so smart!)

The case has irrefutably been made in this thread for the need to defeat Russia in Ukraine. Just because you still have Kremlin talking points doesn't change that, comrade.

Look, at its most basic so you understand it, you are on the same side as Russia, China, and Iran. That's your argument. I haven't seen you own that yet, so how about owning it then we can move on as to why?

 

[SDC888]

The case has irrefutably been made in this thread for the need to defeat Russia in Ukraine. Just because you still have Kremlin talking points doesn't change that, comrade.

Look, at its most basic so you understand it, you are on the same side as Russia, China, and Iran. That's your argument. I haven't seen you own that yet, so how about owning it then we can move on as to why?

I know it's been "irrefutably made" by you... in your own minds.

Just as you spike yoour football in the PT thread after having made a scientifically naive argument, at multiple points displaying your scientific illiteracy, so too are you doing the geopolitical equivalent here.

"Victory in Ukraine" is decidedly not a requisite for peace and prosperity in the west. It was a mistake to attempt to weaken Russia by exploiting the Ukrainians as pawns, for all involved. That doesn't mean in the end we in the west won't be stronger and russia weaker, but it was an unnecessary strategy with needless death and destruction at bast, with potentially catastrophic ramifications at worst.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I doubt that's the case.

What's certainly the case is that you in the pro-war camp can't make your "argument" without ad-hominems and strawmen.

(i know, i know... laughy face, you so smart!)

You use strawman arguments a lot, what are you talking about?

 

[LOL_Man]

I know it's been "irrefutably made" by you... in your own minds.

Just as you spike yoour football in the PT thread after having made a scientifically naive argument, at multiple points displaying your scientific illiteracy, so too are you doing the geopolitical equivalent here.

"Victory in Ukraine" is decidedly not a requisite for peace and prosperity in the west. It was a mistake to attempt to weaken Russia by exploiting the Ukrainians as pawns, for all involved. That doesn't mean in the end we in the west won't be stronger and russia weaker, but it was an unnecessary strategy with needless death and destruction at bast, with potentially catastrophic ramifications at worst.

Russian, China, Iran... and you.

Discuss.

 

[Spica Orbit]

Russian, China, Iran... and you.

Discuss.

---
War Pig.

 

[SDC888]

Russian, China, Iran... and you.

Discuss.

Yeah, no.

The anti-war position is not pro-enemy; your accusations are merely a way for you dismiss the argument. The only thing you are dismissing with that line of "tinking" is yourselves.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

---
War Pig.

Can you define that?

 

[CastleRubric]

Yeah - I was only sharing that information in order to verify the veracity of my memory of history in that region - with the various cultures involved

Trying to educate and learn -

And I HAD forgotten about the specific instances of Russian military activity cited by the poster

I dont believe those conflicts are apples to apples comparing to the degree / scope of military activity carried out by the US + Allies since 9/11 though

Now NATO posturing like they are a legitimate military force - really haven't seen Hot-NATO combatants since --- Yugoslavia break up?

Do you happen to have a visual aid you can post that identifies and describes what Western/Marxist /Soros-ian propaganda looks like?

Or do you only carry the Russian themed ones?

Anything on the Chinese by chance?


You agree it's good to be able to detect and avoid opportunistic political propaganda regardless of source right?

What do you think about the US Army deploying PSYOPS and deep fakes against US
citizens?


Not attacking YOU

Just highlighting other aspects of this subject I believe are critically important

 

[CastleRubric]

I do recall an incident, I think in Chechnya, but not sure, where some separatists had taken a bunch of people hostage in a theater (like, hundreds). Russia used some sort of chemical agent, which incapacitated everyone inside, however, a lot of the hostages ended up being killed, I guess before the agent could affect everyone completely. There very well could've been a separate incident involving an orphanage.

Youre right - there was one in a theater too

I can't recall if the orphanage/daycare one
was separate now -

too awful to look up and put those images back in the brain, man

About to make the treak fm Bell Co / Middlesboro to my house in Clark Co -- two
hour drive on the nose & not unpleasant to do

Good travel weather today too

 

[CastleRubric]

Yeah as another poster indicated, the names of the former Joint Chiefs of Staff and the former Georgian President have a resemblance and sound almost the same.

The skirmish/fighting only lasted 5 days, and Russia got to flex over its small neighbor. In terms of impact or disruption, wouldn’t compare it to the Gulf Wars.

What’s interesting is 80% + of Georgians want EU and NATO membership & to be closer to the West over Russia’s objections, particularly with NATO. We’ll see how that plays out. Personally think the Caucasus Mountains would be a cool place to visit.

Damn good call on visiting the Caucasas Mtns!!

Are those also part of the Urals?

Carpathian Mts too !

 

[CastleRubric]

You’re referencing the Beslan school siege.

BAM
THANK YOU!

Knew it was something LIKE Bedlam

 

[CastleRubric]

Point out an example of our aggression condemned by the United Nations?

You can’t simply “morally equate” military activity in a vacuum.

We have made one major error the last 20 years, repeatedly: we have tried to occupy and civilize Muslim nations. One could argue that these were humanitarian and moral efforts, but they were also a massive waste.

These foolhardy efforts have led to thousands of casualties and trillions of dollars wasted.

The UN - where we hold veto power over the
entire security council -- is ONE potential indicator of 'value assessment' on a military operation

But I would argue longitudinal data / evaluation of the previously targeted nations:

(economic output, infrastructure quality, morbidity-mortality across age groups, and economic sovereignity -- others?)

Will be a better way of assessing our impact and fallout consequences

Do you agree?

As for the UN I cant cite any Security councul resolutions

BUT - I can point out to our influential activities in swaying support for military action -- based on lies

(Iraqi weapons of mass destruction)

more --

The UN is a whole new level of dysfunctional corruption -