The NBA Sucks

[mj2k10]

Like when the Lakers had Wilt, West and Baylor or Kareem, Magic and Worthy? Or the Celtics had Russell, Jones and Hondo or Bird, McHale and Parrish?

It's always been the formula for greatness. And back then the draft worked totally differently.

For some reason, folks were fine with superteams when they weren't built through free agent decisions.

And the thing with the Lakers was that Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq (and Gasol to a much lesser extent) basically traded themselves there. We can pretend that their original teams (or 2nd team, in Wilt's case) had some kind of choice, but from a practical perspective, they didn't.

They weren't joining preexisting great teams except in Wilt's case, but they knew they were going to have an excellent chance to win big, since SoCal has always been a highly desirable location, especially when it comes to the NBA.

This era will end sooner than people think. LeBron is 33 with a ton of mileage. Hard to see him being what he is now for any more than 3 more seasons. Golden State will have to start to shed some parts, even if certain guys are willing to take less than they can get.

I do have to say, though, that it would be pretty cool if the Celtics maintain what they have right now and manage to dethrone the Warriors at some point in the next few years. Not because I'm any kind of Celtic fan, but because I think the NBA would benefit if a team could win it all without really having a top 10 player. The NBA has been thoroughly dominated by individual stars, and to show that you can build and coach a team to overcome that could be seen as progress.

 

[THOTKing]

Talent in the NBA is too widely dispersed because there are way too many teams. Due to this 80% of the teams are trash. In that type of environment it's devastating when a team is able to assemble multiple all-stars.

 

[GonzoCat90]

And the thing with the Lakers was that Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq (and Gasol to a much lesser extent) basically traded themselves there. We can pretend that their original teams (or 2nd team, in Wilt's case) had some kind of choice, but from a practical perspective, they didn't.

They weren't joining preexisting great teams except in Wilt's case, but they knew they were going to have an excellent chance to win big, since SoCal has always been a highly desirable location, especially when it comes to the NBA.

This era will end sooner than people think. LeBron is 33 with a ton of mileage. Hard to see him being what he is now for any more than 3 more seasons. Golden State will have to start to shed some parts, even if certain guys are willing to take less than they can get.

I do have to say, though, that it would be pretty cool if the Celtics maintain what they have right now and manage to dethrone the Warriors at some point in the next few years. Not because I'm any kind of Celtic fan, but because I think the NBA would benefit if a team could win it all without really having a top 10 player. The NBA has been thoroughly dominated by individual stars, and to show that you can build and coach a team to overcome that could be seen as progress.

Good point about the Lakers free agents. Even as a Lakers fan, our history is essentially strong-arming the opposition into giving us their elite players at a discount trade price for risk of losing them for nothing. It's no coincidence that the free agent prestige has fallen since TV/Internet has made it easy to be a star in any city.

As for the Celtics, I think what ultimately happens is that Ainge pulls another Lakers-like move and fleeces some mediocre franchise for a top-10 guy. I don't think their plan has ever been to win it with all these young guys they've drafted. It's to compile assets to trade.

When Hayward is back healthy, I think within the next 2 seasons we see Boston trade Brown/Rozier/other young piece and a pick for a guy like Anthony Davis, Porzingis, Towns, etc.

They also know no one is beating the Warriors as currently constructed. So the smart move has been to go young, load up on assets, and position yourself to take them down in 2-3 years when age and free agency starts to catch up to them.

That's what the Sixers were doing, but with new management and a bit of success I believe they're about to do something rash to try and win now.

 

[GonzoCat90]

Talent in the NBA is too widely dispersed because there are way too many teams. Due to this 80% of the teams are trash. In that type of environment it's devastating when a team is able to assemble multiple all-stars.

It's not this as much as it is the nature of basketball. With just five guys on the court, if you can grab two of the 5-6 best players, that's a massive advantage. Being able to have two other top 20 guys makes you almost unstoppable.

You could contract to 20 teams instead of 30 and the elite talent at the top would still make the Warriors ridiculous because it wouldn't be the true difference makers that would be moving.

The fight for second place would be better because the bench pieces would be great, but you'd still be hard-pressed to put together 4 top 20 guys that perfectly fit the system they're in unless it's adding a few superstars to LeBron or improving his bench.

 

[mj2k10]

Good point about the Lakers free agents. Even as a Lakers fan, our history is essentially strong-arming the opposition into giving us their elite players at a discount trade price for risk of losing them for nothing. It's no coincidence that the free agent prestige has fallen since TV/Internet has made it easy to be a star in any city.

As for the Celtics, I think what ultimately happens is that Ainge pulls another Lakers-like move and fleeces some mediocre franchise for a top-10 guy. I don't think their plan has ever been to win it with all these young guys they've drafted. It's to compile assets to trade.

When Hayward is back healthy, I think within the next 2 seasons we see Boston trade Brown/Rozier/other young piece and a pick for a guy like Anthony Davis, Porzingis, Towns, etc.

They also know no one is beating the Warriors as currently constructed. So the smart move has been to go young, load up on assets, and position yourself to take them down in 2-3 years when age and free agency starts to catch up to them.

That's what the Sixers were doing, but with new management and a bit of success I believe they're about to do something rash to try and win now.

Agree about the Sixers, but I think the Celtics need to keep the same thing in mind. Because honestly, I'm not sure KAT or Porzingis puts them over the top. I'm not even sure that KAT or Porzingis makes them any better than they are right now. Al Horford is no slouch, and I have to think his contract would need to be jettisoned for the Celtics to get either of those guys.

AD, yes, because AD is just at another level.

 

[ObjectivelyModerate]

Competitive balance in the NBA has been completely destroyed in the "Super team" era. Why is that important? If you know who is going to win, it isn't fun to watch unless your team is the Super team. How many times has Lebron James been challenged in the Eastern Conference since he joined Miami (with Wade and Bosh)? Outside of this year--probably zero. The Warriors were better than anyone else before Durant joined (they collapsed against an excellent Cleveland team after being up 3-1). With Durant, GS will win at least 4 in a row unless there is an injury or major trade. Why even watch the NBA if you know the winner before the season starts.

As for the comparison to college "Super teams", there is no comparison. With March Madness's one-and-done playoff format, any team, even dominant ones (2015) can be knocked out. With a team like Golden State, who owned the best regular season record in NBA history and then added the second best player in the league, only boredom or injury will stop them from winning it all. That is not fun to watch unless you are a GS fan. This is why I hardly watch the NBA anymore. Superstar players feel like they have to join other superstars to win. Michael Jordan would have never joined the Pistons just to win a championship. Today's superstars don't have that kind of competitive drive.

 

[ruppcat]

The warriors have killed the NBA. They shouldn’t be able to stack their team like this. KD leaving OKC for a 73 win regular season team was the worst thing that could happen to this league. The NBA playoffs used to be one of my favorite post seasons in sports and KD and the dubs have killed it. Not sure how to fix it unless the NBA makes major changes such as a franchise tag making the best players stay put or LBJ goes to Houston this summer. Either way this just isn’t fun to watch

Isn't that kind of the idea....to get as many of the best players on your team as possible??

 

[VikingCat21]

I'm a little late to the party but I'll throw my two cents in. This is how I view the Warriors super-team. They drafted the core of their team. Steph, Klay, Draymond, and Harrison Barnes were all drafted by the Warriors. They added good role players around them and built a championship team. The next year they set a new record for most regular season wins but then lost in the finals after Harrison Barnes played absolutely terrible for two months straight. The Warriors knew the only weakness they had was at the SF position and the best SF in the NBA just happened to be a FA. So they get rid of Barnes and sign KD. They've only won 1 title at this point, not exactly a dynasty yet. The Warriors are no different than any franchise in the NBA. They are all trying to do the same thing, the Warriors have just done it better than everyone else so far. I'm not a Warriors fan, but I really enjoy watching them play. KD joining forces with the Warriors was the smart thing to do for him and it doesn't take away from the fact that he is one of the all time greats. It's all about winning titles.

 

[GonzoCat90]

By the way, if you hate the idea of the Warriors, your real enemy is the max contract.

In a world where teams have to pay Chandler Parsons the same money another team is paying LeBron James, there is every incentive for the max contract guys to play together, and the max contract is far from representative of the competitive (and economic) value of the truly elite players.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

The game is also evolving. Golden State is not as invincible as people think, and the Rockets can certainly beat them in a 7-game series..

..if the Rockets could get out of their own way.

 

[YouKay]

The Calipari and UK comparisons to KD and GSW is lame. I’d argue Cal doesn’t have a dynasty right now due to only winning 1 title in his tenure. The Warriors clearly are a dynasty and don’t look to be stopping anytime soon. And I’ll harp it on one more time, you can’t compare the NBA and NCAA at all due to the different formats of post season play. They both play with basketballs but that’s about where the comparisons should stop.

If the NCAA Final Four were a best of 7 then Cal would have won 4 of them. If the NBA playoffs were single elimination on a neutral floor they would look a lot different too!

 

[GonzoCat90]

It's pretty silly to compare 18 year old amateurs to highly-paid professionals, regardless of the format. They both play basketball, but aside from that, looking for parallels is pointless.

 

[caneintally]

Talent in the NBA is too widely dispersed because there are way too many teams. Due to this 80% of the teams are trash. In that type of environment it's devastating when a team is able to assemble multiple all-stars.

Not going to read 4 pages of this thread but this is correct. The NBA is my favorite sports league for sure though. I love the Jags in the NFL and I love the Cubs in MLB but I can't watch any NFL or MLB game just for fun. I can watch any NBA game for the most part . I do despise the Warriors though as it takes all the fun out of it if a team has 4 top 25 players . I want Lebron to go to Houston just to put GS in their place . I am cool with any team having 3 elite players ( like GS did before Durant) but 4 just makes it impossible for anyone to hope to win against them. Numerous teams have 2-3 studs and that is fine.

 

[JonathanW]

If it was your favorite team you wouldn't be mad. It's a free market. Can't do anything about it if they all take pay cuts to play together under that cap.

That is part of the problem with professional sports as a whole.
On the labor side, you want a "free-market", it is the right think to do for the players as wage-earning citizens.
But on the fan side, you don't want a totally free market, you want some level of balance, you want the fans of each team to believe that "this could be their year" or "we are only a couple years away". But this level of fan optimism is in complete contrast to the free-market system. The free-market system is not always "in the best interest of the game".

Every sport has their flaws. There is nothing keeping the Yankees from, say over a 5 year period, signing a team of C-Sanchez, 1b-Goldschmidt, 2b-J.Ramirez, SS-Correia, 3B-Arenado, LF-Judge, CF-Trout, RF-Betts, DH-Stanton, SP-Kershaw, Sale, Kluber, Serevino, Carrasco. Would that team, with a decent bench cost them close to $500M/yr? Sure. But they would probably be able to make a profit still.

The reason the free market may affect the NBA more easily is that with one Star player, you instantly have a potential play-off team, with 2 Star players you have a contender, and with 3 Star players it is championship or bust. There are only 5 guys on the court at a time for each team, so it doesn't take as many signings to make a big impact.
There is a salary cap structure in place in the NBA, but it's soft with ways around it. And teams have figured out you pay the stars whatever they want, and fill the gaps on the cheap.

One thing the NBA should consider is draft pick compensation. It could be done in a way based on the contract size/value, only for UFA signings, and such that you might not totally discourage it (e.g. you lose your 1st round pick, but you get an extra pick at the end of the 1st round, OR you get an extra pick 10 spots later).

 

[kydmb99]

The game is also evolving. Golden State is not as invincible as people think, and the Rockets can certainly beat them in a 7-game series..

..if the Rockets could get out of their own way.

Actually I'm pretty sure GS is as invincible as people think. They're on a totally different level than the rest of the league.

 

[GonzoCat90]

The game is also evolving. Golden State is not as invincible as people think, and the Rockets can certainly beat them in a 7-game series..

..if the Rockets could get out of their own way.

Don't do that to yourself, buddy. You'll get one more win.

 

[FrankUnderwood]

If LeBron can get torched for leaving a team like Cleveland that was about as bad as a professional team gets, KD can get torched for leaving a very good OKC team to go to an all star squad. Regardless of how LeBron did it, he didn't have 1/5 the talent OKC had on their roster.

 

[FrankUnderwood]

The NBA has always been like this. You have one or two really good teams each year and you know who's going to win the championship before the season starts for the most part. The 90s Bulls, the San Antonio Spurs teams over the years are the LA Lakers with Kobe and Shaq. Mr. Super team Creator himself LeBron with the Miami Heat and I can go on

Rondo, Pierce and Garnett also did the whole super team...well before LeBron did the "super team"

 

[LineSkiCat14]

Don't do that to yourself, buddy. You'll get one more win.

You don't think if Harden pulls his head out of his ass that they can't compete with Golden State? They did beat them by 30 in game 2.

I think GSW is a better team, and more talented. But the Rockets have a winning system, and if they have home court advantage, I think they can absolutely win this series. If the improbable happens, and they win game 4.. the series is back to being Houston's to lose.

 

[Bluegrass79]

not enough elite talent to go around in the nBA. Most teams are basically college all star teams. Go look at the roster of a Brooklyn etc....THEIR roster is high level college talent players. The Knicks are the same way.

 

[KingOfBBN]

If LeBron can get torched for leaving a team like Cleveland that was about as bad as a professional team gets, KD can get torched for leaving a very good OKC team to go to an all star squad. Regardless of how LeBron did it, he didn't have 1/5 the talent OKC had on their roster.

The 2010 Cavs won 61 games and were the one seed. The 2016 OKC Thunder won 55 games and was the three seed that year.

No argument about the rest of the point.

 

[THOTKing]

It's not this as much as it is the nature of basketball. With just five guys on the court, if you can grab two of the 5-6 best players, that's a massive advantage. Being able to have two other top 20 guys makes you almost unstoppable.

You could contract to 20 teams instead of 30 and the elite talent at the top would still make the Warriors ridiculous because it wouldn't be the true difference makers that would be moving.

The fight for second place would be better because the bench pieces would be great, but you'd still be hard-pressed to put together 4 top 20 guys that perfectly fit the system they're in unless it's adding a few superstars to LeBron or improving his bench.

The difference makers would not move in free agency but you would have a much better chance of building an elite team through the draft if you had fewer teams drafting. Imagine if a team like Washington could count on adding difference makers every year through the draft. Middle of the road teams don't even really make the draft a priority because there aren't enough quality players left after the bottom feeders make their picks.

 

[GonzoCat90]

The difference makers would not move in free agency but you would have a much better chance of building an elite team through the draft if you had fewer teams drafting. Imagine if a team like Washington could count on adding difference makers every year through the draft. Middle of the road teams don't even really make the draft a priority because there aren't enough quality players left after the bottom feeders make their picks.

That's true, but it would also make the elite teams harder to beat. If Golden State's bench was even better, they're even harder to beat.

Role players aren't going to beat KD/Curry/Thompson/Draymond. That is going to take multiple stars, and the stars that could do it would just be on teams with better help around them, not joined together like the Warriors have. John Wall playing with Paul Milsap instead of Morris/Gortat isn't putting them over the hump.

 

[THOTKing]

Rondo, Pierce and Garnett also did the whole super team...well before LeBron did the "super team"

When this happened they were not top 10 players. This started with Lebron, Wade and Bosh. GS took it to the next level with KD, Steph, Klay and Draymond. People underestimate how good Klay is because he isn't as flashy as KD and Steph. Having him as a third option is unfair.

 

[GonzoCat90]

I think GSW is a better team, and more talented. But the Rockets have a winning system, and if they have home court advantage, I think they can absolutely win this series. If the improbable happens, and they win game 4.. the series is back to being Houston's to lose.

No series is anyone's to lose but the Warriors. It took Mega-LeBron, Kyrie playing like a clutch hall of famer and Steph being less than 100% to beat them *before* they added Durant.

Iso ball and hoping Chris Paul and James Harden perform perfectly in the conference finals with Mike D'Antoni in charge is not a winning system. It's proven to be a sucker's bet for about a decade now.

Like I said, the Rockets shoot well enough that they'll probably have it rolling at home in one game and take another win, but this one is over in 6, and it's more likely to be over in 5 games than in 7 now that Steph has figured out James Harden can't guard him.

 

[shaudyshaud]

Rondo, Pierce and Garnett also did the whole super team...well before LeBron did the "super team"

I didn’t have a problem with Bron doing it but I’m not sure why folks mention the Boston team . Rondo was already on the team via the draft. Allen and KG were traded there because their old teams decided it was time to start over

 

[UKcats1988]

And it will always be said that he had to join up with a loaded roaster to get it done. He’s an elite beta. Doesn’t matter if he cares or not.

And I’m not so sure he doesn’t care. Guy got caught using a burner account on social media taking up for himself.

The 2010 Cavs won 61 games and were the one seed. The 2016 OKC Thunder won 47 games and was the three seed that year.

No argument about the rest of the point.

OKC won 55 games in 2016, KD’s last year.

 

[THOTKing]

That's true, but it would also make the elite teams harder to beat. If Golden State's bench was even better, they're even harder to beat.

Role players aren't going to beat KD/Curry/Thompson/Draymond. That is going to take multiple stars, and the stars that could do it would just be on teams with better help around them, not joined together like the Warriors have. John Wall playing with Paul Milsap instead of Morris/Gortat isn't putting them over the hump.

Golden State is an outlier in all of this because there isn't a model where you can even the playing field when one team has that many top players. But when looking at the rest of the league, you would see better parity and fewer terrible teams if the talent wasn't so widely dispersed.

 

[BlueRunner11]

I'm a little late to the party but I'll throw my two cents in. This is how I view the Warriors super-team. They drafted the core of their team. Steph, Klay, Draymond, and Harrison Barnes were all drafted by the Warriors. They added good role players around them and built a championship team. The next year they set a new record for most regular season wins but then lost in the finals after Harrison Barnes played absolutely terrible for two months straight. The Warriors knew the only weakness they had was at the SF position and the best SF in the NBA just happened to be a FA. So they get rid of Barnes and sign KD. They've only won 1 title at this point, not exactly a dynasty yet. The Warriors are no different than any franchise in the NBA. They are all trying to do the same thing, the Warriors have just done it better than everyone else so far. I'm not a Warriors fan, but I really enjoy watching them play. KD joining forces with the Warriors was the smart thing to do for him and it doesn't take away from the fact that he is one of the all time greats. It's all about winning titles.

Most accurate and reasonable post from a non fan yet.

 

[morgousky]

Most accurate and reasonable post from a non fan yet.

I thought mine was pretty reasonable.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

No series is anyone's to lose but the Warriors. It took Mega-LeBron, Kyrie playing like a clutch hall of famer and Steph being less than 100% to beat them *before* they added Durant.

Iso ball and hoping Chris Paul and James Harden perform perfectly in the conference finals with Mike D'Antoni in charge is not a winning system. It's proven to be a sucker's bet for about a decade now.

Like I said, the Rockets shoot well enough that they'll probably have it rolling at home in one game and take another win, but this one is over in 6, and it's more likely to be over in 5 games than in 7 now that Steph has figured out James Harden can't guard him.

I think they deserve a bit more credit. They broke their franchise win record, had to figure out a new team, and dealt with nagging injuries for CP3. We all know full well how good they are when CP3/Harden/Capela are on the floor together (as ESPN loves to remind us).

Golden State is still the better team, they are still the favorites. But let's not pretend that Houston didn't just go full retard, for not one but two games now. There really wasn't anything extra that GSW did, from a defensive standpoint. We did it to ourselves. This series is probably 2-1 in Houstons favor if they just stuck to their game plan. ISO, but iso in the first 5 seconds and move the ball if nothing opens up. Harden is doing another disappearing act like he did the last two seasons

 

[GonzoCat90]

I think they deserve a bit more credit. They broke their franchise win record, had to figure out a new team, and dealt with nagging injuries for CP3. We all know full well how good they are when CP3/Harden/Capela are on the floor together (as ESPN loves to remind us).

Golden State is still the better team, they are still the favorites. But let's not pretend that Houston didn't just go full retard, for not one but two games now. There really wasn't anything extra that GSW did, from a defensive standpoint. We did it to ourselves. This series is probably 2-1 in Houstons favor if they just stuck to their game plan. ISO, but iso in the first 5 seconds and move the ball if nothing opens up. Harden is doing another disappearing act like he did the last two seasons

You're being a fan right now. I promise you, from an outsider's perspective without all of that 'what if' optimism, it's done.

Golden State makes teams look bad. They take your best shot (first quarter of game 1) and still beat you. Nothing was given away in Game 1. They took it. The effort it takes to beat that team for four quarters isn't something anyone is going to do four times in seven tries without some injury help.

Besides, a lot of the "we did it to ourselves," is who you guys are. That's who your two stars and coach have been. Harden can't give the effort it takes on both ends for 4 games. He's unguardable but he carries too much of the load.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I never thought there was a great chance to begin with. Because I do think GSW has been sandbagging all year..

Not sure what else to say, it seems most of the NBA world saw Houston go entirely away from what works. Houston didn't spend all season giving the ball to Eric Gordon with 3 seconds to shoot. GSW had SOME impact.. so did Harden trying to play hero ball because he still has PTSD from the Spurs 2017 series.

Houston decides to move the ball around in game 2, and what do you know, a 30pt win.

A lot of this is on them.

 

[UKUGA]

If it was your favorite team you wouldn't be mad. It's a free market. Can't do anything about it if they all take pay cuts to play together under that cap.

It’s not a free market. It’s very restrictive market governed by a collective bargaining agreement.

GSW benefited from a significant spike in the salary cap the same off-season that Durant was a UFA.

 

[crawfords corner]

The Warriors don't get any blame in this. They did what any franchise would do if Kevin Durant was a possibility- sign him. Kevin Durant on the other hand, well, I wouldn't want him on my team is the nicest thing I can think of.

 

[Born and raised Big Blue]

The reason I hate the NBA is someone could Win by 22 and lose by 41 next game.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

It’s not a free market. It’s very restrictive market governed by a collective bargaining agreement.

GSW benefited from a significant spike in the salary cap the same off-season that Durant was a UFA.

They had a few things bounce their way and always made smart moves. A lot went right for them. Curry's ankle problems, and lack of supporting cast, kept him from being seen as a franchise player. He signs a 4-year 40 million deal or something and then blows up. How awesome is that if you're a GSW fan? You get a 30mil/year player for 10mil/year.. Certainly changes what you're able to do.

They draft Klay to provide a huge help for Curry's lack of defense, and make it so teams can't throw bodies at either one of them. Grabbing iggy for 12 mil a year was a great move as well.

 

[Wall2Wall]

Free agency is a part of the game. It can lead to super teams but also helps players who are penalized by their college success. What other profession besides sports (mainly football & basketball) can you be the top of your class only to be selected by the worst franchise in the industry? If a guy gets drafted #1, puts in the time during his rookie contract but the franchise isn't doing much to help him win then absolutely he should be allowed to seek out other teams who are interested in his talents.

The Warriors getting Durant is the outcome of a franchise making all of the right decisions. As a Knicks fan I am baffled each year how they have little to no cap space, most years don't even have a first round pick because they traded it away to get some guy well past his prime, and no current players who are attracting other superstars to come play with them in the freakin Mecca that is Madison Square Garden in New York City! Not only did the Warriors attract Durant, but they were able to make space for him while keeping all of their key components. It really was incredible to watch.

 

[kydmb99]

Warriors have done everything right. Drafting Steph, Klay Thompson and Draymond is what allowed them to sign KD.

Maybe what KD did is "cheap" or whatever, but there's no one here who wouldn't choose to upgrade employers and reach the pinnacle of their profession if they had the choice

 

[BlueRunner11]

I thought mine was pretty reasonable.

You know what? Youre right. It was decent.