The Ukraine war. (Yes, we'll mind our manners)

[bigblueinsanity]

Shame you didn't have anything to say that wasn't based on wildly misquoting me.

I said plenty, all of it irrefutable. That's why you ignored it.

1) not every inconvenient fact is Russian disinformation

2) china is way more of a threat than Russia but the bribe all the right people so they're given a free pass.

3) Ukraine isn't on some moral high ground, although their morally better than Russia. Definitely not worth spending billions and risking ww3 except they bribed the right politicians

4) just 10 years ago Obama laughed at the notion Russia was a threat and even helped them rebuild, including selling them uranium. That was a huge mistake and they should've been kept down

 

[Caveman Catfan]

"Everything I disagree with is Russian misinformation" lol

I can 100% tell why me and most fiscally conservative people oppose it: it's a giant waste of money when our economy and inflation is out of control. If we had loads of surplus, then sure go for it.

Yes yes I get that Putin is a bad person etc. There are plenty of bad people. Him taking back a sliver of the Ukraine wouldn't lead to world domination. Just 11 years ago Obama "zinged" Romney on Russia saying the 80s called and wanted their foreign policy back. Then Hillary et al sold him uranium. So apparently they didn't think he was bent on world domination all that long ago. If course that's before Ukraine money started outbidding Russia.

If we're going to overspend to stop any nation on the world stage, it should hands down be china. They're openly pursuing world domination and making significant inroads. In fact, it's pretty likely they're currently the preeminent super power. If not, they certainly will be. But they too wisely bribe all the right politicians. So instead we'll spend billions and billions to stop a mildly dangerous country from acquiring insignificant land while ignoring our own people and the imminent Chinese threat

We evidently need a great reset with Russia.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Russia's War on Ukraine is not a mere local territorial dispute:

"... Putin’s 2022 invasion of Ukraine was not intended to win over the West. To the contrary, it was a premeditated assault not just on the territory of Ukraine but on Western power as such. Putin wanted the war to help Russia align with the non-West, expose the hollowness of Western power, and demonstrate that Russia is destined to be an important arbiter of international order. This is a top-line effort for Russia. Had the war gone well, Putin would have tried to split Europe from the U.S. He has not given up on this agenda and will wage a long war, either to grind down Western backing for Ukraine or to ensure that the Ukraine invited into Western institutions like NATO and the European Union is a failed state. Putin’s dream in Ukraine is to prove the reality of American decline." Territorial dispute. LOL.

For Putin, American decline equals Russian ascendance."

"Since 2014, Putin has also cultivated good relations with China. The two countries are supposed to be the linchpins of a post-American international order, a multipolar world liberated from the depredations of American militarism and democracy promotion. Achieving this end is the grand strategic aim of Putin’s Russia.

Putin’s sweeping ambitions have shown him to be a political romantic. He is besotted with history: Foreign Minister Lavrov has quipped that Putin’s advisers are Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great and Catherine the Great. By attempting to conquer Ukrainian territory, Putin believes he is restoring Russia’s proper grandeur." I.e., grandeur, not territory.

Essay | The Godfather in the Kremlin

The very public death of Putin henchman Yevgeny Prigozhin highlights the evolution of Russia into a mafia state held together by violence and incapable of global leadership.

www.wsj.com

Were Crimea and Georgia part of his plan to separate the US from NATO? Did that show the hollowness of the western power?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Bad day for Ivan. Switchblade drones are awesome.

View embedded media

The celebration of war and death.

 

[SosaUK1987]

That’s surely equipped with some explosive right? If it takes out the whole truck I can see the effectiveness. If it just takes out one guy I don’t understand it’s use. Although I suppose it would be useful as a terror tool.

Yes it’s equipped with explosives. I imagine it took everything out.

 

[SosaUK1987]

Imagine getting your kicks when some nobody gets killed.

F the Russians. They started the BS.

 

[WayneDougan]

F the Russians. They started the BS.

We’re playing a dangerous game for humanity fighting with drones.

 

[BlueSince92]

.

1) not every inconvenient fact is Russian disinformation

2) china is way more of a threat than Russia but the bribe all the right people so they're given a free pass.

3) Ukraine isn't on some moral high ground, although their morally better than Russia. Definitely not worth spending billions and risking ww3 except they bribed the right politicians

4) just 10 years ago Obama laughed at the notion Russia was a threat and even helped them rebuild, including selling them uranium. That was a huge mistake and they should've been kept down

i.e. You’re full of yourself and blowhard and won’t see a refutation because I don’t waste my time replying point by point to people who don’t have anything to say they can’t sell without straw men.

 

[SDC888]

i.e. You’re full of yourself and blowhard and won’t see a refutation because I don’t waste my time replying point by point to people who don’t have anything to say they can’t sell without straw men.

He can most definitely debate you without strawmen.

But you are naive to not understand the depth of radical nationalism (what we would consider Naziism) in Ukraine. While you were in Lviv enjoying a high standard of living at a very cheap pricethanks to their debased currency and incomptent politics/corrupted society, they were putting their best face forward for you. As a European myself, I know precisely what they were saying to you while you were blissfully enjoying your 50 cent croissant and latte, gawking at hot chicks dressed to the nines walk by. thinking to yourself "wow, this is awesome!"

 

[SosaUK1987]

He can most definitely debate you without strawmen.

But you are naive to not understand the depth of radical nationalism (what we would consider Naziism) in Ukraine. While you were in Lviv enjoying a high standard of living at a very cheap pricethanks to their debased currency and incomptent politics/corrupted society, they were putting their best face forward for you. As a European myself, I know precisely what they were saying to you while you were blissfully enjoying your 50 cent croissant and latte, gawking at hot chicks dressed to the nines walk by. thinking to yourself "wow, this is awesome!"

Where do you live in Europe?

 

[JumperJack]

F the Russians. They started the BS.

That dude on the truck started it?

 

[BlueSince92]

He can most definitely debate you without strawmen.

But you are naive to not understand the depth of radical nationalism (what we would consider Naziism) in Ukraine. While you were in Lviv enjoying a high standard of living at a very cheap pricethanks to their debased currency and incomptent politics/corrupted society, they were putting their best face forward for you. As a European myself, I know precisely what they were saying to you while you were blissfully enjoying your 50 cent croissant and latte, gawking at hot chicks dressed to the nines walk by. thinking to yourself "wow, this is awesome!"

Talk about naïveté.

Whether he can debate me without straw men is irrelevant. He chose to try to attack my post out of the blue with a straw man. His idiot choice. He won’t be hurting for people like you who don’t realize there’s a reason he chose to lead with a straw man. But that’s not my problem.

I lived all over Ukraine, son. Lviv longest. But also Kharkiv, Sumy, Kyiv, Odessa. And those are just the addresses. Traveled all over that country on and off for nearly a decade by bus, train, and BlaBlaCar. As a European, you slurp European talking points, have probably never set foot in Ukraine, and look silly trying to educate me about that country. Croissants and lattes are for pansies.

 

[Caveman Catfan]

We’re playing a dangerous game for humanity fighting with drones.

When you see this sort of thing, you wonder how long before this becomes part of a regular terrorist and criminal behavior. And, was the operator in Ukraine? Or in another country?

 

[SDC888]

Where do you live in Europe?

I don't currently, but don't/won't talk about myself online, just that I'm giving you an anti-war perspective influenced by European values and understanding.

Some ~50% of Germans are against this war because of the havoc it is doing to their economy. The smartest of them do so because they intimately understand the type of passions that are latent and being inflamed.

Talk about naïveté.

Whether he can debate me without straw men is irrelevant. He chose to try to attack my post out of the blue with a straw man. His idiot choice. He won’t be hurting for people like you who don’t realize there’s a reason he chose to lead with a straw man. But that’s not my problem.

I lived all over Ukraine, son. Lviv longest. But also Kharkiv, Sumy, Kyiv, Odessa. And those are just the addresses. Traveled all over that country on and off for nearly a decade by bus, train, and BlaBlaCar. As a European, you slurp European talking points, have probably never set foot in Ukraine, and look silly trying to educate me about that country. Croissants and lattes are for pansies.

Ok.

I don't need anyone's "talking points;" if one of us is indeed reliant on "talking points," then it's certainly you, Son.

Give me a break.

Were Americans properly informed about this war: namely the impetus and actual reasons it's being waged, the causes and conditions which were necessary in its tyragic and inevitable coming to fruition, who was/is responsible for that, whom is actually benefiting(oligarchs, US/China geopolitics), then they would not have it all "wrong," but be completely and wholly against it. This is not the one time the media is telling you the truth about a war... and I don't think he was even creating a strawman out of your position, just hyperbolic. You said yourself anti-war conservatives were so because they listened to someone who was repeating Putin's propaganda. I'll gladly discuss this with you if you like, don't need any strawmen or useless personal insults to make my case that this proxy war serves no one, certainly not the Ukrainian people, and should've been, could've been easily prevented. There is nothing more damaging to Ukrainian people, other than ~ 10 million whose wish came true and got to leave, than this proxy war and our continued insistance in waging it.

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

 

[SosaUK1987]

That dude on the truck started it?

Maybe.

 

[SosaUK1987]

I don't currently, but don't/won't talk about myself online, just that I'm giving you an anti-war perspective influenced by European values and understanding.

Some ~50% of Germans are against this war because of the havoc it is doing to their economy. The smartest of them do so because they intimately understand the type of passions that are latent and being inflamed.



Ok.

I don't need anyone's "talking points;" if one of us is indeed reliant on "talking points," then it's certainly you, Son.

Give me a break.

Were Americans properly informed about this war: namely the impetus and actual reasons it's being waged, the causes and conditions which were necessary in its tyragic and inevitable coming to fruition, who was/is responsible for that, whom is actually benefiting(oligarchs, US/China geopolitics), then they would not have it all "wrong," but be completely and wholly against it. This is not the one time the media is telling you the truth about a war... and I don't think he was even creating a strawman out of your position, just hyperbolic. You said yourself anti-war conservatives were so because they listened to someone who was repeating Putin's propaganda. I'll gladly discuss this with you if you like, don't need any strawmen or useless personal insults to make my case that this proxy war serves no one, certainly not the Ukrainian people, and should've been, could've been easily prevented. There is nothing more damaging to Ukrainian people, other than ~ 10 million whose wish came true and got to leave, than this proxy war and our continued insistance in waging it.

With friends like that, who needs enemies.

I wasn’t being a Dick. Was genuinely curious.

 

[SDC888]

I wasn’t being a Dick. Was genuinely curious.

SOrry if it came off like that: I'm merely telling you my bias, which is peace and prosperity in Europe.

 

[vhcat70]

Were Crimea and Georgia part of his plan to separate the US from NATO? Did that show the hollowness of the western power?

Why wouldn't they have been?

 

[SosaUK1987]

SOrry if it came off like that: I'm merely telling you my bias, which is peace and prosperity in Europe.

Europe needs to step up and take care of themselves for once, imo.

 

[WayneDougan]

When you see this sort of thing, you wonder how long before this becomes part of a regular terrorist and criminal behavior. And, was the operator in Ukraine? Or in another country?

I was never worried about the military turning on US citizens because it would require every day Joe’s to target their fellow citizens. With this autonomous drone crap we could get to the point where a single use prompt could send a swarm of drones out to kill thousands. It should be illegal. Fight like a f***ing man.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

We’re playing a dangerous game for humanity fighting with drones.

Hopefully this was at least an hvt but looks like it was just a truck full of jackwagon nobodies. Guess you can waste these resources when someone else writes you a blank check

i.e. You’re full of yourself and blowhard and won’t see a refutation because I don’t waste my time replying point by point to people who don’t have anything to say they can’t sell without straw men.

Talk about naïveté.

Whether he can debate me without straw men is irrelevant. He chose to try to attack my post out of the blue with a straw man. His idiot choice. He won’t be hurting for people like you who don’t realize there’s a reason he chose to lead with a straw man. But that’s not my problem.

I lived all over Ukraine, son. Lviv longest. But also Kharkiv, Sumy, Kyiv, Odessa. And those are just the addresses. Traveled all over that country on and off for nearly a decade by bus, train, and BlaBlaCar. As a European, you slurp European talking points, have probably never set foot in Ukraine, and look silly trying to educate me about that country. Croissants and lattes are for pansies.

There wasn't a single strawman in either of my posts. Just the uncomfortable contradiction that if Russia is this awful threat, they're only so because Obama was asleep at the wheel and even advocated for helping them off the mat.

The other option is they aren't quite the threat we're told. That would absolve Obama of what otherwise amounts to gross political neglect, the beefy donations to the right politicians not withstanding.

The other uncomfortable truth in my posts was the fact china far exceeds the threat of Russia, yet we do nothing but watch them flex their geopolitical muscle. Why?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

Why wouldn't they have been?

Good question. So, if you assume they were, why didn’t we respond more forcefully to those actions?

 

[BlueSince92]

Hopefully this was at least an hvt but looks like it was just a truck full of jackwagon nobodies. Guess you can waste these resources when someone else writes you a blank check






There wasn't a single strawman in either of my posts. Just the uncomfortable contradiction that if Russia is this awful threat, they're only so because Obama was asleep at the wheel and even advocated for helping them off the mat.

The other option is they aren't quite the threat we're told. That would absolve Obama of what otherwise amounts to gross political neglect, the beefy donations to the right politicians not withstanding.

The other uncomfortable truth in my posts was the fact china far exceeds the threat of Russia, yet we do nothing but watch them flex their geopolitical muscle. Why?

I am perfectly cool with this because my message was never to people dumb enough to miss a straw man argument that blatant even when it’s pointed out to them. Windbag, you may proceed.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I am perfectly cool with this because my message was never to people dumb enough to miss a straw man argument that blatant even when it’s pointed out to them. Windbag, you may proceed.

Either you don't know what a strawman is or you know you can't contest the points. I know for sure the latter is true. I don't think the former is.

 

[BlueSince92]

Either you don't know what a strawman is or you know you can't contest the points. I know for sure the latter is true. I don't think the former is.

I don’t have any problem with people who disagree with me. I learn lots of stuff all the time from people who disagree with me. I’m sure I could learn from you while disagreeing with you and you could learn from me while disagreeing with me. But you didn’t chime in to disagree with me. You chimed in to come across as BMOC mocking something I never came close to saying. “Lol”

I didn’t say that everything I disagreed with was Russian misinformation. I didn’t say anything that could be extrapolated to mean I thought everything I disagreed with was Russian misinformation.

It’s your insecurity that makes you need to approach conversations with that sort of vicious false characterization. Feeling like you won’t be accepted if you say something only as cool as the truth. I pity you in your current state and I wish for better for you. But I don’t feel the need to tolerate your little beta habits in your current condition.

 

[Bill Cosby]

I don’t have any problem with people who disagree with me. I learn lots of stuff all the time from people who disagree with me. I’m sure I could learn from you while disagreeing with you and you could learn from me while disagreeing with me. But you didn’t chime in to disagree with me. You chimed in to come across as BMOC mocking something I never came close to saying. “Lol”

I didn’t say that everything I disagreed with was Russian misinformation. I didn’t say anything that could be extrapolated to mean I thought everything I disagreed with was Russian misinformation.

It’s your insecurity that makes you need to approach conversations with that sort of vicious false characterization. Feeling like you won’t be accepted if you say something only as cool as the truth. I pity you in your current state and I wish for better for you. But I don’t feel the need to tolerate your little beta habits in your current condition.

When someone mocks you, then lays out a laundry list of detailed arguments unrelated to that specific mocking, that’s not a strawman.

 

[vhcat70]

Good question. So, if you assume they were, why didn’t we respond more forcefully to those actions?

It's 9 years later. What shape Ukraine was in to resist & be helped then I don't know.

 

[vhcat70]

The other uncomfortable truth in my posts was the fact china far exceeds the threat of Russia, yet we do nothing but watch them flex their geopolitical muscle. Why?

Agree on the China threat. Where are they invading & the resisters are seeking our help?

 

[Caveman Catfan]

It's 9 years later. What shape Ukraine was in to resist & be helped then I don't know.

So, that aggressive action WAS NOT a threat to the US’s relationship with NATO? His motivation has changed?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Agree on the China threat. Where are they invading & the resisters are seeking our help?

Physical invasion? None. However the financial and political dominations are vast and much more effective.

That's why they're so much more dangerous. Russia is old school bribing and attacking. China plays the Uber long game and gets it's tendrils in everything, such that they effectively slowly conquer without firing a shot. Yet they're allowed to operate with impunity. Probably because their tendrils reach deep into the politicians of the US and other western nations

 

[SosaUK1987]

Physical invasion? None. However the financial and political dominations are vast and much more effective.

That's why they're so much more dangerous. Russia is old school bribing and attacking. China plays the Uber long game and gets it's tendrils in everything, such that they effectively slowly conquer without firing a shot. Yet they're allowed to operate with impunity. Probably because their tendrils reach deep into the politicians of the US and other western nations

Chinas been preparing for a fight against the US for decades too.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Chinas been preparing for a fight against the US for decades too.

Worse. They infiltrated every level of government, education, media, entertainment , tech, etc. There won't even be a fight. We will just toss them the keys

They essentially annexed Australia while we did nothing. Not to mention Tibet, Taiwan, and probably others.

 

[SosaUK1987]

Worse. They infiltrated every level of government, education, media, entertainment , tech, etc. There won't even be a fight. We will just toss them the keys

They essentially annexed Australia while we did nothing. Not to mention Tibet, Taiwan, and probably others.

Plus, I assume you’ve seen reports about them having police stations over here?

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Plus, I assume you’ve seen reports about them having police stations over here?

I have not

 

[SosaUK1987]

I have not

Oh wow. Look it up. I know for sure one was in NY.

Here

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Agree on the China threat. Where are they invading & the resisters are seeking our help?

Timely

Oh wow. Look it up. I know for sure one was in NY.

Here

Should be a leading story everywhere yet they always get incredibly favorable treatment. Money well spent

 

[vhcat70]

Timely

View embedded media

This dispute has been going on for 75 years with India also claiming China-controlled territory. Even so, is India seeking our help? But still true this is occurring.

 

[rudd1]

-using a very conservative estimate of 113b allocated for aid to the Ukraine...each *federal tax paying* household in the US has sent $2,000 to fund this deal.

 

[vhcat70]

So, that aggressive action WAS NOT a threat to the US’s relationship with NATO? His motivation has changed?

Don't see how you reach that conclusion. What I thought I meant & said was that I didn't know if Ukraine was in shape to offer significant resistance in 2014. Ergo, the US couldn't help in any way then short of US Ukraine invasion/heavy bombing to stop them. I certainly think that the more Russia takes territory in Ukraine, including what they have taken, it increases risk to NATO - and the Pacific.

Why are Baltic states closing borders with Belarus other than to prevent destabilization to their countries?

 

[vhcat70]

-using a very conservative estimate of 113b allocated for aid to the Ukraine...each *federal tax paying* household in the US has sent $2,000 to fund this deal.

Well no. The top 10% of taxpayers pay roughly 3/4 of the income taxes. So they paid on average $15K. Whereas the other 90% paid $57 on average. Oh yes, higher income folks skew Dim.