Should UK have fired Tubby after Team Turmoil and brought back Rick Pitino?

[Son_Of_Saul]

By the time Maryland ended Kentucky's season in 2002, it was clear Tubby Smith wasn't going to be winning another title at Kentucky.

The Kentucky coach had just finished the year with his third straight 10 loss season, and was now being bounced early in a season when Kentucky had started the season as one of the favorites to win the national title. Tubby's grand campaign, led by veterans Tayshaun Prince and Keith Bogans, was over. Bogans would return the following season, but he had regressed as a junior and corroded his draft stock. The UK team had been branded "Team Turmoil" and saw various issues with a multitude of players, include Rashaad Carruth, Cory Sears, Gerald Fitch, Erik Daniels, Jules Camara, and Marvin Stone. Tubby's recruiting was progressively getting worse. He had failed once more to land a premier point guard, and it was clear that his best team at Kentucky - his 1998 squad - was mostly great because of consisting of 7 or 8 players who had multi-Final Four experience.

Looking back on it now, should UK have fired Tubby Smith in either 2001 or 2002 and re-hired Pitino? I think if I had been AD, I would have been willing to catch the momentary fire for such a move. Pitino was still only 48 or 49 years old, and would have had another 20 years in the tank. He gets you back faster than Tubby, Billy G, and probably would have at least matched Calipari inflated run at Kentucky. Surely Pitino could have won one more title at Kentucky to match Calipari.

Would you have had the guts to fire Tubby Smith and bring back Pitino? I think I would have. Fortune belongs to the bold.

 

[Smashcat]

lol

 

[SemperFiCat]

There is no question that I've never had more fun as a Kentucky fan than during the Pitino years. And I don't blame him for taking the Boston job. But we got Rick's best years, and nobody can say for certain that we wouldn't have ended up where UofL is now. Seems to be a character flaw with him. We know for sure we got his best years and non of the future garbage.

 

[kl40504]

By the time Maryland ended Kentucky's season in 2002, it was clear Tubby Smith wasn't going to be winning another title at Kentucky.

The Kentucky coach had just finished the year with his third straight 10 loss season, and was now being bounced early in a season when Kentucky had started the season as one of the favorites to win the national title. Tubby's grand campaign, led by veterans Tayshaun Prince and Keith Bogans, was over. Bogans would return the following season, but he had regressed as a junior and corroded his draft stock. The UK team had been branded "Team Turmoil" and saw various issues with a multitude of players, include Rashaad Carruth, Cory Sears, Gerald Fitch, Erik Daniels, Jules Camara, and Marvin Stone. Tubby's recruiting was progressively getting worse. He had failed once more to land a premier point guard, and it was clear that his best team at Kentucky - his 1998 squad - was mostly great because of consisting of 7 or 8 players who had multi-Final Four experience.

Looking back on it now, should UK have fired Tubby Smith in either 2001 or 2002 and re-hired Pitino? I think if I had been AD, I would have been willing to catch the momentary fire for such a move. Pitino was still only 48 or 49 years old, and would have had another 20 years in the tank. He gets you back faster than Tubby, Billy G, and probably would have at least matched Calipari inflated run at Kentucky. Surely Pitino could have won one more title at Kentucky to match Calipari.

Would you have had the guts to fire Tubby Smith and bring back Pitino? I think I would have. Fortune belongs to the bold.

No

 

[davekersey]

That almost happened. Long story

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

That almost happened. Long story

I remember hearing this, @davekersey . Care to share?

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

There is no question that I've never had more fun as a Kentucky fan than during the Pitino years. And I don't blame him for taking the Boston job. But we got Rick's best years, and nobody can say for certain that we wouldn't have ended up where UofL is now. Seems to be a character flaw with him. We know for sure we got his best years and non of the future garbage.

I agree on the character flaw. That said, Kentucky is a different animal. It makes even the "good" coaches look great. Just look at Tubby Smith. Bring back Pitino and we probably go to 5 or 6 more Final Fours.

 

[ULisnotmyman]

Hell, they should fire Cal and bring him back.

 

[kl40504]

I agree on the character flaw. That said, Kentucky is a different animal. It makes even the "good" coaches look great. Just look at Tubby Smith. Bring back Pitino and we probably go to 5 or 6 more Final Fours.

Not. Pitino didn't do it at Louisville because Cal beat him handily.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Not. Pitino didn't do it at Louisville because Cal beat him handily.

3 Final Fours at Louisville is decent.

Pitino probably gets that many at Kentucky between 2002-2010.

 

[kl40504]

3 Final Fours at Louisville is decent.

Pitino probably gets that many at Kentucky between 2002-2010.

He wouldn't have because he didn't. If he was so great why did he win zero titles in 16 years at Louisville.

 

[Big Cat fan]

Dave don't know shit. Just trolling for attention. Once he went to louisville the fans were done with him. The program was done with him. The op means trouble. Try to stick with your NBA takes nobody cares about. Plus if you can't beat an AZ team like that in the title game you should go to a little school to coach. Not Kentucky.

 

[UK90]

Dave don't know shit. Just trolling for attention. Once he went to louisville the fans were done with him. The program was done with him.

This. Pitino was already the UL coach in 02 (with a long term contract signed only a year before), and was at the time utterly hated by the UK fan base for his traitorous turncoat ways. There was absolutely no chance Tubby was gonna be fired in 02, much less replaced by the then-hated Pitino.

As for Kersey’s claim that it “almost happened” …c’mon, that dude had been so discredited by so many laughable proven false claims, I can’t believe anyone would still buy his attempts to play the insider.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Dave don't know shit. Just trolling for attention. Once he went to louisville the fans were done with him. The program was done with him. The op means trouble. Try to stick with your NBA takes nobody cares about. Plus if you can't beat an AZ team like that in the title game you should go to a little school to coach. Not Kentucky.

Mike Bibby
Michael Dickerson
Jason Terry

Those three went on to play a combined 38 years in the NBA. They weren't bad. That's before you even get to a pretty decent Miles Simon. We were also down Derek Anderson and Allen Edwards was at 50%.

I don't "mean trouble" either. That's silly. I'm merely generating some discussion, but go ahead and pretend you're offended.

 

[Big Cat fan]

Mike Bibby
Michael Dickerson
Jason Terry

Those three went on to play a combined 38 years in the NBA. They weren't bad. That's before you even get to a pretty decent Miles Simon. We were also down Derek Anderson and Allen Edwards was at 50%.

I don't "mean trouble" either. That's silly. I'm merely generating some discussion, but go ahead and pretend you're offended.

But listen you should relax. They were 25-9, not all world. How come Cal gets it on here or by fans when he losses as a favorite, but we make excuses for the 1997 team or the coach? We were 8 points favorits. Our fans suck.

 

[davekersey]

I remember hearing this, @davekersey . Care to share?

2001 four met to play golf in Naples, Florida. They were:
Outgoing Athletic Director C.M. Newton
Incoming AD (Newton's assistant) Larry Ivey
Rick Pitino
Tubby Smith

After golf the four met to discuss a plan brought up by Pitino and Smith.
The proposal was for Pitino to return as the head coach upon approval of certain terms, one of which was the total buyout of Smith's contract.

Tubby became unhappy after the initial success of 1998 and as time went on it accelerated for a number of reasons. Recruiting had been unsuccessful with assistants Finney, Hobbs, Sutton. Tubby's own pitch at recruiting either on in-homes or otherwise was not what prospective players wanted to hear. Naming Saul as team captain was the year of Tubby's angst. Death threats were made. Donna was scared for her family.

The proposal was made and Ivey said he would take it back to Lexington and present it to the Board. The result.....NO.....the Board rejected the proposal, citing the buyout would not happen especially when facing the monetary concerns in bringing in Pitino.

Tubby (and family) stayed, unhappy. Pitino was pleased to smack UK in the mouth by accepting the UL job.

Would it was a mistake to not take back Pitino? You decide.

 

[Louis_Skunt]

Is this really a debate? Pitino is by far a more superior coach than Tubby. I mean, look where they took over and look what they left us.
Pitino took us from dead rock bottom and made UK the premiere program in the country. Tubby took over the premiere program and we got worse, eventually turning into garbage. Pitino can win anywhere at any program, Tubby was terrible everywhere....even High Point.


Would Pitino have had scandals at UK? No. The hiring of Cal was the reason everything got crazy over there.

The biggest question mark in UK history is, what would have happened if Pitino never left?

 

[UK96GOAT]

But listen you should relax. They were 25-9, not all world. How come Cal gets it on here or by fans when he losses as a favorite, but we make excuses for the 1997 team or the coach? We were 8 points favorits. Our fans suck.

Losing in the championship game is different than losing to the peacocks in the first round, or Robert Morris in the first round of the NIT, or missing both the NCAA and NIT. I also think UK got hosed against Arizona in 1997. Arizona didn’t make one field goal in OT and the refs let them live at the foul line. For the game they shot 41 free throws to UKs 17. They made twice as many free throws as UK attempted. They made more free throws in OT than UK did the whole game.

 

[RingoLucky]

Corey sears was by far the best high school basketball player I’ve ever watched in person and with the right setup could have been really successful. For a little bit of insight, I think sears was 100X the player shepherd is for context. Dude was doing 360 dunks on everybody.
Was he a little cocky and needed to be centered? Definitely but so did everyone that got a scholly to kentucky.
he owns a car lot down in Corbin and has made a pretty good life for himself. Stand up dude.
Would have loved to see him finish it out at uk

 

[westerncat]

The past is past we need to look to the future.

 

[BigBlueFan19]

No, Pitino was and is a dandy coach, but it would have been hookers and cheating here instead of UL. Cal beat the brakes off Pitino on a regular basis as well, resulting in Pitino resorting to cheating. Cal is Rick’s biological father at this point.

 

[ArtLaibsGhost]

To answer posters 2 questions Yes and hell no

 

[Blueworld_3.0]

The events that DK outlined are kinda what I was told by someone who was once very close to the program.
RP left some burnt bridges inside UK when he left for Boston. Things got even worse when he took the UofL job.

Tubby's real downfall at UK was his hatred for the AAU elite camps scene. He disliked having to play the game that was necessary to funnel players to Lexington. Even back then the game was stacked against those who weren't among the "connected" of college basketball.

Don't know for certain about the death threats that supposedly happened. Might have been a real thing as every fanbase has a few nutjobs.

OTS just outstayed his welcome, especially after the 10 loss seasons became a regular thing. Then, he started covert negotiations (through his agent) with USCjr, Virginia and ultimately Minnesota. Resulting in him leaving without meeting with his UK players to say goodbye. Stuff like that is why I oppose his name being in the rafters.

 

[kybassfan]

Hell, they should fire Cal and bring him back.

Go back to U6. The dumpster that vamptino set ablaze.

 

[Big Cat fan]

Losing in the championship game is different than losing to the peacocks in the first round, or Robert Morris in the first round of the NIT, or missing both the NCAA and NIT. I also think UK got hosed against Arizona in 1997. Arizona didn’t make one field goal in OT and the refs let them live at the foul line. For the game they shot 41 free throws to UKs 17. They made twice as many free throws as UK attempted. They made more free throws in OT than UK did the whole game.

That running and gunning style was out dated. But 1999, It was dying and we played Epps of all people at point for it all. Lol, like stop you only liked it because you had hope while you were a kid then. Life was simple right, everything good right? Ok, we'll don't get that wrong with losing to a AZ game. Or blowing it against duke or Mich in 92-93 years. We had those in hand and both times the coach messed up by having his best player foul out of the 2 games. That's just poor coaching. What about that Fl St lost in the second round? Let me guess it was ESPN and refs that cost us those.

 

[c1doc]

Yes, and Tubby almost took the Hawks job at one point and Billy and Pelphrey were coming back to Lexington as well…🤷‍♂️

 

[BlueRunner11]

Should’ve? Yes. Chance of ever happening? Zero.

 

[BlueRunner11]

No, Pitino was and is a dandy coach, but it would have been hookers and cheating here instead of UL. Cal beat the brakes off Pitino on a regular basis as well, resulting in Pitino resorting to cheating. Cal is Rick’s biological father at this point.

Not necessarily. UK is in the spotlight way more than UL. RP is a piece of work for sure , but people usually won’t do the same things at church as they will in a sleazy dark alley way like UL.

 

[Zissou87]

Is this really a debate? Pitino is by far a more superior coach than Tubby. I mean, look where they took over and look what they left us.
Pitino took us from dead rock bottom and made UK the premiere program in the country. Tubby took over the premiere program and we got worse, eventually turning into garbage. Pitino can win anywhere at any program, Tubby was terrible everywhere....even High Point.


Would Pitino have had scandals at UK? No. The hiring of Cal was the reason everything got crazy over there.

The biggest question mark in UK history is, what would have happened if Pitino never left?

I was waiting for this take.

 

[sambowieshin]

Katina Powell, Karen Sypher, Porcini's tablecloth, and the Women's Clinic say hi.

 

[AGEE11]

Not so simple answer to @Son_Of_Saul yes, but the timing is a year sooner. You couldn't have gotten him in '02. The ship had sailed by then

I have heard a story similar to what @davekersey posted. I heard Tubby didn't want to leave and threatened to sue without a full buyout.

That's when we should have taken him. I always wondered why you keep Smith who agreed to leave showing his lack of love for the job even then.

As for all the cheating at UL. Never happens if RP is at UK. When the board wouldn't pay up for him, his ego lost it. He always thought he was bigger than UK. Thought going to UL would take the fans and winning with him and he fell on his face. Then he started cheating to try and win, especially after Cal came in.

 

[UKBB4Ever]

The first part yes, the second part no.

 

[kl40504]

3 Final Fours at Louisville is decent.

Pitino probably gets that many at Kentucky between 2002-2010.

UK fans might be highly upset with no championship and prostitutes and vacated title and probation and vacated wins and falling much farther behind Kansas in all time wins. Sure do miss all that excitement.

 

[BlueThunderstruck]

That running and gunning style was out dated. But 1999, It was dying and we played Epps of all people at point for it all. Lol, like stop you only liked it because you had hope while you were a kid then. Life was simple right, everything good right? Ok, we'll don't get that wrong with losing to a AZ game. Or blowing it against duke or Mich in 92-93 years. We had those in hand and both times the coach messed up by having his best player foul out of the 2 games. That's just poor coaching. What about that Fl St lost in the second round? Let me guess it was ESPN and refs that cost us those.

This is one dumb post. Pitino HAD his best player foul out? LOL. How did he foul them out? Did he blow the whistle and call a foul? Did he say, go out there and foul out? LOL. Oh, and we never lost to Florida State during the Pitino years, much less in the NCAA tournament. Lastly, Epps was one hell of a PG. He was a winner and made everyone else better. Give up your keyboard for a few weeks.

 

[BlueThunderstruck]

That running and gunning style was out dated. But 1999, It was dying and we played Epps of all people at point for it all. Lol, like stop you only liked it because you had hope while you were a kid then. Life was simple right, everything good right? Ok, we'll don't get that wrong with losing to a AZ game. Or blowing it against duke or Mich in 92-93 years. We had those in hand and both times the coach messed up by having his best player foul out of the 2 games. That's just poor coaching. What about that Fl St lost in the second round? Let me guess it was ESPN and refs that cost us those.

One more thing you got wrong. Anthony Epps’ last year at Uk was 1997, yet you claimed he was playing in 1999. Do you EVER get anything right?

 

[UKBrassowTipIN]

Should Mitch fired Stoops when you all "knew best" and wanted to bring in Petrino?

 

[SaltyCat22]

That running and gunning style was out dated. But 1999, It was dying and we played Epps of all people at point for it all. Lol, like stop you only liked it because you had hope while you were a kid then. Life was simple right, everything good right? Ok, we'll don't get that wrong with losing to a AZ game. Or blowing it against duke or Mich in 92-93 years. We had those in hand and both times the coach messed up by having his best player foul out of the 2 games. That's just poor coaching. What about that Fl St lost in the second round? Let me guess it was ESPN and refs that cost us those.

Did you ride the short bus?

 

[bthaunert]

Dave don't know shit. Just trolling for attention. Once he went to louisville the fans were done with him. The program was done with him. The op means trouble. Try to stick with your NBA takes nobody cares about. Plus if you can't beat an AZ team like that in the title game you should go to a little school to coach. Not Kentucky.

I think Dave is out of the loop now. I believe he was in the loop back then.

 

[saxonburgcat]

2001 four met to play golf in Naples, Florida. They were:
Outgoing Athletic Director C.M. Newton
Incoming AD (Newton's assistant) Larry Ivey
Rick Pitino
Tubby Smith

After golf the four met to discuss a plan brought up by Pitino and Smith.
The proposal was for Pitino to return as the head coach upon approval of certain terms, one of which was the total buyout of Smith's contract.

Tubby became unhappy after the initial success of 1998 and as time went on it accelerated for a number of reasons. Recruiting had been unsuccessful with assistants Finney, Hobbs, Sutton. Tubby's own pitch at recruiting either on in-homes or otherwise was not what prospective players wanted to hear. Naming Saul as team captain was the year of Tubby's angst. Death threats were made. Donna was scared for her family.

The proposal was made and Ivey said he would take it back to Lexington and present it to the Board. The result.....NO.....the Board rejected the proposal, citing the buyout would not happen especially when facing the monetary concerns in bringing in Pitino.

Tubby (and family) stayed, unhappy. Pitino was pleased to smack UK in the mouth by accepting the UL job.

Would it was a mistake to not take back Pitino? You decide.

I read an article around 2002 or so in which one of the national writers said that it was no secret that Tubby wanted out of Kentucky and he went on to discuss several stories about Tubby's lack of enthusiasm for recruiting. I found it interesting that when Tubby was at Memphis, Saul was quoted as saying that their philosophy of recruiting was to offer and if the kid doesn't accept immediately, they just move on. I had to wonder if that was Tubby's approach all along? It certain seems to match up with what I've read over the years.

 

[jrpross]

I think Dave is out of the loop now. I believe he was in the loop back then.

Fun fact; Dave was the one who actually turned the staff onto Gerald Fitch back in the day.