God could've easily forgave sin without killing his son. But also, if we don't sin at least a little bit then Jesus died for nothing.
POLL: Is there a God ??
- Thread starter megablue
- Start date
For the person who does not claim to be a good person, I inform that God is without sin. Period. He is the one and only. So the hypothetical sinless person is not possible.
You don’t think your sin deserves punishment or justice. I get that about you. But, again, you are telling us what you think could be done if you were God. It’s just not relevant.
According to the Bible, God himself committed plenty of sin, the greatest of which being murder. I get that I haven't read the Bible as much as you but God simply murdered people.
The great flood where he had Noah build the Ark, what happened to everyone else? The Plagues of Egypt where he ordered the murdering of first born children? How many people died because God commanded the Israelites to do so?
Let me throw it back to you in a way you may hopefully understand...
My wife gets killed by a drunk driver. I forgive the driver for his despicable act. But the drunk driver still has to be held accountable for his actions and serve his time. Let's say it is a 30 year sentence. If I forgive him, does that mean he still doesn't have to serve his sentence? I'm not going to serve his sentence. Would you serve his sentence?
It is the exact same principle why Jesus had to pay the ultimate price for our sin. Yes, God forgives us when we come to him in repentance and genuinely ask for His forgiveness, but someone still has to serve the time for my actions. Jesus did that for everyone.
And we are talking about all the sins of the world, that have happened, and that will happen. Murders, rape, infidelity, lying, cheating...you name it, everything. That is quite a laundry list that has to be made up for...only death on cross could satisfy that. Nothing else.
Hope that makes sense.
But all 3,999 think they’re right. Their magic books also believe their god is the one true god and everyone else is wrong.
I’m sorry, but that’s a helluva red flag.
I get what you're trying to say but in that scenario, Jesus dying for our sins is like your son serving time for the drunk driver who killed your wife, that doesn't make sense either. And since Jesus already died for everyone's sin then what's stop someone from willfully sinning then saying "well Jesus already died for all this sin I'm doing, I'm in the clear." Almost all Christians would think that's ridiculous, everyone who believes thinks that you have to do a lot more than just let Jesus take care of our sin so at that point, what did he die for when God could just be gracious and forgiving due to his love for us?
I know it is to you, and I understand why you think god and God are the same thing.
They are not. You can study these other "gods," and see for yourself what/who they are and why. They share everything in common with you the atheist (agnostic, secular humanist whatever), nothing with the believer in Christ. Indeed, they are all invariably just as hostile as you towards Him and for much the same rasons.
There's no god but God.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
So, with all the thousands of gods, hundreds of religions, and dozens that have a carrot/stick - reward/punishment system, what happens after you die if you only believe in one? So you’ve accepted one god and rejected all the rest. If you believe in an afterlife, isn’t there now one god that wants to reward your acceptance by putting you in heaven? And then dozens of others that want to punish your rejection by putting you in hell?
How can the conflict be reconciled? Fight it out amongst themselves? Draw straws? Does the winner get your entire soul? Or will they use that “wisdom of Solomon” logic and divide you up? So, like, your left arm goes to heaven, and lots of other sections of you wind up in various hells?
And can you try the Pascal’s wager game, expanded version, and accept all of them, thereby guaranteeing a spot in heaven? But then would your entire soul go to just one heaven, or would you still be divided up and bits of you go to dozens of heavens?
It seems very complex. It really would be so much easier with just one god. Why did man have to go and create so many?
How can the conflict be reconciled? Fight it out amongst themselves? Draw straws? Does the winner get your entire soul? Or will they use that “wisdom of Solomon” logic and divide you up? So, like, your left arm goes to heaven, and lots of other sections of you wind up in various hells?
And can you try the Pascal’s wager game, expanded version, and accept all of them, thereby guaranteeing a spot in heaven? But then would your entire soul go to just one heaven, or would you still be divided up and bits of you go to dozens of heavens?
It seems very complex. It really would be so much easier with just one god. Why did man have to go and create so many?
There's no god but God, and Pascal's wager won't get you anywhere. He is not deceived.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
But your own god acknowledges that there are others. When he supposedly gave Moses his top ten list of things you can’t do, he started off with this one.
1. You shall have no other God’s before me.
So, he tells you quite specifically to reject the other gods. If he was the onlyest one, why would he make this rule number one?
They, like you and other religions today, were making "gods" of their/your own design.
I don't think you are understanding...nobody except the culprit who killed my wife is going serve his sentence that makes up for what He did. Nobody...not me, not my child, not my neighbor, not you. Nobody is going to. Despite my forgiveness, he is stuck with his sentence.
Who is going to pay the price for all the sins of the world? All these nasty, abhorrent sins of this world? Not me. You gonna do it? Anyone capable of doing it? There has to be a punishment that fits the crime of humanity. Jesus left his throne in heaven, and came down and was the spotless sacrifice for us. He paid the price dude.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
So, you’re wrong about me making gods. I have no imaginary friends.
And when others made gods, and your god told you to reject them, he is acknowledging their existence, right? If he is the one true god, why even bring it up? Just show himself to the world and the others no longer exist. Because that’s the way gods work. They only exist as long as people believe in them. Once people stop believing, religions become myths.
And I'm saying that Jesus dying for our sins is the exact same thing as your son serving for the driver. Jesus is God's son, we sinned against God but God allowed his son to die for us. That story is equivalent to the driver killing your wife but you allowing your son to take the time in prison.
Your "god" is yourself. You literally think the world would be a better place if we all just thought like you and simply left Christianity behind.
It wouldn't.
This doesn't make any sense. God is real, imaginary "gods" are not, and atheists worshipping themselves, mistakenly thinking they "know" what's best, is making "gods" of themselves. You should reject such "gods." If God is real, and He is, then only He, and He alone, has the answers.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Pretty sure this is exactly what every religious person believes. “My god is real. Yours is imaginary”.
You are missing the point. I am not going to have my son serve his sentence, because the offender deserves the sentence. My son is not going to willingly serve his sentence. I am not going to willingly serve his sentence.
Jesus willingly came down to Earth to serve our sentence for us. Which is death. Somebody has to be held accountable dude.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
I’ve never thought that the world would be a better place if everyone left Christianity behind.
I’ve only thought that the world would be a better place if everyone, everywhere, left ALL religions behind.
And it would!
You dream Christian dreams, as that historian/philosopher conversation noted which Catman linked earlier, without appreciating it, i.e. Universality. It would only be a better place if/when all people were Christian (initially a derogatory term for little Christ), as in Christ like, not just socially or nominally "Christian."
That's what should be a red flag.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
Wtf does this even mean?
You’ve assumed you know how and what I think. You’ve assumed that I’ve made myself into a god
. And now you assume you know what I dream?
Not only have I met plenty of awful Christian’s, but I’ve read posts from plenty of awful atheists! People are people, and a large segment are pretty terrible. Elimination of one thing won’t dramatically change that imo
Heh, no man. You've posted what you think. Other religions do not seek to convert the whole world (Universality), well except Islam, which is a challenge to Christ.
You are saying your atheist "truth" is universal, that everyone would be better off thinking like you. They wouldn't. It would destroy the world (as it very nearly did with fascism and communism).
The Christian god is very primitive... like the people who invented him.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
You said the world would be a better place without Religions (Christianity included), and you gave a long list why.
Which is “thinking” like you.
You would still have those complainsmany of those problems were that to come to fruition, just in different forms, and you would have many that you don’t now currrntly in our myopic affluence that would be sprung on you too late for you to prevent them(like the horrors created by Marxism and Fascism in the 20th century, for example).
Your worldview does not, and indeed cannot, create the utopia you envision. The world can only be genuinely and sustainably bettered through Christ.
That’s your opinion. Mine is that that the wisdom of man ( philosophy, other religions, atheist humanism or scientific materialism, whatever) is foolishness, comparatively.
That was slippery! Congrats! You somehow managed to slip in "Principles for living at times" in place of God's actual endorsement of specific behaviors" which would be also be fairly considered to be morality..
At some level we can make words mean whatever we want them to mean, Jesus said he came to "fulfill the law, not abolish the law" and yet Jesus and the apostle Paul, speaking on behalf of Jesus through visions seems to turn the law completely upside down. No more being stoned to death for picking up a few sticks on the Sabbath!!! In fact..no more Sabbath!!! No more "genital mutilation!!! No more"eye for an eye", now you have to forgive your adversary indefinitely. No more being stoned for not honoring your mother and father-in fact, now, if you don't hate your mother and father, you can't be Jesus' disciple. I could go on and but I think the point is made.
You seem triggered about things you don’t understand.
You, as usual, failed to make the point you think you made.
You should take up these questions with theologians/pastors or the like if the answers given to you by random Catpaw Christians are insufficient and don't make sense to you.
The answer(s) is in Him.
WildcatfaninOhio
All-American
If nothing else; this thread makes for an entertaining read.
I’ve had fun so far! And been laughing my ass off throughout.
Neither side moves an inch. You don't know what you are talking about. No you don't. No you don't lol.
Not triggered at all. Entertained, perhaps.
I know perspectives very, but seems to me that you don't understand your own book. Perhaps you just didn't know the scope of what's actually in there?
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