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The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

For those that take a view that Ukraine is meaningless to the US, I think this shows that's only true if Europe and Taiwan are also meaningless.

"Some of these analysts’ conclusions about the war in Ukraine—for instance, that the United States’ domestic consensus in favor of arming Kyiv would falter—have been borne out. But other realities are conspicuously absent from the Chinese public discourse. China has, in fact, incurred costs as a result of Putin’s war and Beijing’s economic and diplomatic support for it. Europe has not completely turned its back on China, but the country’s deepening relationship with Russia has caused a significant deterioration in its relations with many European countries that cannot easily be reversed. And the symmetry between Putin’s lust to seize Ukrainian territory and Beijing’s long-standing appetite to absorb Taiwan has provoked the United States and its allies in the Indo-Pacific to harden their defenses.

These blind spots matter because in China, the war in Ukraine is serving as both an observatory and a laboratory as the country prepares for heightened geopolitical conflict with the United States. As they analyze events in Ukraine, Chinese scholars seek to assess the United States’ and Europe’s resolve and understand what risks China might be forced to bear in a geopolitical or military crisis. Some experts, such as the leading military strategist Zhou Bo, have concluded that NATO’s hesitancy to make certain major interventions on Ukraine’s behalf proves that, aside from the United States, Taiwan would lack defenders in a future conflict with China. Although these scholars tend to be careful not to discuss the contours of a potential war in the Taiwan Strait too explicitly, many seem to be drawing a straight line from the cracks in the United States’ determination to support Ukraine and its likely will to stomach a possible protracted conflict with Beijing."

You should sign up to fight then. You obviously feel it's important for American to die there. Don't be a hyprocrite.
 
It is kind of a weird logical leap to say that if you oppose financially supporting Ukraine’s war, you must also oppose helping to defend Taiwan and/or our NATO allies, as if facts don’t matter and each situation cannot be independently evaluated to assess USA interests.

Also, Ukraine having good moments in this war is not a negative thing, by any stretch, for those of us focused on peace. But, I am not sure that all of the historical analogies being thrown around are relevant. It may be indicative of something bigger, but it also might be a blip on the radar in four to eight weeks that was predictive of nothing.

As Austin stated, I think, if this push into Russia means leverage toward a negotiated resolution that saves lives and brings peace, it could be a relatively positive moment. But, if it is just a foretaste of a much longer costly war, the stated excitement about historical analogies is nothing more than mental masturbation. Yay! We know the history of wars!!! Good for us.

As the tech of wars advances, it is just as likely that the world becomes a more dangerous place and the future more uncertain as it could mean future wars are thwarted. More likely, I would think, the former. Where/when is the point in this “advancement” where the difference between being the most tech advanced militarily is irrelevant?

As the world seemingly gravitates toward more division, the idea of Pax Americana seems to be a fading era in history. Is the world getting safer? Doubtful. Is it slipping toward more and more chaos? Time will tell, but that seems suggested daily.

A year ago now, a suicidal man who was anti-gun and pro gun legislation purchased a rifle and took innocent lives in what appears to have been a statement death. On the world stage, with the advancements of death tech, I believe we are getting closer and closer to such sickness being devastating on a mass level. As we watch a nuclear power struggle to fight what is today considered a more conventional war, it just seems a matter of time before we construct and distribute the mechanism of our destruction into the hands of those who will wish to make a global statement as they exit.

I wonder what might have been had our advancements truly brought peace.
 
It's wild how much leverage people give to a 22km incursion and totally ignore the Texas size takeover.... But I'm sure it isn't wishful thinking.

They didn’t have the 22km as leverage prior to this move so not sure you’re making the point you think you are. Also the Sudzha pipeline is within that 22km they captured.
 
It is kind of a weird logical leap to say that if you oppose financially supporting Ukraine’s war, you must also oppose helping to defend Taiwan and/or our NATO allies, as if facts don’t matter and each situation cannot be independently evaluated to assess USA interests.

Agree. China is waaaaay more the threat of global dominance and is probably way further than we know. That's exactly why neither politician nor media will stand up to them.

That said, I don't see the need to be involved in either. We arent world police and we can better repel china here at home by expelling their money tendrils from everything including politics, education, media, tech, etc. if we dont, they wil win and there wont even be shots fired.

If Russia is anything, they are our best ally against china. Even if not, we definitely dont need to risk hot or cold war with them over the most corrupt country, by far, in Europe. That is.... unless that corrupt country somehow has some particular value on the individual level which to many it obviously does.
 
Because if it comes to blows we will need everyone we can get? Hello history?

I know they dont teach history anymore, but its insane anyone asks for an explanation of how Russia might be an important ally in stopping a nation hellbent on world domination.

They are aligned with China. You should keep up before you start insulting people.
 
Agree. China is waaaaay more the threat of global dominance and is probably way further than we know. That's exactly why neither politician nor media will stand up to them.

That said, I don't see the need to be involved in either. We arent world police and we can better repel china here at home by expelling their money tendrils from everything including politics, education, media, tech, etc. if we dont, they wil win and there wont even be shots fired.

If Russia is anything, they are our best ally against china. Even if not, we definitely dont need to risk hot or cold war with them over the most corrupt country, by far, in Europe. That is.... unless that corrupt country somehow has some particular value on the individual level which to many it obviously does.

I think our reliance technologically upon Taiwan makes that issue much more important to the U.S. If we get our sh!t together, that fact changes. But, right now? I think Taiwan is distinct.

Those who say NATO countries are at risk haven’t made their point and are talking out both sides of their mouths.
 
It's wild how much leverage people give to a 22km incursion and totally ignore the Texas size takeover.... But I'm sure it isn't wishful thinking.
We've had 2-1/2 years here of discussing the Texas-size takeover. A few pages discussing a two Ky counties size takeover hardly seems excessive nor ignoring the rest. And I like wistful thinking.
 
And it just the weapons alone... It's the tech swap. More and more rockets and drones are penetrating the Iron Dome. That is a tech transfer and "some on here" seem to be willing to give up our advantage in order to save a heavily Russian area of Ukraine.
Yep. The Russia-Iran-China Axis at work. But Ukraine is a worthless exercise. LOL.
 
I think our reliance technologically upon Taiwan makes that issue much more important to the U.S. If we get our sh!t together, that fact changes. But, right now? I think Taiwan is distinct.

Those who say NATO countries are at risk haven’t made their point and are talking out both sides of their mouths.

I agree if we're having to choose. That's why i keep using Taiwan as an example of the hypocrisy/npcism that goes on with Ukraine. By any measure Taiwan deserves out protection from china much more. Yet noone cares.
 
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Same voice: “Russia’s military sucks and are struggling at every juncture. Russia is a threat to our NATO allies.”

Yeah, agreed, F’d up.

The hilarious Putin paradox. Putin is simultaneously so incompetent hes losing this campaign vs Ukraine while also being so genius and dangerous he will take over the world unless we stop him now.
 
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The hilarious Putin paradox. Putin is simultaneously so incompetent hes losing this campaign vs Ukraine while also being so genius and dangerous he will take over the world unless we stop him now.

If no one stood up to him what happens?
 
Interesting quote from Igor Girkin (now jailed)

“Regarding the situation at the front: I’m watching closely. I consider the Ukrainian strike in the Kursk region to be a distraction. We should expect the second - the main one, in which they will mainly use their remaining reserves and aviation (F-16). Most likely in the Crimean direction.”

I kind of always suspected this was a feint for something bigger, likely in the south, unless they decide to go for Belgorod.
 
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Did the Ukrainians get some sort of technological advantage they are taking advantage of before the Ruskies figure it out and adapt? It seems like something unusual is going on.
 
Yes. Im sure thats it. Because if you put a brand new tool in unskilled hands, the unskilled hands suddenly become competent.
It is. You know that Ukraine is getting trained on some western weapons, right?


Ukraine would already been in Russian control. Had they not been given Javelins and NLAWS during the first days of the invasion. Russian armor would have steamrolled through the country.
 
It is. You know that Ukraine is getting trained on some western weapons, right?


Ukraine would already been in Russian control. Had they not been given Javelins and NLAWS during the first days of the invasion. Russian armor would have steamrolled through the country.

Uh huh.

Picks up musical instrument and cant play. Picks up nicer musical instrument and now can perform really well.

Also i was told in this very thread the equipment we were giving them was old and outdated so might as well give it to them. Now its magically the difference in the campaign despite no way they had time for anything more than minimal training.

Truly impressive the amount of mental gymnastics it takes to get these conclusions.
 
Uh huh.

Picks up musical instrument and cant play. Picks up nicer musical instrument and now can perform really well.

Also i was told in this very thread the equipment we were giving them was old and outdated so might as well give it to them. Now its magically the difference in the campaign despite no way they had time for anything more than minimal training.

Truly impressive the amount of mental gymnastics it takes to get these conclusions.
Yes, OUR equipment is old and semi-outdated, and via the EDA, we’re sending it to them for a fraction of the cost it would cost to decommission and break down. The difference you are alluding to is Europe stepping up majorly with assets, Ukraine now being the de facto drone hub of the world, and more brigades being trained.
 
Did the Ukrainians get some sort of technological advantage they are taking advantage of before the Ruskies figure it out and adapt? It seems like something unusual is going on.
In Kursk, they only left poorly trained conscripts and border patrol to defend a large-sized area with a porous border (much like our own). Time will tell, but Russia may have stretched itself too thin. Been reading reports of fuel shortages for the invaders in south Ukraine.
 
In Kursk, they only left poorly trained conscripts and border patrol to defend a large-sized area with a porous border (much like our own). Time will tell, but Russia may have stretched itself too thin. Been reading reports of fuel shortages for the invaders in south Ukraine.
Even if Russia left it wide open and they had ironclad intelligence to know it, it still would be seemingly too big a risk to commit that many men to what could have been (and still may, frankly) a suicide mission.

I think pure speculation suggests there has to be more to it. That more may simply be that they had to get in front of the US presidential election to try to guarantee more money regardless of winner, but this looks too intricately planned and the Ukrainians appear to be uncharacteristically quiet about what they are doing.
 
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He tries to take over the former USSR countries and sparks article 5. How many times does this have to be explained?

I don’t remember a thread for Crimea or Georgia, or a call for
Congress demanding we in any way attempt to seriously thwart Russia. It is interesting that when our leadership ignores Russia’s aggression, those things are ignored. When our leadership takes issue, it becomes the most important issue for some.

Ukraine and Article 5 are much different issues. Putin may be an ugly dictator, but who really thinks he plans to take on NATO? Seriously, that is beyond a stretch, especially since we have witnessed the past two years. The Suicidal Putin is not believable.
 
Germans think Nord Stream was sabotaged by a pro-Ukraine group that rented a yacht at Rostock, Gr, and sailed it mysteriously to the pipeline after picking up explosives & divers along the way. Been to Rostock which we trained from Berlin & picked up a Baltic cruise ship there. Nice place.

March, 2023
 
Yes, OUR equipment is old and semi-outdated, and via the EDA, we’re sending it to them for a fraction of the cost it would cost to decommission and break down. The difference you are alluding to is Europe stepping up majorly with assets, Ukraine now being the de facto drone hub of the world, and more brigades being trained.

Equipment is beating Russia should have been decommissioned. Odd.
 
I don’t remember a thread for Crimea or Georgia, or a call for
Congress demanding we in any way attempt to seriously thwart Russia. It is interesting that when our leadership ignores Russia’s aggression, those things are ignored. When our leadership takes issue, it becomes the most important issue for some.

Ukraine and Article 5 are much different issues. Putin may be an ugly dictator, but who really thinks he plans to take on NATO? Seriously, that is beyond a stretch, especially since we have witnessed the past two years. The Suicidal Putin is not believable.

Oh there was. That was their rally cry before this one. The kurds are in there too i just don't recall which version of world police rally cry update that was
 
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