POLITICAL THREAD

[ram1955]

What are your suggestions to "build up the bottom"?
Top and bottom are relative terms. If the top continues to rise at a rate equal to the bottom then nothing is gained. If the top rises faster, ground is lost.
All societies need ditch diggers. We need teachers, cooks, cashiers, etc. If everyone had a Harvard education that would still be the case.
We can only use so many doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers...somebody is going to be stuck digging the ditches.

How did being CEO go from being worth 25 times the average worker's wages to more than 400 times those wages?...at a time that those workers productivity skyrocketed? It is because the the elite club decided that they would take it. They control the distribution of profits and they've decided that they deserve a larger share and they have the power to take that bigger piece of the pie.
It's kind of hard to "build up the bottom" without cooperation from the top. The pie is only so large.

Stockholders value CEO's that generate profits. It only makes sense to exponentially increase the salary of a CEO who can maximize worker productivity while reducing costs. About 20 years ago, I heard a debate on radio about a guy considered to be a very successful CEO...he had raised profits by cutting 10K jobs or so. Got a big raise. If you hold stock in that company, would you value that CEO? If that stock was a big chunk of your retirement portfolio, what would you think about that guy.
The debate had to do with social responsibility vs serving stockholders.

In my former profession, we operated on a salary schedule. Raises usually around 4% a year. Over time , due to nothing more than compounding interest, the guy starting with the $75K job his salary started to get significantly larger than a person that started with a $30K job. Nothing nefarious, just compounding.
I agree, we need people to do all types of work. My wife picked up a part-time "retirement" job working in a daycare. She works only with babies. I went to an outing with her one evening and was amazed at how the young mothers made over my wife. It occurred to me how much they valued having a good, mature person caring for their babies. She makes $7 an hour.

What's gotten out of whack is that jobs like hers and others are essential/important jobs. We've decided that some are more deserving of more money than others. I love capitalism, but that is a flaw in the system. To the mothers leaving babes with my wife, her services are just as important as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. We need people like her just as much as we need company managers, lawyers, teachers. I don't know the answer, but I'm not a supporter of taking money from the wealthy...that's stealing. At the same time, IMO, people that perform valuable services to society should be paid enough to live reasonably secure financially. You smart guys have to figure out how to do it.

 

[ram1955]

Some people in this country are really content with doing little to nothing and living with just enough to get by so they can live this way. I know this because, I know a few people in the circles that I run in who actually say this. Just yesterday, I went with four people from our Karate School to a tournament near Tulsa to help judge. One of these guys who is 55 years old (a black belt who trains almost everyday) collects social security disability money (about $750.00 a month) and does not work. After the tournament was over, they had an auction in which I payed $ 1200.00 for a Japanese sword from Temple made in WWII and a Japanese rifle used in WWII. The auction was used to raise money for Missionary work. Well, on the way home, he said to me, "What are you rich?". I told him no but, make enough for me to buy something like this from time to time. He said that he wished could could afford a new motorcycle because his old panhead was going belly up. He said he needed a job that would give him around $400.00 dollars a month so he could afford it. I told him that he could make that just about anywhere. His response was that he did not want a real job, just one that he could be payed $100.00 dollars a week under the table and not have to work many hours to do it. He ask if I could give him some kind of work and pay him in this manner. Of course my answer was no.

BTW, this guy has also voted Democrat his whole life and will vote Hillary because republicans are rich and the democrats are the only ones who try to give them money to help their situation more.

Don't have a problem with helping the poor, but I see people like this every day. The war on poverty has generated two generations of people that look at life this way. We've taken away the motivation and drive to seek a better life. We've drained guys like this of a God-given sense of pride that would drive him to be productive. Again, no problem with caring for the poor, wealth distribution, etc...as long as it means they are working and performing tasks that benefit society.

 

[Levibooty]

I personally think we are seeing the result of the devaluation of labor over several decades. Watching mexican workers walk into construction sites and take high paying skilled jobs they are not skilled to perform or supervising american foremen, mind you not laborers, at Fort Knox reinforced my belief that american businessmen are the least patriotic entity in this country. The only thing american businessmen are loyal to is their bank account. We all know if american businessmen didn't hire illegal workers there would not be as big of an enticement to come here to start with. Given the choice between profiting off cheap labor and patriotism--- american businessmen are the kings of rationalization.

Let the impotent sputtering denials begin.

 

[jamo0001]

Sarah Palin pledges to help defeat Paul Ryan in his primary contest because he hasn't supported Trump.

 

[krazykats]

Personally I didn't ever see what was so special about Paul Ryan except he was young and the GOP saw a good chance at president in him someday.

Honestly he kind of sucks.

 

[WayneDougan]

Our Sec of State tells graduates to prepare for a "borderless world".

He called Trump a carnival barker and then said prepare for a borderless world. How could you possibly lose this election? I think I could win 90% of people's vote who make under $200K per year by going with an anti-globalist message.

 

[fuzz77]

Stockholders value CEO's that generate profits. It only makes sense to exponentially increase the salary of a CEO who can maximize worker productivity while reducing costs. About 20 years ago, I heard a debate on radio about a guy considered to be a very successful CEO...he had raised profits by cutting 10K jobs or so. Got a big raise. If you hold stock in that company, would you value that CEO? If that stock was a big chunk of your retirement portfolio, what would you think about that guy.
The debate had to do with social responsibility vs serving stockholders.

In my former profession, we operated on a salary schedule. Raises usually around 4% a year. Over time , due to nothing more than compounding interest, the guy starting with the $75K job his salary started to get significantly larger than a person that started with a $30K job. Nothing nefarious, just compounding.
I agree, we need people to do all types of work. My wife picked up a part-time "retirement" job working in a daycare. She works only with babies. I went to an outing with her one evening and was amazed at how the young mothers made over my wife. It occurred to me how much they valued having a good, mature person caring for their babies. She makes $7 an hour.

What's gotten out of whack is that jobs like hers and others are essential/important jobs. We've decided that some are more deserving of more money than others. I love capitalism, but that is a flaw in the system. To the mothers leaving babes with my wife, her services are just as important as the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. We need people like her just as much as we need company managers, lawyers, teachers. I don't know the answer, but I'm not a supporter of taking money from the wealthy...that's stealing. At the same time, IMO, people that perform valuable services to society should be paid enough to live reasonably secure financially. You smart guys have to figure out how to do it.

ram, as a stockholder I don't mind rewarding the CEO that improved the performance of the company but taking a holistic view, how did his move of cutting 10K jobs hurt other stocks I own and maybe even his own company in the long term? And isn't a $1M bonus sufficient?...not $10M on top of a $5M salary. I'd rather that other $9M go to pay stockholder dividends or to have saved some of those lost jobs. Beyond that, what if those profits are only short term. By cutting workers you have also cut your own market. Henry Ford said by raising the pay of his workers he created customers for his products. If you are cutting workforce then you are losing customers in the long term.

But you hit on exactly what I have been saying. What has become out of whack is what we value and how much we value it over other things. The thing is, most of the people making those decisions are the ones that benefit the most from those very decisions. The Board of Directors for a company are most likely all very large stockholders in that company. The CEO that is paid multiple times more in a year than most people will earn in their lifetimes are insulated from the long term effects of their decisions.

Not paying management x times more than labor isn't taking money from them...it's re-evaluating worth.

We can never expect that any position is going to voluntarily lower its expected value. I don't think that it is coincidence that the titantic shift in income distribution began when we started lowering tax rates, especially at the top. I don't like taxes any more than anyone else but if a return to a more progressive tax structure resulted in a flatter distribution of income, I don't see how that could be seen as a bad thing.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

What are your suggestions to "build up the bottom"?
Top and bottom are relative terms. If the top continues to rise at a rate equal to the bottom then nothing is gained. If the top rises faster, ground is lost.
All societies need ditch diggers. We need teachers, cooks, cashiers, etc. If everyone had a Harvard education that would still be the case.
We can only use so many doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers...somebody is going to be stuck digging the ditches.

How did being CEO go from being worth 25 times the average worker's wages to more than 400 times those wages?...at a time that those workers productivity skyrocketed? It is because the the elite club decided that they would take it. They control the distribution of profits and they've decided that they deserve a larger share and they have the power to take that bigger piece of the pie.
It's kind of hard to "build up the bottom" without cooperation from the top. The pie is only so large.

First, its fallacious to think the top and the bottom are related in a way that you suggest. Theyre not. Each person is running their own race. How much a plumber makes is in no way related to the income of a CEO. Both jobs are important, but each is valuable based on its value to the market. It isnt some devious ploy to keep people down.

Second, you equate education with success. Not true. Especially today, where many college grads are leaving school with tons of debt, while trade workers are earning a really good wage at their craft relatively debt free. As college grads continue to go to school, the marketability if trade workers will only go up. Further, intelligence is actually the marketable trait; and education isnt always evidence of intelligence.

Another reason CEO pay has ballooned is inflation. Our government has fired up the printing press the last several years, and it hurts. Since the CEO pay was higher to begin with, the rate of inflation will have a bigger end result.

On the whole, if rich people think someone has the chance to earn them more money, thats who will be hired. Again, it isnt some nefarious ploy.

The pie is only so large, but it isnt a zero sum game as you admitted previously. The losers in the free market are the lazy, the stupid and those with bad luck. No, not everyone will be billionaires, and that isnt a reasonable financial goal for most of us. But everyone will have the chance to be a billionaire, which isnt true with other financial models.

Sarah Palin pledges to help defeat Paul Ryan in his primary contest because he hasn't supported Trump.

Ryan is terrible. Palin is worse. Can Palin just go away? Good lord.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

First, its fallacious to think the top and the bottom are related in a way that you suggest. Theyre not. Each person is running their own race. How much a plumber makes is in no way related to the income of a CEO. Both jobs are important, but each is valuable based on its value to the market. It isnt some devious ploy to keep people down.

Second, you equate education with success. Not true. Especially today, where many college grads are leaving school with tons of debt, while trade workers are earning a really good wage at their craft relatively debt free. As college grads continue to go to school, the marketability if trade workers will only go up. Further, intelligence is actually the marketable trait; and education isnt always evidence of intelligence.

Another reason CEO pay has ballooned is inflation. Our government has fired up the printing press the last several years, and it hurts. Since the CEO pay was higher to begin with, the rate of inflation will have a bigger end result.

On the whole, if rich people think someone has the chance to earn them more money, thats who will be hired. Again, it isnt some nefarious ploy.

The pie is only so large, but it isnt a zero sum game as you admitted previously. The losers in the free market are the lazy, the stupid and those with bad luck. No, not everyone will be billionaires, and that isnt a reasonable financial goal for most of us. But everyone will have the chance to be a billionaire, which isnt true with other financial models.



Ryan is terrible. Palin is worse. Can Palin just go away? Good lord.

http://www.alternet.org/story/14968..._#1_--_there's_no_such_thing_as_a_free_market

 

[ram1955]

ram, as a stockholder I don't mind rewarding the CEO that improved the performance of the company but taking a holistic view, how did his move of cutting 10K jobs hurt other stocks I own and maybe even his own company in the long term? And isn't a $1M bonus sufficient?...not $10M on top of a $5M salary.

Not if a competitor is willing to offer him $5M.

As for the more progressive tax plan you mentioned. I'm not for giving a single, red cent if it's going to be used on benefits for those who choose not to work or for programs that give benefits to anyone , other than the very small number of persons completely incapable of doing something of benefit to society. I don't know where it puts me on the liberal/Conservative scale, but I wouldn't mind my taxes being raised if I knew people were going to be put to work in programs like the Roosevelt works programs. That's my view on sharing with/meeting obligations to the poor.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

http://www.alternet.org/story/149688/23_things_they_don't_tell_you_about_capitalism:_item_#1_--_there's_no_such_thing_as_a_free_market

Terrible. Even worse, there are people who read and believe that drivel.

The biggest point of the article, and biggest criticism of capitalism in general, is "its not fair". It doesn't pretend to be. Nothing is fair. Capitalism is just the most fair system.

 

[Bill Derington]

First, its fallacious to think the top and the bottom are related in a way that you suggest. Theyre not. Each person is running their own race. How much a plumber makes is in no way related to the income of a CEO. Both jobs are important, but each is valuable based on its value to the market. It isnt some devious ploy to keep people down.

Second, you equate education with success. Not true. Especially today, where many college grads are leaving school with tons of debt, while trade workers are earning a really good wage at their craft relatively debt free. As college grads continue to go to school, the marketability if trade workers will only go up. Further, intelligence is actually the marketable trait; and education isnt always evidence of intelligence.

Another reason CEO pay has ballooned is inflation. Our government has fired up the printing press the last several years, and it hurts. Since the CEO pay was higher to begin with, the rate of inflation will have a bigger end result.

On the whole, if rich people think someone has the chance to earn them more money, thats who will be hired. Again, it isnt some nefarious ploy.

The pie is only so large, but it isnt a zero sum game as you admitted previously. The losers in the free market are the lazy, the stupid and those with bad luck. No, not everyone will be billionaires, and that isnt a reasonable financial goal for most of us. But everyone will have the chance to be a billionaire, which isnt true with other financial models.



Ryan is terrible. Palin is worse. Can Palin just go away? Good lord.

I don't have a problem with a CEO making a ton of money. My issue is the bonus he received of 10 million was because he axed American workers making a decent wage and replaced them with dirt cheap 3rd world workers.
You're right that they won't ever reel themselves in. That's why it's up to citizens to say we value our society more than cheaply made products.
Everyone of the plants that have moved have left a void in a community. People that now require Govt assistance, crime and drugs, not to mention small businesses that supported the plants and workers.
We can't afford to go down this road any longer.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Terrible. Even worse, there are people who read and believe that drivel.

The biggest point of the article, and biggest criticism of capitalism in general, is "its not fair". It doesn't pretend to be. Nothing is fair. Capitalism is just the most fair system.

Yeah. Or teach it at Cambridge. Drivel.

 

[the nail at the foul line]

The right will run an independent candidate. I could not vote for Trump. Hillary likely to win every state minus Oklahoma, Wyoming and Alaska. Trump will self destruct before November to keep his deal with the Clinton's.

See you in 2020.

Let's see how bad this prediction is.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Yeah. Or teach it at Cambridge. Drivel.

"Other people say he's smart, so he must be right". That's the best you have? You could address my points.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I don't have a problem with a CEO making a ton of money. My issue is the bonus he received of 10 million was because he axed American workers making a decent wage and replaced them with dirt cheap 3rd world workers.
You're right that they won't ever reel themselves in. That's why it's up to citizens to say we value our society more than cheaply made products.
Everyone of the plants that have moved have left a void in a community. People that now require Govt assistance, crime and drugs, not to mention small businesses that supported the plants and workers.
We can't afford to go down this road any longer.

I dont like that either, but they're using the rules to their advantage, just like all of us do daily. Just like Cal does with 1 and done.

Blame the people who made the rules. Not those who use the rules to their advantage.

 

[Bill Derington]

I dont like that either, but they're using the rules to their advantage, just like all of us do daily. Just like Cal does with 1 and done.

Blame the people who made the rules. Not those who use the rules to their advantage.

I'm not blaming them, I'm blaming the politicians who were thinking short term that put in place.
Now it's on us, everyone of us has witnessed a plant close that was the life blood of a small community, then we bitch about more people than ever on Govt assistance.
Then only way politicians will change is if we force their hand, and we do that at the ballot box. As long as corporations are buying their votes, and we just sit around nothing will change.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

"Other people say he's smart, so he must be right". That's the best you have? You could address my points.

What points? You oversimplify, like most people on here, including my self, the entire article to "capitalism isn't fair". I'm not an economist. I'm not very smart. I can't argue specifics. But it makes perfect sense to me and I will accept it until I find something that changes my mind. The difference between you and I, bigblue, is that I know that I know nothing. You seem to have it all figured out though. So congrats.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

I'm not blaming them, I'm blaming the politicians who were thinking short term that put in place.
Now it's on us, everyone of us has witnessed a plant close that was the life blood of a small community, then we bitch about more people than ever on Govt assistance.
Then only way politicians will change is if we force their hand, and we do that at the ballot box. As long as corporations are buying their votes, and we just sit around nothing will change.

Can't disagree.

What points? You oversimplify, like most people on here, including my self, the entire article to "capitalism isn't fair". I'm not an economist. I'm not very smart. I can't argue specifics. But it makes perfect sense to me and I will accept it until I find something that changes my mind. The difference between you and I, bigblue, is that I know that I know nothing. You seemed to have it all figured out though. So congrats.

Nice to see you still avoiding the debate, and basically saying "ya what he said!". I'm sure you'll still believe it, because you won't give it independent thought.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Can't disagree.



Nice to see you still avoiding the debate, and basically saying "ya what he said!". I'm sure you'll still believe it, because you won't give it independent thought.

Not giving something independent thought. That's rich. Especially coming from you. I posted the article. That was my "debate". That was my counter to your free market point. You rejected it and claimed it drivel. You didn't dissect any of the info in the article. You oversimplified it. And you want to tell me that I'm avoiding a debate. That I'm the one not addressing points. You think you're a smart cookie. It's cool. Most people do.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Not giving something independent thought. That's rich. Especially coming from you. I posted the article. That was my "debate". That was my counter to your free market point. You rejected it and claimed it drivel. You didn't dissect any of the info in the article. You oversimplified it. And you want to tell me that I'm avoiding a debate. That I'm the one not addressing points. You think you're a smart cookie. It's cool. Most people do.

I didn't oversimplify. The entire article is based on a flawed premise/strawman. Capitalism isn't purported to be fair. Just more fair than the rest.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

I didn't oversimplify. The entire article is based on a flawed premise/strawman. Capitalism isn't purported to be fair. Just more fair than the rest.

Ok.

 

[Supreme Lord Z]

Capitalism is a rush to the bottom. If you are not willing to cut corners and gouge workers and slash benefits, then you will be usurped by someone that is. Over time it creates a small ultra wealthy ruling class, no middle class, and a massive group of an exploited oppressed poverty class.

So you perpetually have to find new victims hence the rush to globalism. Globalism is the only way capitalism can survive once it has wrecked its host country as ours has been. Capitalism is economic and social cannibalism. Once you've eaten everyone then you must find a replacement. All capitalists are sovereign-less globalists by necessity.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

Capitalism is a rush to the bottom. If you are not willing to cut corners and gouge workers and slash benefits, then you will be usurped by someone that is. Over time it creates a small ultra wealthy ruling class, no middle class, and a massive group of an exploited oppressed poverty class.

So you perpetually have to find new victims hence the rush to globalism. Globalism is the only way capitalism can survive once it has wrecked its host country as ours has been. Capitalism is economic and social cannibalism. Once you've eaten everyone then you must find a replacement. All capitalists are sovereign-less globalists by necessity.

Theres truth to your post, but it isnt quite to that degree. An employer is tasked with negotiating the lowest wage for his employee; and vice versa. If the employee is valuable, he will be compensated as such. If the employee is more valuable to another employer than his current one; he'll change jobs for a better wage.

Same thing with buyers and sellers. Constant tension with one side trying to go high, with the other low. Globalism increases the employee/customer pool, so of course its preferable to employers and others with means.

Capitalism is potentially vicious, cuthroat, and unfair. But its the best system available.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

The ceo of Amazon made 6 billion in twenty minutes last Thursday. Meanwhile in Sudan..

 

[jamo0001]

Some of Trump's biggest policy flip flops:

-- Minimum wage
- November GOP debate: "We have to leave [the minimum wage] the way it is. It's already too high."
- Wednesday, to CNN: "I'm actually different from most Republicans. I'm open to doing something with it."
-- Taxes on the wealthy
- August, to Fox News: "That's why they're donating all that money to Hillary. They're not paying enough tax."
- October's version of his tax plan: Cuts top income tax rate from 39.6% to 25%, cap gains from 23.8% to 20%
-- Health Care
- August GOP debate: "[Single-payer] works well in Canada. It works incredibly well in Scotland."
- Now opposes single-payer....I think?
-- Immigration
- August: releases a plan to restrict H1B's
- October GOP debate: "I'm all in favor of keeping these [H1B] people here."
- March: releases another plan to "end forever" the use of H1B as a source of labor
-- Abortion
- Decades of "pro-choice" statements
- Suddenly "pro-life, very pro-life!"


But we have to keep in mind that this election isn't about policy. It's about Sticking It To the Man (using a billionaire New Yorker to do so)

 

[bigblueinsanity]

The ceo of Amazon made 6 billion in twenty minutes last Thursday. Meanwhile in Sudan..

Its terrible that anyone has to live like this. But it isnt a US economy problem.

 

[krazykats]

DaBoss is clearly a socialist. That CEO at some point worked his ass off so his children didn't have to face the challenges as that baby did.......but it's clearly the CEO's fault that a) he worked hard and positioned himself to reap a reward, and b) that that child is going through that because of said CEO's success.

Way to tie that together for us!

 

[From-the-stands]

http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/279067-10-issues-dividing-donald-trump-and-paul-ryan

-- Minimum wage
- November GOP debate: "We have to leave [the minimum wage] the way it is. It's already too high."
- Wednesday, to CNN: "I'm actually different from most Republicans. I'm open to doing something with it."
-- Taxes on the wealthy
- August, to Fox News: "That's why they're donating all that money to Hillary. They're not paying enough tax."
- October's version of his tax plan: Cuts top income tax rate from 39.6% to 25%, cap gains from 23.8% to 20%
-- Health Care
- August GOP debate: "[Single-payer] works well in Canada. It works incredibly well in Scotland."
- Now opposes single-payer....I think?
-- Immigration
- August: releases a plan to restrict H1B's
- October GOP debate: "I'm all in favor of keeping these [H1B] people here."
- March: releases another plan to "end forever" the use of H1B as a source of labor
-- Abortion
- Decades of "pro-choice" statements
- Suddenly "pro-life, very pro-life!"


But we have to keep in mind that this election isn't about policy. It's about Sticking It To the Man (using a billionaire New Yorker to do so)[/QUOTE]
Lots of differences between Trump and the dearly held positions of the establishment. It's nice knowing the far right has been denied another election cycle.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

The ceo of Amazon made 6 billion in twenty minutes last Thursday. Meanwhile in Sudan..

Anymore liberal strawman arguments? Figured you'd throw in war against women, racism, etc next

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Its terrible that anyone has to live like this. But it isnt a US economy problem.

My bad. Mean while in America..

 

[DaBossIsBack]

DaBoss is clearly a socialist. That CEO at some point worked his ass off so his children didn't have to face the challenges as that baby did.......but it's clearly the CEO's fault that a) he worked hard and positioned himself to reap a reward, and b) that that child is going through that because of said CEO's success.

Way to tie that together for us!

Point was to show both ends of the spectrum. Didn't say it was the ceo's fault. If this system is the best system we as humans can create then we suck.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Anymore liberal strawman arguments? Figured you'd throw in war against women, racism, etc next

Straw man. I bet you were so excited when you learned what that was.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

My bad. Mean while in America..

Assuming this pic is even from the US - what would you propose? Since you have yet to offer any input other than just randomly posting pics?

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Assuming this pic is even from the US - what would you propose? Since you have yet to offer any input other than just randomly posting pics?

As if poverty like this, if not worse, doesn't exist in America. Have you ever been to EKY? As a teen I helped my mom move families from homes like this one. I've been in homes that literally made me vomit. No running water. No heat. Just terrible living conditions. But all those folks were just lazy and looking for handouts right? I was raised to help people that need help. I'm raising my son to do the same. I don't have definite answers or solutions. I think the best place to start though is to admit that we can do better and that this isn't the best we can do.

 

[bigblueinsanity]

As if poverty like this, if not worse, doesn't exist in America. Have you ever been to EKY? As a teen I helped my mom move families from homes like this one. I've been in homes that literally made me vomit. No running water. No heat. Just terrible living conditions. But all those folks were just lazy and looking for handouts right? I was raised to help people that need help. I'm raising my son to do the same. I don't have definite answers or solutions. I think the best place to start though is to admit that we can do better and that this isn't the best we can do.

Im from EKY. Im here as I type this. So Im well aware of the financial difficulties facing the people here and the region. Much of it the blame of the government for loading the area with handouts that removed the will to work from an otherwise industrious people.

In fact, the government intrusion on the free market in the way of handouts have also prevented accurate free market information, which would otherwise require people here to move to areas with more job opportunities. Theres nothing wrong with a safety net. But continued handouts with no plan to get off the teet is a devastating approach for both government and individual. Give people the chance to succeed. Not the chance to live on the draw forever. The pics you post show a failure of government safety net programs. So youve inadvertently admitted to government incompetence.

Ill pose the same question on here that I have a few times: since you and a few other posters say you believe in income redistribution, etc - why arent you donating all of your excess income already? Theres no law preventing it. Yet none of you do it.

 

[Levibooty]

It is amazing how people confuse what is just with what is fair.

 

[krazykats]

Im from EKY. Im here as I type this. So Im well aware of the financial difficulties facing the people here and the region. Much of it the blame of the government for loading the area with handouts that removed the will to work from an otherwise industrious people.

In fact, the government intrusion on the free market in the way of handouts have also prevented accurate free market information, which would otherwise require people here to move to areas with more job opportunities. Theres nothing wrong with a safety net. But continued handouts with no plan to get off the teet is a devastating approach for both government and individual. Give people the chance to succeed. Not the chance to live on the draw forever. The pics you post show a failure of government safety net programs. So youve inadvertently admitted to government incompetence.

Ill pose the same question on here that I have a few times: since you and a few other posters say you believe in income redistribution, etc - why arent you donating all of your excess income already? Theres no law preventing it. Yet none of you do it.

It would be a lot easier for democrats if you'd quit pushing your logical message on this board. I mean that's great that working hard, barely getting by, eventually gaining financial success and all the while having a little self respect worked for you. It isn't for everyone.

So if you'd kindly just stop posting so we can hear about what the govt owes us so we can sit around and wait for people like yourself to pay taxes so they can get their check things would go a lot smoother around here.

 

[krazykats]

Point was to show both ends of the spectrum. Didn't say it was the ceo's fault. If this system is the best system we as humans can create then we suck.

My point still stands. This system is built to work hard and eventually get ahead. No one goes from poor to rich overnight without some life changing invention or lottery type circumstance.

My parents were poor and worked hard. Now in their 60's they have a little bit. I'm better off but not rich by any means, and assume when I'm in my 60s I'll be better off than them. Hopefully that goes for my children too but we will see.

 

[DaBossIsBack]

Im from EKY. Im here as I type this. So Im well aware of the financial difficulties facing the people here and the region. Much of it the blame of the government for loading the area with handouts that removed the will to work from an otherwise industrious people.

In fact, the government intrusion on the free market in the way of handouts have also prevented accurate free market information, which would otherwise require people here to move to areas with more job opportunities. Theres nothing wrong with a safety net. But continued handouts with no plan to get off the teet is a devastating approach for both government and individual. Give people the chance to succeed. Not the chance to live on the draw forever. The pics you post show a failure of government safety net programs. So youve inadvertently admitted to government incompetence.

Ill pose the same question on here that I have a few times: since you and a few other posters say you believe in income redistribution, etc - why arent you donating all of your excess income already? Theres no law preventing it. Yet none of you do it.

I do. And I have a lot to donate. But I also donate my time. Which is even harder to come by. Where did I say the government is competent? Or that more government is the solution? I'm saying that what we have in place isn't working and it's past time to change it. In theory I'm a libertarian socialist/anarchist/anarcho-syndicalist, whatever you want to call it, which means I'm anything but big government. Have I suggested in the past using our tax dollars for things like universal health care, free tuition, etc? Yes. Under the current circumstances, if the government is going to tax us then I feel those dollars should be going toward the things I believe people need in order to live a healthy fulfilling life. And not perpetual warfare, drone assassinations, and overthrowing governments. There are other countries that are doing better than us. Are they smaller? Yes. Will those ways translate directly here? Probably not. Doesn't mean we can't borrow from them. If we can't scrap the whole thing and start over then we need to figure out a way to help those that need help and make the world a better place. What we are doing and continue to do isn't working.